Conference vicki::boats

After a season of hauling my anchor by hand, and being extremely lazy, last year
I checked tried an anchor ring.  I'll never haul an anchor by hand (mine at 
least) again.  You snap the ring around the anchor rode to a gloucester ball,
cleat the anchor line to a spring line cleat and drive away from the anchor.
The ball pulls the anchor up until it rests in the ring.  Stop the boat, and
pull the line in by hand.  Simple and best, cheap.  The ring ran me $20, but
they're $15 at shows.  A ball and 3 ft of line'll probably be another $20.
That's it.  Hardest part is having the room to do this if you're in a fleet.
I use it when I fish for anything and have to hook up.  Especially when we're
in > 200ft of water.  

Joe

    I second the anchor ring recommendation. It works real well. 
    Regards,
    Paul

    
        Saw it for the first time this past season. Quite a trick.

    
    P.S. Don't attempt it in an area with lots of lobster pots....
              ...you'll haul up more than the anchor.
    

    
    I've read .1 several times to try and 'see' how this works, but
    I can't get it. Pls explain? (w/out assuming I know what a Gloucester
    ball is).                                              
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mitchell
    

A gloucester ball is one of the big orange balls with a loop at the top
that you see out in the chunking fleet.  Nothing more than a bright colored 
float.  The ring is approximately a 6" dia metal circle with an opening at 
the top and 2 eyes.  The ring slide over the anchor line, and you clip
the float to the eyes effectively closing the circle.  When you drive away,
the boat pulls the anchor line through the ring.  Since the float should have
more bouyancy than the anchor, it lifts it from the bottom.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\

I'm no artist but this might help.



                      ______/  ___________[ ]
                     \        /            ||
                      \      /             ||
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(  )^^^^/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       float -->     o     /                -| ~~~~~~~~~
                     !    /
                     !   /         <-- anchor line cleated to spring line
                     !  /              
                     0 /0   <--  these 2 eyes are clipped together with a line 
                     ` |'         that is attached to the float
     ring ->         ( |)
                      --
                       |
                       |
                      /      <-- anchor line
                     /
                    /
                   /
                <--          <--  believe it or not this is the anchor
================================================================================

    
    Got it....thanks.
    
    

re .0:

The solution to your problem may depend on where and how you are
anchoring. The method suggested so far (which I've never tried or even
seen done) appears to require considerable room to manuever. It also
seems to require that, once the anchor is at the float, stopping the
boat and hauling the anchor rode aboard. If the rode is longish and if
there is much wind or current, you could drift quite a distance while
doing this. 

I'm a little confused by your terminology. A pulpit (to us sailors) is 
the railing (usually stainless steel tubing) at the bow. What you call 
a pulpit is usually called a bowsprit. The bending loads imposed on a 
bowsprit by a anchor rode can be tremendous in anything except a flat 
calm, so keep it as short as possible. The stainless steel weldment 
(made from 1/4 inch plate) that carries our anchor rode roller projects
about 4 inches over the bow.

If you're anchoring in a crowded anchorage with little room to manuever,
retrieving the anchor can be a real problem. (By the way, a Danforth 13S
might be on the small side for your boat.) Power windlasses, when used
with a rope rode, still require you to be at the bow since you must pull
the rode off the windlass drum and stow it. An all-chain rode will strip
off the gypsy (drum) and self-stow, but all-chain rodes are heavy and
expensive. 

The situation isn't all grim, however. Most anchors won't break out, 
once well-set, until you've brought in most of the rode (the bigger the 
anchor, the shorter the rode can be before the anchor breaks out). As 
long as the wind and sea aren't too bad, just stand at the bow (engines 
in neutral) and pull on the rode. After a bit the boat will begin to 
move forward. Just keep pulling in the rode and piling it on deck 
(be very careful to keep it from piling around your legs). Depending on 
the bottom and how well set the anchor is, the anchor will probably 
break out when the rode length is less then twice the depth of the 
water. When this happens, just get the anchor aboard as quickly as 
possible. It will take a bit of time for the boat to drift very far 
(though I suspect that powerboats with their larger windage and smaller 
draft than sailboats will drift faster than I am used to). This is 
basically how we recover our ground tackle (35lb anchor with 40' of 
chain and up to 300' of half-inch nylon rope). We sometimes have to use 
our manual windlass to break out the anchor. With a power windlass, life 
is much easier. Just use the windlass to pull in the rode and anchor, 
getting everything on deck before using the engines.

    The times (and the instances) where I heard the trick with the
    glouscester ball and ring most used was when you're out fishing
    and want to anchor in waters 200-300 ft. deep. 
    
    If you decide to move to 1/2 dozen different fishing areas over the 
    course of the day, this glouscester ball trick is just the thing.
    
    I'd hate to have to haul in 200-300 ft. of anchor line 4 or 5 times
    a day. I suppose thats what 1st mates are for...unfortuneatly my
    wife is uninterested in fishing and prefers only the filets entering
    the house free from blood & guts & fish heads.
    
    /MArk 

re                <<< Note 560.8 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>
>                                -< more ideas >-

> re .0:

> The solution to your problem may depend on where and how you are
> anchoring. The method suggested so far (which I've never tried or even
> seen done) appears to require considerable room to manuever. It also
> seems to require that, once the anchor is at the float, stopping the
> boat and hauling the anchor rode aboard. If the rode is longish and if
> there is much wind or current, you could drift quite a distance while
>doing this. 

	I seem to have read it a little differently (no surprise).

	I think the procedure is basically:

1)	loop the bouy/float/retrieval thing around the anchor rode
2)	retrieve as much rode as possible/practical, i.e. get close to 
	a 2:1 or less scope
3)	make fast the rode to a deck cleat
4)	"drive off",  using the bouy as a sort of pulley hook to the
	surface.
5)	stop later to get the rest of the rode and the anchor aboard;
	presumably where there is adequate space, it could be towed
	around for quite a while... (-:, (-: 

	R

    Just some random thoughts --
    
    	High Wind and/or current or tight quarters --- you loose!
        (other than with a self storing windlass)
    
    	More moderate condition alternatives:
    
    	1. I would think with some practice you could set your direction
    	   & engines such that you'd make no effective headway - just
    	   allivate the strain & pull it in. (I love twin screws)
                  
    and/or
    	2. How about walking the rode to your cockpit first - then lifting
    	   the anchor from a vantage much closer to your bridge ladder?
           This would have you anchored backwards (stern first) for
           a few moments; but, would eliminate the dangerous running
           about (with no one to assist the MOB)
    
    One other thought --
    
    	If you are doing this for things like fishing vs overnight:
    	You could get away with a light anchor and a cheap all nylon
        (no chain) rode --- if you did this you might find that a $4-500
    	self storing windlass (Powerwinch) could be hooked up rather
    	easily with a short/inexpensive roller.  For single handed fishing
    	this seems to be a good alternative (read: insurance policy)
    	as both raising & lowering could be done from the bridge.
    
    	Keep in mind that the G. Ball trick is to save some work -
    	it does not save time/distance/drift/.... & with twin screws
        you'd better be going in a straight line (or own some diving
        gear - in which case you'd need a buddy & wouldn't have this
        concern to start)
    
    If you come up with any good solution - be sure to post it here
    and possibly apply for a patent :>)
    
                             Good luck,
                                        Lou

    re: last
     The last reply raises a good point, and in my opinion a very bad
    point.
    
    Alot of people set and pull their anchor from the safety of the
    cockpit. Although it may look different, mount a davit, snatch
    block, and electric hauler towards the front of the cockpit. When
    looking at electric haulers, consider the speed they run at, I've
    been using the one set up for hauling lobster pots (110ft/min).
    The ones they claim are for anchors (55 ft/min) are too slow, you
    would be better using the ring and ball trick. The hauler that coils
    the rope under the deck may be an idea, but I would worry about
    the line tangling under the deck. Also, does it free spool the anchor
    to set it? If its set out to fast, the anchor may foul.
    
    I do alot of deep water fishing on very small pieces of bottom,
    so for a 25ft boat I use a 22lb anchor, 20 ft. of 5/16 chain
    and 3/8 rope. With this setup I can cut down on the amount of scope
    needed to fish 300 ft of water to around 400ft total. This will
    work in moderate winds, higher winds, I use a little more scope.
    
    As for the suggestion of leaving the boat in gear while on the bow
    pulling the anchor, I wouldn't even consider it, thats how people
    are lost at sea. They fall over and the boat is found going in circles
    with no one on board,                         
    
    BTW I do most of my fishing alone so anchoring and operating the
    boat single-handed was considered into when buying my boat. I have
    a walk-around cuddy that is very deep sided. It make raising and
    lowering the anchor easy on most days, although it is still a challenge
    in the 35 knot winds I fished in this month.
    
    Good luck
    Steve

    I've  got to agree with Steve that  leaving the engine engaged while
    away from the controls is just  too risky/Dangerous! If you were to
    fall over and have the boat run you over it would just ruin your day,
    not to mention the blood stains all over the hull.
    
    I bought a power  windlass last year but have not had time to make it
    operational as of yet ( This winters project, amoung others) My plan
    for operation is to have dual switchs to operate from the front deck 
    as well asfrom the  cockpit. Being that most windlasses are self
    tailing I will be able to go forward thru the hatch, take two turns
    around the winch and run the tailing anchor line back up to the cockpit
    helm wher I have control of both the engine and the windlass power.
    
    An extra bonus with the windlass is a special quick mount plate that
    I'm designing to mount it on the foredeck as well as bring the winch
    back to the cockpit for hauling lobster pots, tuna fish, or sunken
    treasures from the deep. I may even make a third plate so that I can
    use it on my truck.
    
    As far as fishing goes, if you can use  a small light anchor on
    light rode? Do it.  For max holding power  I use a 10 ft 5/8 chain with
    a very big shackle on the rode thimble to keep my danforth down. When
    diving and the boat is left unattended I use twin anchors at 30 degree 
    offsets for extra security.
    
                                            Walt
    

re .13:

>>>    As far as fishing goes, if you can use  a small light anchor on
>>>    light rode? Do it.  For max holding power  I use a 10 ft 5/8 chain with
>>>    a very big shackle on the rode thimble to keep my danforth down. When
>>>    diving and the boat is left unattended I use twin anchors at 30 degree 
>>>    offsets for extra security.
    
You may have a sense of false security. There will be a load on both anchors 
only as long as the wind/current/waves is from directly between your two 
anchors. As soon as the wind shifts more than a few degrees, all the load will
be on a single anchor. And wind direction is rarely constant for very long -- 
shifts of 10 to 20 degrees are frequent. Since you have a power windlass, why
not have real security by using a single heavy anchor? The only reason I see 
for using a light anchor and rode is ease of recovery. I wouldn't leave my 
boat unattended on a light anchor under any circumstances. 

By the way, I've been told by some long-time liveaboards that heavy chain
keeps a Danforth fluke anchor from digging in. They found that a short length
of small chain (a few feet of 1/4 inch) or no chain works better. Other 
anchors behave differently. Lots of chain should be used with CQR plows, for 
example. 

    re: Comments in .12, .13 (&.11)
    
    Gents,
    	
    	I agree fully (though I proposed it) that leaving the engine
    in gear, while the helm is un-attended, & one is alone is indeed
    a poor idea.
    
    	However I think you're kidding yourself with your rational -
    Admitted the turning props are a danger if one falls over; but,
    as far as lost at sea goes -- I don't know.
    
    	It would seem to me that once you break the anchor if you fall
    over board you'll never get back to the boat anyway.  If you had
    a 5 knot wind a 28' flying bridge Bertram will drift at 2-3 knots
    and I know I can't swim at that speed ( esp. if I were smart enough
    to have my PFD on).
    
    	At a minimum anyone on a boat alone should take a chapter from
    those we refer to as windbags (because although windy they are
    experianced) and ALWAYS be attached toa life line via a good harness!
    
    	My own personal feeling is - It's smarter not to boat alone,
    consider the fall that your knock youeself out on, a heart attact,
    a broken bone...... besides I enjoy the company.
    
    	If you really like th solitude do it up right -
    Get a windlass
    Wear a harness
    Wear a PFD
    Anchor where you have lots of room (as room converts to drifting
    time)
    And anything else that adds to your personal security.
    
    			Take care,
                                    Lou
    

    Oh why must I be so detailed in everything!
    
    I meant to say "Use a small anchor when you are fishing and will remain
    onboard" for this purpose I have a small danforth about 10 lbs. with a
    six foot chain of 1/2 on it.
    
    When I anchor up for diving and there will not be anybody on the boat.
    I use a pair of 20 plus pond danforths with 10 ft of chain on them.
    I find that the more chain the better when using a danforth.
    
    re: Harness and Lifeline. Great Idea Lou. It was required equipment in
    the Navy onboard Subs whenever we went topsides.
    
    I don't have an official harness onboard my boat, but do have a standup
    fishing harness that is a kidny belt style. I suppose its better than
    nothing.  Be sure you cleat off to a thru deck bolted fitting and not
    just somthing like a railing that will pull out its fasteners.
    
    Just for an idea. Lets try a MOB drill next summer and see who is
    really ready to handle it?
    
                                        Walt
    

    I spend alot of time boating alone and agree that wearing a line and
    harness makes the most sense, but I guess the restriction always
    seems to make me ignore my better judgement. I use to fish with a
    coworker who had a belt that contained a co2 cartridge and a floatation
    device. You pulled a cord to inflate it. It was compact and doubled
    as a utility belt for pliers and a knife. It seems like a more
    practical idea for myself. Has anyone seen these before. I'd love
    to know where I could get one...I've had people swim off the platform
    before in conditions that were fairly windy and no one had to struggle
    to get back to the boat (19ft) so I'm not to concerned about it getting
    away from me....
    
    Marty
    

re .15 and .16:

Wearing a safety harness is an excellent idea -- clipping the lanyard to a 
lifeline isn't. Lifelines tend (unfortunately) to be weak and unreliable. Clip 
to either a through-bolted fitting (eg, a strong padeye) or a strong jackline 
(eg, 1/2" dacron braided rope) running the length of the deck. I've done more 
than a little offshore sailing. On my boat harnesses are worn by everyone at 
night and during the day if alone on deck in other than very calm seas. I've
done some singlehanded sailing on my 32' boat and wear a harness at all times
when doing so. 

re .17:

Yes, a safety harness can be somewhat restrictive, but the general feeling 
among sailors is that falling overboard, especially if not attached to the 
boat, is usually fatal. In my view, it would be foolish to assume that 
you'll be able to get back aboard once you're away from the boat. This is 
especially true in cold waters (like off the NE coast). It doesn't take much 
time in the water or much injury to incapacitate you. 

in general:

Good safety harnesses aren't inexpensive -- the good ones (Switlik, Lirakis, 
Survival Technologies) are about $100. The cheap ones aren't strong enough and 
are dangerous in that they provide an unjustified feeling of safety. 'Tis 
interesting that virtually every sailboat has lifelines around the entire deck 
and virtually no powerboat does. Going forward on a friend's 32' powerboat 
worries me a lot -- too easy to fall off. A person in the water is 
surprisingly difficult to see at even a short distance.

re .17:

CO2 inflated lifevests are available from several sources. BOAT/US has them. 
Again, the good ones aren't cheap. My English Crewfit, which inflates 
automatically on immersion, is around $200 list. The manual model is about 
$140 list. Some inflatable vests provide around 20 lbs of floatation, which,
testing has shown, really isn't enough. 35 lbs (which the Crewfit has) is far
better. 

    re: .18,
    
    Alan, i don't quite agree with what your saying. You refer to
    sailboats with life lines etc. and that they are weak. 
    
    Now lets talk about some powerboats, mine is an 82 Silverton,
    the entire rail is welded to form one continuous piece.
    Its "1" stainless tubing, that is thru-bolted, with backing
    blocks, YOU COULD HAUL THE BOAT WITH IT. In fact all the 
    hardware is mounted in the same fashion. 
    
    I don't agree with the life ring theory, what happened to a 
    life jacket, and a lanyard to the rail, or a stanchion,
    or the mooring bit.
    
    Anyway i think we're straying away from the base note a bit.
    
    The only way to haul the anchor, with the boat described,
    is to have a windlass, (that stores the line) and an anchor
    roller that is self storing, all the other suggestions
    involve taking taking too many risks.
    
    The other problem is the person bought the wrong boat
    for the conditions under which it must be operated.
    
    not_to_opinionated_jim.

re .20:

You're quite right -- welded 1" stainless steel tubing (usually called a 
railing or a pulpit) is very strong when through-bolted properly. The usual
lifelines -- 3/16 inch stainless steel wire -- aren't strong enough to trust
with your life. Trouble is, on most powerboats the railing doesn't extend the 
full length of the boat. There is usually a long stretch of deck with no 
railing and very narrow sidedecks. This is what makes my friend's Carver 32 so 
hazardous to walk forward on. 

A bit more about safety harnesses: The lanyard hooks have only about a 1/2 
inch opening, so they can't be clipped directly to 1" diameter tubing. 

(The topic of safety is relevant to ALL boats.)

But back to anchoring. None of the many yacht windlasses I've seen self-stow 
rope or even self-tail. I'd think to self-stow say 300' of 1/2 inch rope would
take a rather large drum with a fairly complicated drive/winding mechanism. 
Could anyone provide a manufacturer's name and model number? 

    RE:	.20 & others
    
    Thanks for all the advice.  
    
    I returned after a week on business and find many more replies than
    I ever expected.  I imagine the same problem has plagued a few others.
    
    I find the need to respond and raise a few questions.
    
    .20===> I bought the right boat for me.  Most of the time I have
    company...my wife/family when cruising; friends when fishing...I
    also find I can double my time on the water if I go it alone
    occasionally!  The boat is moored in Cotuit Bay about 2 minutes
    from my place on the Cape.  Makes for a lot of spontaneous
    boating/fishing.
    
    It appears that power is the best way to go.  My problem is not
    getting the anchor to release as some noters have responded.  It
    is getting the rode brought on board without tangling in the twin
    screws.  This ring and float gadget does not appear to solve that
    problem...assuming I understand how it works.
    
    I cannot bring the rode around to the side or the stern as some
    have mentioned.  I would tangle with the SS railing.
    
    A small anchor doesn't do it...I still  have to pull the boat towards
    the anchor...fighting wind &/or current.  If I can pull the anchor
    up manually, it certainly couldn't hold my boat.
    
    One concern mentioned is that my 13S Danforth is not big enough.
    It came with the boat, I can still complain if I have justification.
    What should it be?
    
    A friend suggested another approach, which almost sounds too simple;
    I wish I could have tried it out before the season ended.           
    
    I'll post in the next reply.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    carl

    A new approach...comments welcome.
    
    Assume the boat is anchored.  Assume 150' rode, 10 knot wind.
    
    Obviously the boat is downwind of the anchor.  Now, maneuvering
    carefully, move the boat so that it is upwind of the anchor...180
    degrees from the original position.  The maneuver would have kept
    a slight amount of tension on the rode so as to avoid tangling.
    
    At this point put the engines in neutral, go forward and pull the
    rode in as the boat is drifting with the wind - Towards the anchor.
    
    If all goes well, pulling the anchor up is no problem either since
    it would have been appoached from the opposite direction.
    
    So...what do you all think of that maneuver?
    
    Carl

    re: .23
    
    we'll leave that manuever up to you on your boat, as for me i 
    would never attempt it alone, now your at the mercy of the wind
    and the direction can change so quickly while your on the bow
    you'll never know for sure which waay you're really going.
    
    On the subject of windlasses, i have a "Good" (brand name) windlass
    that uses 3/4" nylon (only) won't work with any other size.
    It lowers and raises about 300' of line and stores it as well.
    As for my anchor locker, i have the 300' of 3/4' + 300' of
    1/2" for my spare anchor. So far the windlass works great.
    
    On a boat with a bridge, i find it impossible to leave the
    bridge, my wife manages the anchor, with the windlass she
    only supervises the process, i have a remote switch in the
    bridge, with twin engines the windlass only gathers the
    line, the engines do all the work. 
    
    The windlass came with the boat, i'm can't answer whether
    or not i would have spent this kind of money for this one.
    But i like it. 
    
    Re: on the base note, in reading your note i felt you were
    boating alone for the most part, that was the reason for
    "purchased the wrong boat" Maybe consider a "good"
    windlass or similar one.
    
    Jim

Someone please translate .24 for me/thx

Carl
>================================================================================
>Note 560.24                Raising the anchor...alone?                  24 of 24
>HYEND::J_BORZUMATO                                    0 lines   4-DEC-1989 09:58
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                   -< "oh" >-
>
>

re .23:

Given that many anchorages are quite crowded, manuvering to get directly 
upwind of your anchor without getting the rode in your propellers while 
avoiding other boats might be a good trick. I agree with .24 that drifting 
straight downwind is unlikely, and the stronger the wind, the faster the 
drift. We've found that boat speed must be very low to have enough time to 
get the rode safely on deck. In much wind you'd be likely to drift too fast.

re anchor size: Not an easy question. It really depends on the type of 
anchoring you do. Overnight anchoring would require a larger anchor (for 
safety) than anchoring for lunch. Riding out bad weather would require a 
larger anchor than that required for a calm night (but squalls happen even on 
nights expected to be calm). See SAILNG Note 373 for much information about 
anchors and anchoring. Given the many variables and the great uncertainty in 
anchoring, it is much safer to use a large anchor than hope for the best. 
For your boat, I'd probably use a Danforth 20H as a working anchor.

My apologies to .24!

For some unknown reason when I read note .24 all I saw was the title < "oh">.

That was the reason I needed a "translation".  The next time I looked the 
whole note was there...no translation required. 

A mystery.

I am not worried about the normal anchorage.  In a crowded area, where I 
would probably be spending the night...people will be on board.  My 
thinking is mostly about a need during fishing...the lunch anchor type of 
application.

Thanks for the insight...a "Good" power winch might be the way to go.  
Anyone have a manufacturers address and/or phone to call?

Carl
>================================================================================
>Note 560.25                Raising the anchor...alone?                  25 of 26
>SSVAX::REDFIELD                                      10 lines   4-DEC-1989 10:07
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                         -< Translation needed for OH >-
>
>Someone please translate .24 for me/thx
>
>Carl
>>================================================================================
>>Note 560.24                Raising the anchor...alone?                  24 of 24
>>HYEND::J_BORZUMATO                                    0 lines   4-DEC-1989 09:58
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                   -< "oh" >-
>>
>>
>

>For your boat, I'd probably use a Danforth 20H as a working anchor.

How does this compare in size and weight to a 13S?

It might sound like a minor issue, but my anchor is fixtured on deck.  I am 
not sure how easy it is to move the hold downs.

Is one of those Hi-Tensile Danforths a good alternative (or is that what 
the H means after 20)?

Carl

The Danforth 13S is now the S920 (claimed holding power 920 lbs) and the 
20H is now the H1500 (claimed holding power 1500 lbs). The 20H weighs about 20 
lbs and is larger than the 13S -- after all, fluke area is a primary 
factor in holding power.

    First some background: 
    
    I picked up a small Danforth type anchor last night (2 1/2 lbs - weight,
    130lbs - claimed holding power)  Depending on wind, tide, humidity,
    etc, I often anchor my boat just off the shore and run a second line to
    the beach.  I intend to use the small anchor to help secure this line.
    
    Problem:
    
    Space is at a premium and the anchor doesnt fit well.
    
    Now the question:
    
    What's the harm in cutting off the round bar stock at the anchor's head
    
                     here                and here
                         |                     |
    			-------------------------
    			   -------  |  -------
    			   \     /  |  \     /
    			    \   /   |   \   /    fluke
    			     \ /    |    \ /
    		              |     |     |
    				    |
    				    |		
                                    |
    
    
    						?

    Cutting off the round bar on the anchor
    
    I had the same problem,  the bar was too long to fit into the anchor
    well.  I asked the people at the boat supply store if I could cut it
    off,  They said sure but treat it with paint so it won't rust.
    
    That bar is to make the anchor set flat on the bottom and keep it from
    flipping over.  I just tried mine yesterday and it worked ok.  I cut
    about 1" from each side.
    
    Hope this helps
    
    Gordon