Conference vicki::boats

    
    Actually, I was surprised that CC had held on this long - their
    product was never good enough to justify some of the prices they
    believed they could command. I'd seen so many bad hulls and poor
    rigging jobs that I'd written them off.
    
    When they lost Genth to Donzi, they lost too much management talent.
    
    This is a little like what happened to Century Boats. Century and
    CC were the two premier builders for decades. Century was re-organized
    a few years ago...now it's CCs turn.
    
     

This turn of events for Chris Craft must have come about just recently.
This month's issue of the BOAT/US newsletter has an article on Chris
Craft, but paints a much more rosey picture.  They said that G. Dale
Murray was gone as CEO, and a new guy had taken over (His name slips
my mind, and I don't have the article with me).  Anyway, the new guy
apparently immediately acknowledged the hull problems that have plagued
Chris Craft, and had set up a warranty repair shop to make repairs.

According to BOAT/US, the hull problems were caused by hull stringers that
were left out in order to cut costs.  The fiberglass hull would then flex
to the point of developing major cracks below the water line.  Several of
them in fact actually sunk.

I think Chris Craft made two fatal mistakes; first in choosing hull stringers
as a place to cut costs, and second in not acknowledging the problem right
away.  This really killed the confidence any prospective buyers had in
the Chris Craft name.  Up until recently I always thought of Chris Craft
as one of the premier boat builders, but they'd have some serious convincing
to do to get me to buy one now.

As far as Genmar buying the smoldering remains of the Chris Craft company,
if it can be salvaged Genmar can do it.  They already own Hatteras, Wellcraft,
Larson, Glastron, Crestliner, Lund, and Cajun bass boats.  I'd still have
to see some major improvements though before forking over $10-20K of my hard
earned money.  There are plenty of others out there who build a boat that will
actually float.

BTW: The reorganization of Century that was mentioned actually came about when 
     they were bought out by the lesser known Glasstream boat company.  Kind
     of like AMC buying out GM.


Rick W.
                                           

re .2: 

Actually, the BOAT/US newsletter does mention -- in a sidebar -- Chris 
Craft going into bankruptcy. But, yes, it did happen within the last 
month or so.

The fact that Genmar appeared so quickly leads one to wonder. The first
mailing from the bankruptcy court to creditors didn't mention Genmar.
The next mailing, a couple of weeks later, summarized Genmar's offer and 
specified the date of court hearing to accept the offer. Those with a
cynical turn of mind might suspect a bit of collusion. The bankruptcy
filing appears to be a way for Genmar to buy Chris Craft without having
to assume Chris Craft's (probably numerous) liabilities for defective
hulls and other problems. After all, when Chris Craft bought Uniflite,
Chris Craft assumed responsibility for Uniflite's commitments such as
hull warranties. 

    Not to insult anyone here but i havn't really seen a 
    a good Chris Craft since the mid 70's. Seems they have been going
    down hill since. Maybe its because they were bought and sold
    a bajillion times. I agree, with the fact they should have 
    instituted a call back sooner, or at least recognized the
    problem sooner. But when your in the "greed mode" its
    becomes difficult to recognize what your priorities are.
    The real issue is that companies like them are folding,
    "today there ain't no market for marginal product"
    A freind of mine "who owns a sailboat" subscribes to
    Popular Sailor", called them for recommendations on
    a small outboard, "Don't buy any american made engine"
    great isn't it, no wonder Merc and Johnson dealers
    are switching to Yamaha. I'm not down on any of the
    boat or motor manufacturers, but the note previous to 
    this talks about not forking over 10-20K of hard earned
    money for questionable product. I'm convinced i won't
    for over $1.00 for questionble junk, never mind 10-20K.
    I'm not going to support anyone who manufacturers junk,
    I don't care where its made. I think i have a lot of
    support, kind of hard to dispute.
    
    Jim.
    

    Has anyone heard which model was having the hull problems? A friend
    of mine just bought a new Chris Craft 21 ft open bow. The dealer
    told him that just the large boats were having a problem and any
    way, the problems had been corrected by now. I think it might it
    might be a "sales job" being put on him. If anybody has any info
    it could help provide some peace-of-mind for him.

    
    RE: .5
    
    It's the 21' Scorpion that has all the problems.  If that is
    what your friend bought, the dealer took him for the ultimate
    ride.
    
    Rick W.

    WELL,IS THERE ANYBODY OYT THERE THAT IS A HAPPY CHRIS CRAFT OWNER?
    I HAVE A 1984 187SL SCORPION DEEP VEE THAT I HAVE POUNDED UP HERE
    ON LAKE CHAMPLAIN SINCE I BOUGHT IT NEW. NOT EVEN A SIGN OF HULL
    PROBLEMS OR ANY PROBLEMS FOR THAT MATTER!!!

    
    First, to leave stringers out of a boat is like leaving the cross
    bracing out of an automobile ... the flexing would break the thing
    in half as quickly as the water was rough.
    
    And yes, the 24 footer seems to be immune...I have several friends
    on Winnipesaukee who have had no hull problems with that model.
    
    

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Note 831.0                 need help on these 2 things                No replies
ICS::FERNANDES                                       14 lines   1-MAY-1991 15:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am in the process of purchasing a 21' Chris Craft w/cuddy and stand
    up head. It has a 175HP Merc-cruiser. Does anyone have one of these
    or any other Chris Craft? I'm looking for information on these boats.
    Are they built well? Do they hold their value? etc.
    
    thanks,
    tony

    I've done some research since my last reply (.9) and it was the 25'
    cruiser model that had the stringer problem. I am purchasing the boat
    at
    WARR's Marina in Wareham who is a Searay dealer and Chris Craft is
    asking them to sell their line of boats. I discussed this stringer
    issue with one of the owners and he had his master machanic go through
    the boat as well as contact the vice president of Chris Craft. The
    boats, in question, were called back and fixed and they had no problems 
    with the 21' scorpions. I was showed where the engine mounts were on
    the stringers and saw no sign of problems. I will monitor this to make
    sure it stays that way just to be safe but from the Chris Craft owners
    that I've talked to they all seem to be pleased.
    
    Thank You

RE: Note 242.10
>> they had no problems with the 21' scorpions. 

I think they're misleading you.  As I recall, it was *specifically* the
21' and 23' Scorpions that had the stringer problem.  I'll double check
my back issues of the BOAT/US newsletter to be sure.

Rick

>>The boats, in question, were called back and fixed 

One other thing I forgot to mention.  The boats with the problems
were *never* recalled.  In fact Chris Craft refused to acknowledge
that there even was a problem, despite several boats with hulls
split wide open and stringers missing.

IMO, this is what led to the bankrupcy of the original (or previous)
Chris Craft boat company.  Mistakes do happen, and you can get a lot
further by admitting your mistakes and correcting them, but they
refused and paid the price.  

Chris Craft is now owned by OMC, and is essentially a new company
with no legal or financial ties to the old Chris Craft.  The last
I knew, OMC was not covering warranty claims on boats built by
the old Chris Craft company.

I'll try to check the Boat/US newsletter tonight and will get back 
to you tomorrow on which models were defective.  Anyone else know
offhand which ones they were?

Rick

    	My memory is not my stong point but I seem to remember the problems
    being with 21' and 23' Scorpions also.

    There were also problems with the 25' Amerosport model..The larger
    cruisers were never affected with these type problems but the entire
    line suffered ..

    If you have the issues is there some way I can copy it or can you give
    me the issue number and date and I'll try to get to the library to do
    more research.
    
    Thank You

I found several references to Chris Craft hull problems in the BOAT/US 
newsletters from a couple years back.  Below is a small portion of one
from the January 1989 issue that seems to sum it up pretty well...

...  Prior to the first of three articles appearing in BOAT/US Reports
about Chris Craft hull cracks, BOAT/US made numerous requests by phone
and in writing for the company's assistance in helping owners.  No
substantive response was ever received by BOAT/US Chris Craft owners
who were experiencing similar frustration.

     In contrast, the company's new philosophy led to the voluntary 
recall of 166 25-foot Amerosports built in 1987 and 1988.  Apparently 
structural frames were omitted during manufacture to allow for easier
installation of drain lines.

     Without these frames, or stringers, unsupported hull panels flex
excessively leading to cracks and leaks Husick (former CC CEO) said.
To the Bureau, owners reported serious chine cracks just forward of
midships on both sides of their boats.

     According to Husick, the old Chris Craft management told plant
managers to cut costs wherever possible.  Omitting the frames was one
way suggested to make the Amerosports less expensive to build. However,
at least one company engineer wrote memos advising against it. That
engineer left Chris Craft in early 1988.

     Now, Husick said, a recall repair shop has been set up within
Chris Craft's Bradenton warranty service facility.  First owners of
defective Amerosports have received recall notices and work is being 
done at no cost.  Owners of boats involved who have not received
notices should contact Chris Craft.

     At this time the company has no plans for additional recalls of
other models suffering from hull damages related to loose and cracked
stringers.  Other models with problems reported are Catalinas,
Cavaliers, Commanders, Seahawks, and Stingers.  The majority of
complaints center on Scorpions, particularly the 21-foot models.

...End of excerpt from article...

Just a couple of final comments - the same issue has a late breaking 
note on the fact that Chris Craft had just filed bankrupcy.  Shortly
after that, they were bought and taken over by OMC.  As far as I
know, the promised warranty repair work was never done on any boats
after the sale, since OMC refused any responsibility for boats 
built prior to their ownership.  You should also notice that the
dealer is telling you the hull is fine by showing the normal amount
of stringers in the engine compartment.  The boats with problems
had cracks in the mid and bow sections of the hulls, where there 
is no way to easily inspect the stringers.  IMO, your dealer is being
"slightly" less than truthful with you.

 As they say, "Run, don't walk..."

Rick

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Note 918.0          Was Chris Craft  quality boat in 1980????            1 reply
MAS::MCNALL "Tom McNall - Rochester NY"               7 lines   9-OCT-1991 20:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Anyone know how well built a Chris Craft s230 Scorpion might be??
    Its a 1980 and the reason I'm asking is I heard they almost went
    bankrupt around that time and began to compromise on quality.
    
    The one I'm looking at has a 260 Merc and a cheap shoreline trailer.
    It needs cosmetics only and I think I can get it for around $6500.
    Any input welcome.....

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Note 918.1          Was Chris Craft  quality boat in 1980????             1 of 1
CSLALL::BORZUMATO                                    24 lines  10-OCT-1991 08:06
                               -< not for me... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't think that they are bad boats, but there are better.
    
    Here's my understanding, since 1978 they were sold about 4 times,
    until finally being bought out by OMC. This kind of situation
    brings about poor quality. I have in the past looked at
    them at boat shows, and was never impressed with their layouts.
    
    One example comes to mind. I think it was their 24 ft. model
    with an I/O. I recall looking at the console, the steering
    wheel was mounted on the horizontal, although it had a slight
    angle to it, all of the switches and fuse holders were on this
    horizontal as well. They arn't gonna last very long with this
    design.
    
    The other problems i recall were poor lay-up qualities in the
    fiberglass, including the fact that they removed a stringer
    from the design. I believe some of the split in half, or 
    developed serious cracks.
    
    I guess i would avoid them.
    
    They are too many other quality boats around.
    
    JIm.

    I called Chris Craft cust. service and they told me there were only
    problems with the 25 footer and it was in the late 80's....They said
    the 1980 S230 Scorpion would have been made by "Chris Craft Industries
    B/4 all of the hull problems. So it looks like I'll keep workin' on
    this deal.
    
    I sure wish someone could remember which issue of US Boat
    News had the article that supposedly mentioned the Scorpions as being the
    problem hulls!!
           
    Also d
    

    The 1980 model was long before these problems surfaced and is 
    probably OK.
    
    The problems with the later boats were not limited to the 25 
    footer, according to BOAT/US.  For more info read note 242.16,
    which has an excerpt from the January '89 BOAT/US newsletter.
    
    Rick

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Note 924.0            Lake Ontario..Pt. Breeze here I come!           No replies
MAS::MCNALL "Tom McNall - Rochester NY"               5 lines  17-OCT-1991 18:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I hope you're right about the 1980 being O.K. 'cause I bought it
    @6500.00....now for the fixing up! It needs the hatch resealed, the
    small "port lite" windows replaced, interior dolling up, dual solenoid
    repair and god knows what other hidden surprizes. Hopefully this will be
    another boat I'll still make money on!!! 

    Folks,
    
     I've read through this string and would like an opinion for my
    brother. He's in Miami and looking at an '87 Chris Craft "Skijack". He
    says its a 21-22' foot boat, cuddy cabin in front, with a 260
    mercruiser I/O. The boat needs some work ( canvas, some interior stuff)
    but otherwise looks solid. He's offerred the owners $4500 and they are
    haggling, looks as if he can get it for under $5K with a really good 
    tandem trailer. 
    
    Is this one of the boats to be concerned about the hull? How would I
    contact Chris Craft to discuss and would they admit any problems? Any
    place special you would inspect for general health of the stringers?
    He is going to have a marine mechanic inspect the boat also as well as 
    test drive it soon.
    
    Thanks for any input.
    
     Chuck

I've owned a 1985 and a 1987 model # 215 (walk-around cuddy) of that hull. It
is a strong hull. It may show some gel coat crazing, I wouldn't worry about
that.

Steve

Hello,

As a soon to be first time boat owner I'd like to solicit some advice from you
folks, please.

I've been looking at boats for a while now, for purchase this year.  At first I
confined my search to Grady White 204C Overnighters in the $13-18k range (after
looking at the new 208 Adventurer).

But, yesterday I went and checked out a 22' 1988 Chris*Craft Seahawk.  To get
ready I hunted around and found lots of references to Chris*Craft's troubles
in the late 1980's but couldn't really find any specific mention of the Sea
Hawks.  The boat was in excellent visual condition and the motor sounded fine
(Yes I will have it all professionally inspected).  What I'd like to get are
some specific references from past owners or other folks who have enough
knowledge to, generally, compare this boat against the 20' Grady.  Now, I
also realize this is *not* a Grady but for $5-10k, or so, less than a Grady
in comparable age, shape, and equipped this boat could be an excellent deal.

I'd rather not get into motors and elctronics (since those have nothing really
to do with the Grady name or construction of the hull).  What I'm really
interested in is a discussion of the Sea Hawk hull design and method of
construction/manufacture (ie, is it handlaid, why does it weigh 100lbs less
than a 20' Grady, etc... ?)

I plan on using this boat for a combination of fishing and other family
activities such as skiing.

Thanks for any help,

Peter.


    Peter, I had two ChrisCraft 21ft fishing boats, a 1985 and a 1987
    Seahawk. Both were V215 models with a 190 Mercruiser I/O. The 1985 was
    replaced with the 1987 because of gelcoat crazing. I used the 1987 for
    two years, when I bought my present boat a 1989 25ft ProLine.
    
    I would rate them ok for safety. Good deep-vee hull design. They will
    take a good pounding. But, they will develop crazing at most joints.
    This may look bad, but will not affect safety. The model ChrisCraft had
    problems with were the larger, widebeam boats.
    
    I would be more concerned with the power. If it has the 170, 180, 190 4
    cylinder Mercruiser I/O, I wouldn't buy it. I had many problems with it.
    Also the boat will be underpower with a heavy load.
    
    
    Good Luck
    
    Steve

[re-formatted to 80 columns]

================================================================================
Note 242.26            Chris Craft Bankruptcy and Quality               26 of 26
BUMP::GOLFN::PeterNeil                               24 lines   1-NOV-1994 12:51
                          -< More Chris*Craft stuff. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .25

Steve,

By 'crazing' do you mean small hairline cracks in the gelcoat around corners 
on the inside ?  This boat had some of that but nowhere near as much as an 85
Grady Overnighter I looked at last Saturday...

This boat is a 216WA with an 150 Outboard (was a 200 but put on a rebuilt
150 PowerHead this summer).  It has all the electronics and a really sturdy
HardTop.  The boat is *exceptionally* clean, but I haven't had a professional
inspect it yet.

During the test drive it got up to 35mph quickly and easily.  The guy who
rebuilt the engine is offering a 60 day warranty from the day I put it into
the water next season.  He will also upgrade it to a 200hp for about $300 total.

He was asking $14,900 and this morning I indicated that my first offer would
be in the $11,200 range (this includes a $700 cash allotment for a full canvas
enclosure first thing in the spring).  He wasn't insulted but he said that was
too low. I'm thinking that the highest I should go is in the $12,000 range
(including the 700 allowance)...

What do you think ?

Thanks a lot for the reply,

Peter.

p.s. He will also supply a spot, free of charge, to store it outside this
winter (reasonably safe - in his Father's back yard).

    Yes, I taking about the hair line cracks in the gelcoat. Nothing to
    worry about. As for price, I haven't been keeping up on the 21ft used 
    boat market. 14K+ sounds high.
    As for the outboard power, I can't help you here. I only use I/O's. 
    My theory is to have enough power to run just on a plane and as
    close to 3000 rpm's as you can. This should include full fuel, people
    and gear. If you can do that the engine will last forever and you'll 
    get the best fuel econony. I really don't care about top end. There are
    very few days I get to run offshore on calm days.
    
    
    Steve

    re .28:
    
    I'm not so sure that hairline cracks in the gelcoat are always nothing
    to worry about. Cracks can be caused by excessive loads on the
    underlying (too weak) laminate. They do typically appear in high stress
    areas. I would suggest that at the very least carefully inspection and
    investigation is needed, which is why a professional survey is always
    advisable.
    
    Alan

    I had the 211 scorpian (1986) for 3 years. It should be the same hull
    as the 88 just a different liner. The boat did well by me in the ocean
    and can take alot for a 21 footer. But now I own a grady (25') and
    there is a big difference in the finish of the boat and the quality
    of alot of the hardware and materials used. The wiring in the grady
    is laid out better and easier to add to. My chris had the 230 i/o.
    Steves comment around 3000 rpm applies to an i/o, for an o/b
    around 4000 rpm is usually there optimum running range. If you get
    about 22-23 knots at 4000 rpm you will probably be happy because
    on most days you can't go faster than that in the ocean. You
    do need to consider the motor and electronics and other accessories
    in the package for what is the right price. Is there a trailer
    incleded?
    14K for an 88 21 foot chris seems high. I think 11k is more in line.
    I got 16K on the trade of my 86 (with a tandom trailer) back in 90 and
    I know the dealer took a bath (sold it for around 12K).
    
    Bruce

re: .29, .30

Thanks for the replies !

This boat is 21'6" (22'9" including the pulpit) Sea Hawk (not a 
Scorpion) and comes with a '91 Venture Tandem Trailer with rollers 
and brakes.

I made a final offer today of $12,500 which will include a $700 
allowance to buy a full canvas enclosure in the spring (I've already 
priced them and it seems that $700 will get everything I want and 
more because it won't require any framework but will attach 
directly to the hardtop).  The offer was also dependent on it 
passing a marine survey/inspection with an inspector of my choice.

This is my first boat and I obviously don't know much, but this boat 
seems *exceptionally* clean and well cared for.  I also talked for 
over 1/2 hour to the guy who did the re-build and got a warm and 
fuzzy feeling from him.

So, any other comments or things to look out for ?

Thanks again,

Peter.