Conference vicki::boats

re .0

Paul,
	I'm sure you can get all your questions answered in the MSEE::FISHING
notes file ( type KP7 to add to your notebook) notes 88,265,473, and 600 or
you can do a "dir/key=sonar" in that notes conference.

	Humminbird and Lowrance/Eagle are the 2 most popular brand names.
As for the frequency I doubt it makes much difference.  If you're working
in shallow water then you will probably want a transdsucer with a wide cone
angle 16 - 20 deg.

	If you look in the other notes file, you'll get lot's of answers
just by reading what's already there...

					Al

    Paul,
    
    If all you want is to keep off the bottom, a cheap LCD is just fine.
    Get the 200khz model for shallow water work. You will get better
    displays (more accurate) at speed. The only problem is sudden objects
    (rocks). The transducer is on the transom (don't use thru-hull),
    so by the time you see it on the screen, your lower unit is gone!!
    
    Stay off the bottom,
    
    Don

    	I bought the cheapest Apelco unit from Bliss last month, about
    $170.  I have only used it on a lake that I already know quite well
    (translation; already chewed up enough props at) so it hasn't "saved"
    me anything yet.  From my knowledge of that lake I'd say it seems
    to be pretty accurate, (it finds fish where I find fishermen catching
    fish too, SURPRISE !).  I intend to use it mostly when trolling
    around with the trim UP at places I havn't been before so I can
    find and remember the high spots before I find them with a skier
    on the line.
    
    	Reg
    
    {Oh, its also the smallest so it doesn't take up much space}
    

    One thing to remember about depthfinders is that they measure the
    depth of water directly under the boat, not how deep it is 50 yards
    in front of you. At substantial speeds, by the time you realize
    you're going to run out of water, you have. Best way to insure you
    dont make a 700 dollar mistake is to be familiar with waters you're
    boating in. If it's new territory, proceed with caution.
    

    
    .4> One thing to remember about depthfinders is that they measure the
    .4> of water directly under the boat, not how deep it is 50 yards
    .4> in front of you.
    
       To be more precise (and to emphazise your point), a depth finder
    measures the amount of water directly _under_the_transducer_. Since
    the transducer in many installations is located at the stern of
    the boat, you won't be able to tell how deep the water is under
    the bow!
    
    

    Like any other device, your better off buying the better unit.
    
    But anyway, a depth finder is used to keep you hosnest, you should
    know where you are, and what the depth should be, the finder only
    confirms the fact you are there. If your looking to a finder
    to keep you out of trouble, they havn't invented it for us
    at a reasonable price. Suggest you get some charts that give
    you the depths and that also show obstructions.
    
    
    jim.

    Re. "The transducer is on the transom (don't use thru-hull),"
    
    May I ask why not?
    
    john

    So howcum in the catalogs I see single function digital-readout
    depth sounder for $170 and I also see for the same price LCD-readout
    fish finder, bottom contour, AND depth?
    
    I take it since I also see fish finders for $1K (with 35" rear projection
    color monitor, cable-ready, :-), I take it the $170 one may not be so hot.
    
    But unless the other functions are totally useless, why should I
    buy a plain old depth sounder?
    
    (Being that I don't believe in free lunches, it must be that the
    multifunction unit doesn't do ANY of the functions particularly well,
    right?)
    

re        <<< Note 82.8 by TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102" >>>

>    So howcum in the catalogs I see single function digital-readout
>    depth sounder for $170 and I also see for the same price LCD-readout
>    fish finder, bottom contour, AND depth?

	Yeah, well, errr, marketists would tell Ya that there's some 
kinda technology_lag/market_lead phenomenon going on.  Engineers would 
say its the other way round, i.e. technology_lead/market_lag, this is 
natural (-:, (-:   Neither would be able to explain it further if 
pushed for details, you'd get some line about,  "It'd take a lot of 
explaining, more than we have time for right now...", that kind of 
drivel.
    
>    I take it since I also see fish finders for $1K (with 35" rear projection
>    color monitor, cable-ready, :-), I take it the $170 one may not be so hot.

	Yeah, they're nice - LORAN & SAT-NAV interfaces too, not to 
mention future buss & funny bus.
    
>    But unless the other functions are totally useless, why should I
>    buy a plain old depth sounder?

	For mundane, practical reasons - like "finding depth" ?  Not 
very much fun, but I'm sure some people still do it.

>    (Being that I don't believe in free lunches, it must be that the
>    multifunction unit doesn't do ANY of the functions particularly well,
>    right?)

	"By sheer dint of effort we have actually improved on the 
perfect products we brought you last year.  More features, more 
functions, more performance, more precision - all at a lower 
price....", etc.  Standard electronics industry stuff.

	Reg	{I just use the prop, most reliable depth finder I 
		EVER saw.}
    

Re. .8, I needed a depth finder for my boat. I don't fish and didn't think that
I needed the expense and appearance of a LCD-style fish finder, a simple digital
depth finder seemed to be the right choice.

Cost was a major consideration. I thought I wanted the Standard depth finder 
until I had a chance to play with one at the boat show. I didn't like the 
controls and decided that I liked the Humminbird model better. The only problem
was that the gimbal mount Humminbird depth finder was $40 or $50 more at $200,
it was too much - considering I was also buying a Micrologic Voyager for $350.
(The flush mount was less, but I wanted the bracket mount style for my purpose.)

They (Bliss) showed me the new Humminbird LCD-400 fish finder model as an alter-
native at only $140. The line was something like "Look, for $60 less than the
Humminbird bracket mount depth finder you can get their LCD-400 fish finder that
not only shows depth digitally it has the same alarm functions, AND it paints 
the bottom on the screen and locates fish if you ever get interested in fishing"
I too was skeptical. Sure, what's wrong with this picture, I asked myself. Sales
staff tells me that LCD-400 is simply produced at higher volumes hence per unit
price is lower, thus it can be sold for less than the digital mount. Well since
I could get what I needed, plus a bonus (bottom picture and fish finding), plus
the same Humminbird quality and warranty I took the line and bought it. But have
had nagging doubts since.

The big differences between the fish finder and the digital model is that the
digital model reads in tenths of a foot, something that is nice, but something
I don't need, while the fish finder shows depths in increments of one foot. The
digital one is guaranteed to be accurate to speeds of 70 MPH, since my boat tops
out at 38 MPH this isn't too important to me. The fish finder carries no 
guarantee on accuracy at that speed. On the other hand it shows the bottom which
is valuable and can be used as a trend line to graphically indicate a rising
bottom as well as locates fish. The depth finder and fish finder use the same 
transducer.

I finally got a chance to talk to a Humminbird rep at the Bayside boat show. He
told me the same thing that Bliss did, indicates that digital models are slower
sellers to a market that insists on them, hence they can, frankly, charge more
for pure digital models than have to. I.e., they make a good profit on them. He
assures me that the cheap LCD-400 is a fine depth sounder as well as a basic
fish finder (I hadn't told him that I had bought one already) and that unless
you had no room for the fish finder, or absolutely needed depth read in in 1/10s
that he would go with the fish finder as it offers more for less money and is
just as accurate.

Basically lower manufacturing costs and higher volume mean that you can get more
for your money in a fish finder than a depth sounder. It isn't a free lunch, but
it's no worse than a Dutch treat. Now, when you start comparing this $140 fish
finder to fish finders costing more you'll see that it isn't the best fish 
finder in the world, primarily because of it's resolution, but compared to 
simple depth sounders in the same price range it is like comparing an electronic
typewriter that lets you see 40 characters before typing them to paper to a full
screen (or at half screen at least) word processor. 

John

FWIW the LCD-400 reads to 400' in auto mode, 600' in manual mode. I don't think
I'll make much use of that capability any time soon :-)

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                                -< Powerboats >-
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Note 1009.0             Any tips on depth finder install                 1 reply
29067::MONROE                                         9 lines  15-JUL-1992 14:16
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      I'm going to be installing a HDR200 depth finder.
    
      It will be a transom mounted version.
    
      Is there any tips or things to watch for when doing this type of 
    install ??
    
      Tom

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              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 1009.1             Any tips on depth finder install                  1 of 1
GUCCI::HERB "Al is the *first* name"                  3 lines  15-JUL-1992 20:32
                        -< Another question on install >-
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    ...before someone moves this note, I would appreciate views on matching
    depth finders and tranducers. Does a NEW DF require  a NEW tranducer if
    they're the same KHz rating?

    I see that it got moved :^) ...
    
    My motivation in -.1 is that I'd love to purchase an updated (and
    working) DF this year but don't want to pull my 24' just for this
    reason. Don't mind replacing the transducer in the Spring. 
    

    I not not a fisherman, thus did not check out 'fishfinders' for years
    as appropriate for use on my 17 foot boat.  Last summer I bought a
    fishfinder for use as a depth sounder.  It was WORTH EVERY PENNY I
    SPENT ON IT.  It 'saved the boat' last summer when an unmarked rock
    came up out of 'nowhere' in the middle of Lake Messabesic.  i.e. the
    fishfinder showed the bottom coming up FAST..... I chopped the throttle
    and there it was (the rock) four feet ahead and about 3 inches under
    water.  Thanks to the fishfinder the bottom trend coming up tipped me
    off and I stopped in time.  It (an APELCO XD350) has a digital only
    readout feature for use as only a depth sounder.  But, I find that
    watching the bottom in addition to the depth is FAR more useful than
    just a digital readout of depth.   So for those who think that a
    digital depth readout is all they need I would suggest they consider
    a 'fishfinder' (actually sonar) as an appropriate alternative. 
    
    You get far more information as to whats going on below you and for
    less money than with a pure digital readout.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    
    I just picked up a Humminbird TCRID1 and got it in the boat this
    weekend. The first thing I noticed when out on the lake with a bright
    sun was that it is very hard to see the screen displays unless you are 
    looking straight into it. Has anyone else had this problem and is there
    anything I can do or buy to make it easier to read?
    
    Craig
    

    
    
       the fact that that fishfinder is hard to see is probably because of
    the number of pixels and the cover screen is clear, try a pair of
    good sunglass's. or mount it in a place where there is shade in the
    boat if its possible.
    
         I have a ray jefferson color telescan 2000 color crt and it is 
    unreadable in the direct sunlight but since it is in under the canvas
    top it has become alot more easily readable.
    
    
    
                                                Lee
    

    I also have a Ray Jefferson crt and it is difficult to read in the sun. 
    One thing That I have found makes it easier is a pair of polarized grey
    lense sunglasses.  I say grey, because I had a pair or amber ones and
    they distorted the color so much that it was very difficult to read
    even in the shade.  Grey lenses don't distort color very much and give
    you the most accurate color.
    
    Gordon
    

    
    Thanks, I'll try the poloraized sun glasses.
    
    Do you have any idea on what would happen if I put a piece of polorized
    glass in front of the screen?
    
    Craig
    

<    fishfinder for use as a depth sounder.  It was WORTH EVERY PENNY I
<    SPENT ON IT.  It 'saved the boat' last summer when an unmarked rock
<    came up out of 'nowhere' in the middle of Lake Messabesic.  i.e. the
<    fishfinder showed the bottom coming up FAST..... I chopped the throttle
<    and there it was (the rock) four feet ahead and about 3 inches under
<    water.  Thanks to the fishfinder the bottom trend coming up tipped me
<    off and I stopped in time.  It (an APELCO XD350) has a digital only
<    readout feature for use as only a depth sounder.  But, I find that
<    watching the bottom in addition to the depth is FAR more useful than
<    just a digital readout of depth.   So for those who think that a
<    digital depth readout is all they need I would suggest they consider
<    a 'fishfinder' (actually sonar) as an appropriate alternative. 
    
Jeff,

    The key here, I believe, is that the LCR graph keeps a brief "history" of
where you have been (for a minute or so) so you can see at a glance the trend
of the bottom, getting shallow, getting deeper, relatively flat.  Neither a
digital depthsounder, nor a flasher unit will do that for you.  The same
information "was" there, but were you looking when it "was" there?  With the
LCR the information hangs around for a little while. 

   FWIW, few of the fishermen I know actually try to find fish on their "fish
finder", instead they look for bottom topology which has a higher chance of
holding fish (creek channels, rock piles, stumps, weed lines, etc.)
    
Al    

    
      The polarized glasses may or may not help you. With the way a LCD
    screen works (By rotating crystals) it is very easy to actually make
    the entire LCD screen look black simply by the polarization of the
    polarized lense. (In other words, you can turn the glass and make the
    LCD screen easier to read or completely black. I 'play' with this all
    the time with my polarized glasses and some LCD things I have.)
    
    				Kenny

    I find that polarized sunglasses make my APELCO 350 MUCH harder to read
    in shade or direct sunlight.  Straight non polaroid (clear) glasses
    (I must wear glasses for vision) give me the best view.  The Polaroids
    make the entire LCD screen blend together so much it is unreadable
    at certain angles.
    
    Yes, I agree the 'Fishfinder' type depthsounder does give you a running
    history which makes trends easier to follow.
    
    Jeff

    Couldn't you fashion a "hood" above the screen to shield the direct
    rays of the sun?  Another alternative would be to purchase an
    "anti-glare" screen (available from DEC Direct) that is normally placed
    over the front of a terminal to cut down on the reflections from the
    overhead lights.  You would need to cut it to fit your screen but it
    might solve your problem.  They are pretty cheap to buy.
    Wayne

    Good idea Wayne, isn't the anti-glare screen a polarized screen, and
    with polaroid sunglasses we would have polaroid on polaroid, in other
    words a BLACK screen, if I am understanding this correctly.
    
    Where can I buy a anti glare screen from DEC at NIO?
    
    Tx.
    
    Jeff

    You wouldn't necessarily have a black screen with 2 polarized lenses.
    It depends on the orientation of the polarizers. If they are linearly
    polarized and oriented the same, you could see very clearly without
    much of any glare, but if you rotate your head or sunglasses, it would 
    become black when the polarizers were at 90 degrees rotation.
    
    There is also the possibility of circular polarization, although I am
    fuzzy on the details.
    
    Bill
    

    Jeff, why don't you talk to one of the guys in in-house support next to
    the nurse's office.  They might have a used one around.  If not, you
    would probably have to order one direct from the Dec Direct Catalog.
    You could probably drive over to Nashua and pay by check or order over
    the phone on a Visa card.  I doubt that we stock them in NIO anymore.
    Wayne

    Did anyone reply to the note regarding transom mount transducer vs
    thru hull. Also would like some input on matching an exsisting
    transducer up with a new DF. I currently have a flasher and hate and
    distrust it. I can't see pulling my 24' out now to replace the
    transducer for a new one if I don't have to.
    Any comments
    
    George

<    Did anyone reply to the note regarding transom mount transducer vs
<    thru hull. Also would like some input on matching an exsisting
<    transducer up with a new DF. I currently have a flasher and hate and
<    distrust it. I can't see pulling my 24' out now to replace the
<    transducer for a new one if I don't have to.
<    Any comments
    
   It depends on the two units involved.  I have an Eagle flasher and an Eagle
LCD depthfinder on my bass boat and I interchange the 2 units constantly.  I
doubt you'll be able to interchange transducers from different manufacturers or
with some of the newer units (that give side-scanning, multiple cones, or 3-d
displays). 

   I find my flasher to be more reliable than my LCD in shallow water, however
I do like the LCD for deeper water and while running.  The flasher is easier to
see in bright sunlight, refreshes more frequently, and will show me when I'm
holding directly over a slope even if I'm not moving.  LCD's will only give you
an average depth within the transducer's cone...  I've got the LCD unit on the
console so I can "see" the bottom while I'm underway, and the flasher is on my
bow mounted on the trolling motor so I can hold on a particular spot while I'm
standing on the bow fishing. 

Al

    What should a depthfinder read out be when you are on land and the
    transducer is about two feet off the ground. I'm trying to get one
    fixed and would like to know if you can tell if it is working properly
    before                
    putting it in the water. Its a very low end Hummingbird with small
    round LCD read out. After installing new transducer all I get wehn
    turning it on is 10ft warning reading and then blank screen.
    

    I could be wrong, but I think your transducer has to be wet
    before it will read properly.  Give it a try, in fact, today
    would be perfect (raining cats and dogs)!

    A transducer can work out of water depending on the output power.  Since 
    sound travels 5-6 times faster in water than in air, a reading of 10-12' 
    on the LCR is about right when the ground is only 2' away.  Try passing 
    your foot between the transducer and the ground to see if it is detected.  
    
    -Joe-

    
        My Humminbird emits an audible clicking sound which can be heard
    when the boat is out of the water. This pulsing/clicking sound is heard
    from the transducer. This sound should tell you the transducer is send-
    ing a signal it is receiving from your depth-finder.
    
    -Jeff