Conference 7.286::dcu

From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" 18-MAY-1995 19:41:02.86
To:	wldbil::kilgore, rowlet::ainsley
CC:	
Subj:	Please post as reply to Web Note

Bill, Bob,

Please could you post this message as the first reply to the
WWW Press Release I just sent you.

Dear Owner,

As a member of your board of directors I feel very proud to be able
to issue the announcement contained in the base note. DCU's
presence on the WWW is a testament to a lot of hard work put
in by Tom Ryan (DCU's VP of Operations) and Tim Garner (DCU's
VP of Marketing) as well as that of their staff's. Please join me in
expressing appreciation for the effort.

This announcement is being made available to you (the Digital
notesfile community) so that you may give our Web pages a
test drive prior to general announcement. DCU would welcome
your comments. Please send them to the mail address specified
in the base note. While I can't commit to you getting a personal
reply I will assure you that all messages will be read and your input
and suggestions will be taken into account. Suggestions for
enhancements and new electronic services that you'd like us to offer
would be most welcome.

I believe this action on the part of DCU firmly sets the direction
of our intent to utilize leading edge technology to deliver to you
an even higher level of service. This is by no means the end
point, it is merely the beginning. But I feel that as our FIRST step
onto the Information Super Highway it is important. Things like
electronic home banking are definitely under consideration, we're
certainly not done until at the very least members can securely
download their personal statements into their money management
programs such as Quicken. I am convinced we will reach that point
but at present I cannot give a schedule. There are a lot of issues
to address first; privacy and security being two of the most
important.

Anyway please enjoy the fruits of our first step onto the Internet
and I hope you find the service useful.

Respectfully,

Dave Garrod
Secretary DCU Board of Directors

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% Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 20:34:55 -0400
% From: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: wldbil::kilgore, rowlet::ainsley
% Subject: Please post as reply to Web Note

Wow!

>electronic home banking are definitely under consideration, we're
>certainly not done until at the very least members can securely
>download their personal statements into their money management
>programs such as Quicken. I am convinced we will reach that point
>but at present I cannot give a schedule. There are a lot of issues
>to address first; privacy and security being two of the most
>important.


	I wish I had this now! :) But I'm just VERY happy to see that
	it's coming. It would save me so much time and hassle!!

	Thanks DCU, (and Dave G for listening to my feedback and pushing 
	for it to happen)

						mike

    Well, I just tried it and got
    
    Error 403
    
    Forbidden - by rule
    
    

I just tried it from outside and it worked fine. It looks good to
me. I even learned something from it - never knew we already had
an ATM at Cotton Road in Nashua. Also didn't know the number of
branches had dwindled so badly.

-Jack

    It looks good maybe we have finally gotten some good officers that are
    taking care of our banking needs.  I am one member that has noticed the
    change and the WWW homepage is one in the right direction, I applaud
    you for a fine job on the web.

    Unfortunately, what happens with many Web sites, and what happen when
    DCU was in ELF, information becomes outdated.  And so it is with DCU's
    WEB site.
    
    You'll noice the date of the promotion is *through* June 23rd.
    
    also, one can not click and send mail to DCU, feature doesn't seem to 
    work.
    
    Also, the interst rates listed un savings interst reated DO NOT MATCH
    those that they recently paid me on my statement.
    
    One last warning, they are at it AGAIN:  paying out money for a check
    beyond what the check was written for.  thank god for Quicken and its
    watchful eye.  This time they can't blame *my* handwritting.
    I wonder just how many people get taken by this and don't even notice.
    ed
    
    
    =================================== from web site =============
Digital Employees' Federal Credit Union 


SPECIAL OFFERS



It's Auto Loan Sale Time at DCU!

   Up to 100% Financing, New or Used 
   WIN one of 5 Car Stereos (no purchase necessary) 
   Rates as low as 7.15% APR - New or Used 
   Refinance your loan from another institution and save 

If you've been dreaming of a new or used car, now is the time to purchase one. 
    Through June 23, 1995, choose any
vehicle you'd like and enjoy a great rate with up to 100% financing. 

Special Auto Loan Sale Rates - New and Used 
   Up to 36 months -- 7.15% APR* 
   Up to 48 months -- 7.65% APR** 
   Up to 60 months -- 7.90% APR+ 
   Up to 72 months -- 8.30% APR++ 

Amount of financing - the lower of 100% purchase price, including sales tax and filing fees, or book value. Used
vehicles must be paid before the vehicle becomes 11 years old. 

APR = Annual Percentage Rate. Your estimated monthly payment per $1,000 borrowed is: 
   * $30.96 for up to 36 months at 7.15% 
   **$24.26 for up to 48 months at 7.65% 
   + $20.24 for up to 60 months at 7.90% 
   ++$17.69 for up to 72 months at 8.30% 

Rates based on automatic payment. If other than automatic payment, add .5% to APR. 

Apply Today! 
Stop by any branch or call 800/328-8797 for an application. Or apply by touch-tone phone 24 hours a day by calling
Loan Line24 - call 800/328-8797 and choose option 3. Applying only takes minutes and you will have an answer on
or before the next business day. 

  Back to DCU home page

DIGITAL EMPLOYEES' FEDERAL CREDIT UNION
141 Parker Street
Maynard, MA 01754
800-328-8797
For more information, e-mail [email protected]. 
    ================

    re: 
    
    "also, one can not click and send mail to DCU, feature doesn't seem to 
    work."
    
    That is probably more a function of the WWW browser that you are using
    than the design of the web page.  It should work fine from Netscape or
    Mosaic V2.6A...  Older versions of Mosaic did not support mailto:
    
    I can't argue your other concerns...
    
    jeff
    
    
    

    [to further a rathole on incorrect check payment]
    
    Ed, did you get a copy of the cancelled check from DCU?  See what
    dollar amount is coded beneath your signature.  If this is incorrect,
    your gripe is probably with the people who put mistranscribed the
    amount, not with DCU.
    
    --Pat

    CONTINUING THE RATHOLE...
    
    after a day, they got back to me to tell me someone else encoded it
    wrong.
    So oneone is to blame.  Why should I bother to put an amount the check
    is worth if no one bothers to read the amount?
    
    My overdraqph protection prevented bounced checks, but why bother.
    The last time this happen they cashed a $200 check for $2000; whats an
    extra zero between friends.
    
    I am thankful for Quicken and its rapid ability to reconcile
    checkbooks.  Now if only DCU would follow the lead of the other banks
    that signed on with Intuit.  But according to one director, they are
    going to sit back and wait on it.
    

    
    
    No, Ed, they're just out to get you ;-)
    
    
    Gotta admit though, 200 and 2000 is a big difference.
    
    
    ... Luckily you have the tools you have in order to recognize right
    away that there is an error and then you take action... Not everyone
    has Quicken, so I can see why the DCU is 'slow' to embrace it.  There
    is still *A LOT* of fear over the SECURITY of data on the Internet.  Do
    you blame the DCU for being extra sure with (y)our money?   I betcha if
    there were 2000 people asking for Quicken, then something would get
    done...  But I honestly can't believe there are that many people using
    the technology yet....
    
    
    John
    
    
    
    

re last few

Whatever/whenever we get some sort of integrated home PC banking software I hope
that it does not REQUIRE Quicken.  Some people use other similar packages and
have no desire to change.

Rich

RE: .12

	I think they SHOULD use .QIF files at least. That seems to be
	the "standard" method of xfering stuff.  All money management
	packages do or should understand import and export of .QIF files.

	I'm under the impression that Dave Garrod is pushing for 
	better integration. Has it been put on hold??

							mike

    at least when they do the $2000vs 200 it's more noticeable than
    96 for 43.
    
    there's various levels they can enter the home banking environment.
    .qifs is one.  Intuit [maker of Quicken] offers other services.  They
    seem to be the way to go.  Money is another, but judging from the fact
    that microsoft wanted to buy out Intuit, perhaps they are somehow
    tipping the hat that they think quicken is better?
    the director I was talking to didn't make it sound like it was just 
    around the cornor.  too bad.
    ed
    

From what I have seen, banks (and I include DCU in this) don't look at the
handwritten amount to see if it matches the encoding if the check arrives
pre-encoded (as many do).  They don't look at the signature or check whether
the payee and the endorser match.  It's then up to the account holder to
notify the bank of errors.

Catching errors doesn't require Quicken (or other software), though I admit
software makes it easier.  For many years I reconciled statements using 
a calculator.  It works well.  You do have to keep track in your register of
all your transactions - but you would with Quicken, etc. as well.

					Steve

    of course it does require quicken.  But I will admit prior to my use
    of Quicken, there was a certain amount of trust and apathy that led me
    to not carefully monitor the back statements.
    and it does appear sop to not verify the amount.  encoding can happen
    at a few different places.  the corporation you sent the check to can 
    put the encoding in or the feds.   There can be honest mistakes by
    overworked people.  People makeing $5.00 for motivation could cause you
    to get all your money lifted from all your accounts, go into overdraph
    protection, and/or bounce checks.  I don't know about you, but that
    does make me concerned.  In the case where the $200 check got cashed
    for $2000, they went into a few different accounts to get money to make 
    up the difference.   I didn't know for a month that this had happen.
    
    I'm not ready for a check-free environment.  I'd rather put the
    printhead to the check.  But I am ready to have my computer talk
    to their computer.  It's about time.
    ed
    
    
    

This can get especially nasty when the check bounces and merchants whallop you
with $30 "returned check fees".  They don't care whose fault it is.  It would
be the bank's responsibility to reimburse you for such fees.

				Steve

DCU is indeed moving along toward providing home banking service.  Funds were
approved at this month's Board meeting to get the ball rolling.  I can't talk
about details as yet, since they have yet to be negotiated, but stay tuned.  I
think those of you who expressed interest in this service to me will be very
pleased.

Elaine

DCU management is also aware that the current
DCU board is computer literate - a number of board members
have offered to be beta testers.

Gim

I'd be happy if I could get my checking and Visa statements in QIF format.

					Steve

RE: .18

	YEAH!

	I'm very much looking forward to this. Lemme know if you need
	beta testers.

							mike

BayBanks has created a web site at http://www.baybank.com .  I haven't looked at all 
of it, but what I've seen is quite slick.

Rich

Is the DEC web page still working?  I tried to access it but it 
always fails.

Leo

I'm getting "connection refused".  When I tried to mail to [email protected] a 
couple of weeks ago it bounced.  I think that there may be some sort of problem 
on the service provider's end.

Rich

DCU is in the process of changing its Internet service provider, in order to be
able to improve service.  We're all sorry that it's a little bumpy right now.

Elaine

The changeover I mentioned is not the problem.  It should be transparent when it
takes place (so I'm not going to tell you when it will be! :-)

DCU was not aware there was a problem until I, and another director, called to
ask.  They are looking into it.

Again, folks, 1-800-DCU-8797 is the place to find out what's really going on!

Thanks for your concern.

Elaine

    The DCU Web site is back!  I was just able to access it, although the 
    Loan and Saving Rates isn't working.
    
    Kath

Stay tuned, you patient DCU Web surfers!  Although some of the pages aren't
working on the DCU Web site (like all the interesting ones!), DCU Operations is
telling me to find that all fixed by the middle of next week.  This is the major
upgrade.  From what I hear, it'll be easy to tell.

Elaine

    
    
    Ok, now I'm impressed!  I just went into the new DCU home page and wow.
    It's good. [gee, ain't I supposed to be the negitive guy?]
    
    I used the loan calculators , best I've found on the web [could use a
    little improvement, for instance loand comparision calcualor doesn't
    give me the option to compare 6 year car loan at 8.3% vs 5 at 8.0%
    
    lots of good information, and easy to get to.  Not like the old page.
    
    I even filled out a car loan application while I was there, and that
    was incredibly easy [now we'll see how easy it goes through the
    process].
    
    Hey, check it out, congratulations DCU.  [and bod]
    ed
    
    

    Now that I said it was good, I got clobbered by it.  The loan
    calculator is NOT the same one they use when you put pen to paper on
    a loan.  I choose WEEKLY deductions for my loan and the calculator was
    OFF by $6/week.  This is quite a dievation.  They should not put this
    calculator on the internet if it is wrong.  I did send off a note to
    DCU and the loan officer at the branch experienced my displeasure.
    I had brought the black and white output from DCU homepage loan
    calculator.  
    One would *think* they would check these things out prior to putting
    on the web.
    ed
    

Not to mention misspelling principal as "principle" in at least one place (yes,
I sent mail about this).

Don't be so sure that the web calculator is wrong.  When I refinanced my
mortgage a couple of years ago (not with DCU), the payment calculated on the
final papers didn't match the initial quote nor my own calculations - they
agreed to fix it, but never did explain why the discrepancy.  Many loan
calculators are very sloppy with their arithmetic, using single-precision,
not rounding properly, etc.

				Steve

    same old problem Ed.
    
    The dcu doesn't figure your weekly loan payment as straight weekly
    amortization.
    
    They figure up a monthly for the number of years, divide by 4 and
    charge you that rate every week.
    
    I recently did an auto loan, so I tested the calculator for a 6 year,
    8.39% loan, paid weekly.  Sure enough, its about $7 off (less) of  
    the real payment I make.
    
    If I recalculate at 8.39%, 6 years, paid monthly and divide the monthly
    by 4, that's what my weekly payment is now.
    
    I don't think it would be real smart to make the loan calculator
    do this 'weird' loan arithmetic just becuase that's the way DCU
    REALLY writes their loans.  
    
    The initial screen does have a disclaimer about your actual payments
    varying and to contact the dcu for exact numbers.

    I talked to Tom Gray [nice person].
    
    DCU uses a different formula that that used on the WEB page to
    calculate the weekly payment.
    
    one would have *thought* DCU would have stood behind the formula that
    they presented on the WEB page.
    
    this isn't just a simple matter of interest rate error, or data input
    error.
    
    Having a lower weekly payment [web page formula] is an incentive to
    choose that meathod over monthly payment.  Perhaps DCU should rethink
    it's way of calculating weekly payments.
    Perhaps DCU should rethink how it conducts itself when it makes a
    mistake.  I am looking at a 288 [weeks] * $6/wk = $1728 error in 
    their favor.
    
    ed
    

    
    Re .33:
    
    Ditto your impression of Tom.
    
    Did he say *why* different formulae are used on the web page and in the
    determination of actual payments, or what, if anything, might be done
    about the discrepancy?
    

    He indicated that he tried out the web page, but had not noticed the
    difference, but now knows it is true.
    
    He said that the internet provider bought this as part package.  Other
    banks apparently calculate *their* weekly payments that way. Why can't
    DCU.  And if DCU represents it's weekly payments that way, why can't
    DCU stand behind it?
    Tom indicated that they want the page fixed, but if it can't be fixed,
    then the loan calculator taken off. ;-(  too bad, it's the best loan
    calculator I found on the internet.
    my opinion, an easier solution would be for DCU to fix DCU's formula.
    and make it right to the people who used it on the net.
    
    but let me point out to all those who consider me negative on DCU, no
    I'm not.  I just took out a sizable car loan with them, my first in
    quit a number of years.  With the exception of the weekly formula, DCU
    made it quit painless from the application on the internet, to signing
    the paperwork.  My son is getting a loan with them also.  Another
    first.
    When I point out these things, I am doing it because I care about DCU,
    and would like to see it continue to improve.
    
    If you ever have the time, talk with Tom.  He's knowledgeable about
    this notesfile.  His only comment was that he wished that members would
    contact DCU first or in addition to posting problems in this notesfile,
    so that any comments would not be lost.
    ed
    

DCU doesn't really do "weekly payments" - they may deduct weekly from your
paycheck, but the payments are credited monthly.  A true weekly payment
schedule would result in lower payments because of more rapid payoff of the
principal.

The web page ought not to allow "weekly" as an option of DCU doesn't offer
the same.

				Steve

    re: .36
    
    >> A true weekly payment schedule would result in lower payments
    >>DCU doesn't really do "weekly payments" - they may deduct weekly from
    >>your paycheck, but the payments are credited monthly.
    
    Weekly auto loan payments ARE applied to loan weekly, resulting
    in less interest paid over the course of the loan, and a faster
    payoff.  See the other notes here on auto loans to get an understanding
    of the confusion this has caused many times over.
    
    Ed's problem is easy to understand.  DCU does a non-standard loan
    caclulation to figure up your weekly deduction. The web page calculator 
    does a 'standard' calculation, either straight loan payments weekly, or 
    monthly.
    
    Personally, I'm with Ed.  For everyone's ease of understanding DCU
    should write loans paid weekly in a more standard way.  
    
    --bert

    
    While, ONE of the loan calculators on the web is fixed, you can no
    longer choose weekly payments.  I'm glad they took this approach rather
    than delete the loan calculator entirely [that was one option
    expressed].
    
    But there is still a fundemental problem with the WEB site.  I highly
    doubt that anyone at DCU knows a lot about the WEB or its web page. 
    And the provider for DCU isn't giving DCU a 100% service.  You see,
    they fixed ONE of the loan calculators, but they didn't bother seeing
    that if ONE of the loan calculators were bad, perhaps the OTHER loan
    calculator, the loan comparison calculator is BAD.
    I went or to that one, and sure enough, you can still get a quote on a 
    weekly, and it come out with the better [non-DCU supported] formula.

Attempting to open www.dcu.com with Netscape yields

    Error 400
    Invalid request "CONNECT www.dcu.com:443 HTTP/1.0" (unknown method)

Regards
Rick

re: .39  Rick

I hope you have posted this as a CC to us of mail you sent to DCU.  No one from
DCU staff reads this notes file, and thus, they cannot fix any errors you report
here.  You must phone or e-mail them directly.

Elaine

I notice I can't check the loan rates and savings rates on the
website anymore. I use the NCSA Mosaic browser, and the new 
DCU home page does warn that data in tabular form can't be seen 
unless I use the Netscape browser. 

Since I prefer the Mosaic client to anything else, it's back to Easytouch 
for me (yes I did e-mail my feedback to the site maintainers).

- Ganesh.

If you get a newer NCSA Mosaic it can handle tables.  If you're on OpenVMS,
DECwindows 1.2-4 has Spyglass Enhanced Mosaic which has no problem with most
of the "Netscape" enhancements.

					Steve

I just got the same error as in .39 and I reported it to DCU and they're trying
to fix it now. -- Steve

I note that the Web site now redirects users to use secure sockets instead of
regular HTTP.  While this is a good thing in general, the Digital firewall
doesn't pass SSL.  We should probably make the home page regular HTTP and only
tag the secure parts with SSL so that we can at least get non-private info
(rates, etc.) from inside the firewall.

Sam Ho

(also being sent to [email protected])

    Is the homepage down again.....   ???
    
    
    Lisa
    
    

    
    Looks like it is...
    

Can't send mail to [email protected] either.


   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
While talking to www.dcu.com:
>>> RCPT To:<[email protected]>
<<< 550 <[email protected]>... User unknown: A file descriptor does not refer to 
an open file.
550 <[email protected]>... User unknown

The new address for DCU e-mail is:

[email protected]

It's been broken a long time.

-- Steve

There's nothing wrong with the home page, other than the fact that 
it's written to assume that someone accessing it with a Netscape 
browser wants to use secure HTTP instead of insecure HTTP.  The 
Digital firewall doesn't pass secure HTTP so that when the redirect 
comes back to automatically move you to the secure site (if you're 
running Netscape), you're screwed.

-r

Apparently, the server DCU is running (Netscape Commerce server) 
believes it should redirect the Internet Explorer (Microsquish's 
answer to Netscape) so it doesn't work either.

Don't ask if I've sent this DCU.  I haven't and I'm not going to.  I 
have neither the time nor the inclination.  It won't bother me in the 
least, however, if someone else wants to take my notes here and use 
them as ammo/forward them.

BTW, it doesn't do a redirect in the normal HTTP redirect sense.  
Instead it does:

$ telnet www-proxy.crl.dec.com 8080
%I, Trying ... 192.58.206.21
%I, Session 01, host www-proxy.crl.dec.com, port 8080
GET http://www.dcu.com/ HTTP/1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/2.01

HTTP/1.0 200 OK
Server: Netscape-Commerce/1.12
Date: Monday, 25-Mar-96 22:19:56 GMT
Content-type: text/html

<HTML><HEAD><META HTTP-EQUIV=REFRESH CONTENT="0; 
URL=https://www.dcu.com/home1.shtml"></HEAD></HTML>

%S, Remote connection closed
%I, Session 01, host www-proxy.crl.dec.com, port 8080

It sends a completely different page (like the real thing) if you 
don't tell it you're using Netscape.

    I am getting to the home page from within Digital, using Internet
    Explorer ... but I have to use this as the home page ...
    
    www.dcu.com/home1.shtml
    
    using dcu's home page reference of .../home.shtml gets me to a blank
    screen
    
    Stuart

    gee, what a novel idea, fix it so your 
    customers can't get to it!
    

    Well, using the new formula to get to the DCU home page,
    I see that they are back to using the OLD loan calculator, the
    one that casued my hard feelings regarding my recent loan.
    
    The weekly calculation does not match waht DCU does in practice.
    WHY DOES DCU INSIST ON USING A LOAN CALCULATOR THAT DOES NOT MATCH
    WHAT THEY WRITE LOANS FOR.   IT ISN'T THAT THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT.
    DCU is getting stupider.
    btw, I got my tee shirt.   It'll fit a child.  at least they could have
    sent me two, one for each of my children so they won't fight over who
    would get it.  the shirt was not intended for an adult!  or at least
    me.  
    no, I'm not calling HQ, they don't return calls so why bother?
    ed badger
    

>    the shirt was not intended for an adult!  or at least me.  
>
>    ed badger

    Ed, sorry to hear about your continuing saga regarding this tee
    shirt. Maybe I can help, I've got one that I'm not going to use.

    What size shirt are you looking for?

    Charly (DCU = Members Helping Members)
    

    the tee shirt they sent me was probably a one size fits all, kinda like
    the old one account fits all we had from dcu in years past.
    
    its a kids size, surely not the size for a big member like me!
    I've held off on assigning the shirt.  Sure I'd welcome yours if you
    aren't going to use it.
    
    ed
    

    oh ya, the internet site.  I got through with the recomended method.
    BUT,  I can't send mail using it, and ?maybe? you can't do the 
    internet loan application.
    is there anyone at the light switch?
    no, I didn't bother calling, they don't answer nor return phone calls.
    ed
    

>   the tee shirt they sent me was probably a one size fits all, 
>   its a kids size, surely not the size for a big member like me!

    Ed, I'm a big guy and it fits me fine. Just how "big" of a member
    are you?

>   I've held off assigning the shirt.  

    Sorry Ed, I'm extending the offer to you, not your whole family.

At http://www.creditunions.com is "The World Wide Credit Union Home Page"
with a number of interesting links, among them

	- Credit Union Web Resources and Sites
		- Credit Unions on the World Wide Web (many, including 
			www.dcu.com)
		- Competitors Home Pages (Banks, VISA, MC, etc)

-stephen

And at

http://www.webcom.com/~midstate/mswww.html

is another long list of credit unions with Web Pages.

It's very interesting to see what the other credit unions are offering.
Stanford Federal Credit Union in Palo Alto CA apparently allows access
to account information throught the Web, although they use Netscape
Secure Server and I can't get to the page from within Digital. I'll try
it from my wife's ISP tonight.

-stephen

    I've been unable to access DCU's home page or any other page on
    www.dcu.com for the last several days. Has anyone else been
    successful or is there a problem.

    Steve Realmuto

    Re .61, and other previous replies.
    
    There are now a few proxy servers that let you through 
    to secure sites from within the firewall. 
    
    Since DCU already supports a secure site, is there a plan 
    to offer PC Branch or equivalent directly on the web site 
    for use by members? 
    
    It seems to me that if I can trade stocks on my broker's
    web site, it's probably safe enough to balance my checkbook
    or transfer money between accounts on the DCU website.
    Plus I won't be tying up a modem at the DCU server end,
    if I access it through the web.
    
    - Ganesh.