Conference 7.286::dcu

    As I have stated in several notes before ...
    
    1. Some type of access to meetings.
    
    2. Access to ATM machines where a branch is not possible.
    
    3. Some form of representation.  If the BoD is to represent the
    diversity of its membership, one position would not be too much to ask
    for ... but since all positions are voted at large, that is unlikely
    at this time.
    
    4. Expansion of branches into large population areas of Digital were
    they can be cost justified.
    
    5. Increased decision making authority in the branches that do exist.
    
    6. Better hours of access to branches that do exist.
    
    
    I am sure there is more, but that is all I can think of after working
    all night.  
    
    Chuck 
    

    I just want to be able to make deposits of checks or cash. Is that too
    much to ask? Couldn't this be done through the current ATM network
    serving Michigan?

    --- Paul

    Abolition of the $1 transaction fee. for non DCU ATM's. This probably
    costs me,around $60/year.
    
    q
    

    
    RE: .3
    
    Hypothetical:
    30,000 members (36% of membership) perform 60 (only 5 a month) foreign 
    ATM transactions a year, that is 1,800,000 a year.  Assuming DCU is only 
    charged $.50 and eats it, that is a $900,000 yearly charge.
    
    Question:
    Is such a charge reasonable for DCU to "eat", where "eat" means either:
    
    	higher loan rates, and/or
    	lower savings rates, and/or
    	reduced services, and/or
    	fewer branches, etc.
    
    There are trade-offs to everything.  Nothing is 'free'.  Is 'free' ATM
    usage a high membership priority?  Higher than say, CHECKING FEES?  (gulp)
    
    I'm not taking a position either way here.  I just think it helps to
    interject some numbers into the discussion where the scope of the
    problem might become more apparent.  'Small' amounts can add up quickly.

re .4:  Could someone on the Board ask the right person at the DCU for some
real numbers regarding ATM use?  In particular, how is ATM use charged to
the DCU?  Per transaction?  Flat rate?  Some combination?  What is the 
incremental cost to the DCU of additional ATM transactions?  It makes all the
difference in terms of whether it is practical for the DCU to offer reduced
price or free ATM service to remote members.

For example, if the added cost to the DCU for giving free ATM usage to
remote members were $100,000, I'd say DCU should seriously consider it.
If the added cost were $900,000, I'd question whether DCU can afford it
right now.

To complicate the question of "added cost": how much is the DCU likely to
gain (in terms of new deposits, loans to members etc.) if it makes it easier 
for remote members to do business with the DCU?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re .-2
    
>    Hypothetical:
>    30,000 members (36% of membership) perform 60 (only 5 a month) foreign 
>    ATM transactions a year, that is 1,800,000 a year.  Assuming DCU is only 
>    charged $.50 and eats it, that is a $900,000 yearly charge.
    
PSuedo- Hypothetical 
    And if 30,000 members perform 60 transactions per year, at the real
    rate of $1.00 per transaction, then they are paying $60 each for a
    lower level of service, and that is $1.8M that goes not into the
    Members or the DCU's Pockets, but the third party ATM companies...
    
    q
    
        
    

    
    RE: .5
    
    I agree. Real numbers are needed to make a final determination.  But
    the fact is that these transactions DO cost something.  And there is a
    potential for large numbers of them.  Even more of them if they are
    'free'.  I was trying to illustrate how even a slight usage by a
    minority of DCU members at half the current charge would result in a
    BIG cost to DCU.  In this case, I think we also need to look at the
    larger cost and weigh it against other DCU priorities, like getting
    rates back to those at other credit unions.  Trade-offs everywhere.
    
    RE: .6
    
    I don't understand.  Why is the level of service lower?  DCU would have
    to utilize third party ATMs no matter what.  They can't be expected to
    install their own all across the country so there are going to be
    charges incurred by DCU.
    
    Would ATM at cost (whatever that is) be acceptable to people in 
    the non-GMA area?

  Real numbers would be nice because my local bank charges NOTHING for these
even if I use DCU's machine.

    
    RE: .8
    
    Is your bank a local bank that has it's own ATM machines and has
    branches generally available to the customers?  In other words, their
    volume of foreign ATM transactions may be very small and they may be
    able to eat the relatively small cost.  This may not be the case with 
    many DCU members.  There are a lot of things to consider on this topic. 
    I guess all that can be said at this point is we'll add it to the list 
    of things to evaluate and consider.
    
    Are there any intermediate proposals out there???  Allowing a certain
    number of transactions?  Charge for those in excess of the allotted
    number for those members who don't live or work within X miles of a DCU
    branch or ATM?  Let's hear them...
    

As a GMA DCU member, I have no problems with a reduced fee
schedule for folks outside the GMA.  That reduced fee schedule
would in some ways compensate for the lower level of service.

Of course this could be difficult to implement (legal and otherwise).

I offer these suggestions:

1.  a fixed annual credit against foreign ATM fees; this would
    limit the usage,

2.  a higher minimum balance for a higher level of service.
    Some banks have no fee ATM's but require 2,000-5,000 minimum
    balance,

3.  as Phil suggested, ATM fees at cost.

Keep in mind that all this is a zero sum game. Banks that offer free
ATM's must be making up the expenses in some other ways - perhaps they
save money by using local attorneys and auditors rather than ones 
clear across the country?


Gim

    I think there are two ATM issues that need to be addressed here.
    
    1.	Even within the "Greater Maynard Area", DCU's ATM service is not
    	competitive with commercial banks.  I consider the level of
    	convenience provided by BayBank's X-Press 24 network to be the
    	standard against which DCU should be measured.  Smaller commercial
    	banks and other credit unions issue "X-Press 24" cards and allow
    	customers the full range of transactions throughout New England.
    	DCU should SERIOUSLY consider doing likewise.
    
    	From my standpoint, both GMA and non-GMA members are receiving an
    	unacceptable level of ATM service from the DCU.  I'll keep my
    	account at BayBank (including the $2000 that's doing nothing other
    	than waiving monthly checking account fees) until some substantial
    	improvements are made.
    
    2.	ATM transactions *do* cost DCU something.  That's not at issue.
    	The question is whether DCU passes the costs on to their members.
    	I'd support a scheme that provides a small number of transactions
    	per month at no cost and additional ATM transactions at a nominal
    	cost (.50 each), subject to waiver for "preferred" accounts.
    	(I'll let someone else nail down the definition of a "preferred"
    	account.  Presumably, some calculation would be made based upon
    	the amounts on deposit and/or borrowed from DCU.  Chuck Cockburn
    	has raised the idea of waiving fees on a per-family basis -- that
    	sounds good to me.)

    I seem to recall the DCU claiming that they were simply passing along
    all or a portion of the fee they were being charged by the ATM networks
    offering DCU members access.
    
    A few years back my wife had an account at Shawmut.  She was being
    charged a fee for each transaction, not for each use of the card.  So,
    stick your card into the machine, make a balance check, make a deposit,
    make a withdrawl, get your card back -- your monthly statement would
    show 3 charges for that one use of the card!

>   <<< Note 555.7 by GUFFAW::GRANSEWICZ "DCU, a new credit union in town!" >>>

>    I don't understand.  Why is the level of service lower?  DCU would have
>    to utilize third party ATMs no matter what.  They can't be expected to

    The level of service is lower because you CAN'T MAKE DEPOSITS. The only
    deposit I can make to my "DEMFCU" account is my paycheck and expense
    reimbursements. When I get a tax refund, or other miscellaneous check,
    it HAS to go into a local bank account.

    --- Paul

I think I have it right now.  Sorry about the earlier unreadable
entry.  

How much does the DCU pay for tellers?  I am paying for that, but 
getting no benefit because I can't go into a branch.  It seems to
me that therefore, I should not have to pay for the only access the
DCU is able to give me -- ATMs.  I also do not feel good about mailing
endorsed checks, so use local banks.  As I will be moving to a 
small town in Oregon after SERPing, I really don't see how the DCU
can serve me.  What I really need is a booklet that gives me all the
info I need in one place.  Having moved several times, I seem to have 
lost most of the earlier communications I received from DCU.  Even
reading about the 800 number in this file was news to me.  That will
help me a lot.

This notes file has helped, but I'll lose access to that soon.

    I think you have to be careful when talking about costs and benefits in
    terms of geography.  I don't completly agree with the previous noter's
    statement that "I am paying for [DCU tellers], but  getting no benefit
    because I can't go into a branch".
    
    The DCU member in Casper, Wyoming does benefit in some way from there
    being DCU tellers in GMA.  Those tellers are dealing in a lot of 
    dollars.  This benefits every member, in terms of a healthy credit
    union offering highly competetive rates (I realize we aren't there
    yet).
    
    Likewise, members back east benefit from having a DCU ATM (or fee
    controlled access to a foreign ATM) in Casper, if it draws more member
    dollars into the credit union.
    
    Sure, I'd love to see the fees disappear entirely.  Alternatively,
    I would welcome a modest fee allowance for myself (I live in Nashua,
    NH), and it seems very reasonable to increase that allowance for members
    who don't live near a branch.
    
    Brian

    RE:.12

   > stick your card into the machine, make a balance check, make a deposit,
   > make a withdrawal, get your card back -- your monthly statement would
   > show 3 charges for that one use of the card!

    	DCU fees are the same.  I once made the mistake of checking my
    balance before I made the withdrawal at a Baybank ATM (silly me I wanted 
    to make sure there was enough money in the account) and on my next
    statement I was charged $1 for checking the balance and $1 for making
    the withdrawal, needless to say I don't check my balance from an ATM
    anymore.

    Joe 

    RE: ATM costs
    
    I think there is one point we seem to be missing ... we all can agree
    that there is a cost associated with ATM usage, but there should also
    be an increase in deposits madee available as a result of the ATMs, not
    to mention new customers that could be gained.  My contention would be
    that with a wider access to ATMs (whether in GMA or outside) you would
    increase membership or membership participation levels and access to
    greater funds should more then offset the minimal increase in costs. 
    Now a days, wide access to ATM machines is an expected service and
    should be considered a cost of doing business on behalf of the DCU -
    but more so in areas where a branch office is not readily available. 
    
    And I do agree that real numbers would be benficial in evaluating this
    issue.  We can all make up numbers ...

>                   <<< Note 555.15 by XAPPL::KEANE "Brian" >>>
>    The DCU member in Casper, Wyoming does benefit in some way from there
>    being DCU tellers in GMA.  Those tellers are dealing in a lot of 
>    dollars.  This benefits every member, in terms of a healthy credit
>    union offering highly competetive rates (I realize we aren't there
>    yet).

    If this is true... then there ought to be tellers all across the
    country, so that DEMFCU tellers can "deal in a lot of dollars" from
    outside the GMA. DEMFCU is missing out on a lot of business by being 
    so GMA oriented.

    
    
    Try this... picture life without tellers... without the ability to make
    deposits... how does it feel? We think you GMA people are spoiled and
    have nothing to cry about. Signature guarantees, sheesh!

    --- Paul

    Well, in regard to mail deposits, if they simply returned the next
    deposit envelope with a $.29 stamp on it, this would be a good start.

    I'd like to put my 2 cents in...... I have always had the convenience 
    of having a DCU branch in most all the buildings I have worked in.  In
    response to the messages I have read in this notes file from employees
    outside the Mass area.....I participated in a self test.  What I did
    was imagined what it would be like without the DCU Branch accessability
    and also the availability of a FREE ATM (for one week), and then took
    it one step further.....I actually did not allow myself to use either
    of these tools for banking transactions for one week.
    I don't think I have to describe what happened and how I felt about
    this situation!!!!!!  It was a royal pain in the butt! and COSTLY!!!
    Both time wise and money wise.  I relied on my joint account with my
    husband to perform transactions at a cost (ex. Deposit money - transfer
    to DCU account- withdraw needed funds)  if I had to do this all the
    time I for sure wouldn't be using DCU.  Thinking back on the
    experience.....I realized I didn't utilize the following: a DCU Teller,
    any DCU equipment, any DCU overhead costs......any cost for DCU
    except a very basic network fee of approximately 50 cents!!!! And I ask
    myself - WHY am I being CHARGED $1.00 fees everytime I use the an
    outside  ATM.  It appears to me that I am paying MORE than my fair share.
    And, if more people used the ATM's (which are extremly efficient) then 
    we would need LESS Branch offices which are costly to run 
    (operating costs), less tellers and much more equitable accessability 
    for ALL DCU MEMBERS! The key here should be ALL!!!! as in even those 
    who are not employees but members none the less who need Access to 
    the DCU.  As my untrained mind sees it......the DCU could enjoy an
    increase in $$$$$$ available to use (new accounts) less overhead and
    operating costs (smaller branch offices), better accessability to ALL,
    and a efficient 1990's image.  "Sometimes you have to change the way you
    think to see the light."
    
    Donna  

re: .20

Thank you for walking a mile in the other persons shoes.

Bob

�Thank you for walking a mile in the other persons shoes.
    
    See 539.37 for a report from someone who spent about 2 years in those
    shoes.

re: .22

I live in Texas, so I know how wacky the banking system is down here.  That
and the fact that my nearest DCU branch is in Colorado Springs, I don't even
try to do any real business with DCU.

Bob

I have seen some speculative numbers in here for the cost of transactions via
ATM.  Sure would be nice to have some REAL NUMBERS (pun intended).

As a contrast, Littleton has two Branch offices,  Marlboro has a Branch Office 
in MRO1/2 (essential same building),  There is another Branch in MRO4 which is
about 200 Yards away., and another in MRO3 listed in the Phone Book.

Two in Andover,
Actualy two in Maynard, one in Mill and one at HQ, The one in PK3 having been 
closed. 

Does it make financial sense to have so many branches this close to each other ?
particularly when we are being charged such high charges for the ATM use.

If some of these Branches could be closed or consolidated, what would that do 
to offset other expenses and return some of the $ to the members ?

>Does it make financial sense to have so many branches this close to each other ?
>particularly when we are being charged such high charges for the ATM use.

	It probably depends on how much volume is involved in those branchs.
	If DCU would still need the same number of people and teller stations
	for one building as two then the incrimental cost of the second office
	may be offset by a much better level of service.

	BTW, I believe a number of offices have been closed already because 
	of DEC closing buildings. BUO and APO come to mind. 

		Alfred

If there really are 3 sets of tellers between the four MRO buildings, then I
agree that the numbers need to be looked at.  It could be that one (or two) of
those sets of tellers could be replaced by an ATM (I believe that MRO3 has an
ATM).

Here in SHRewsbury we have tellers in SHR1, and an ATM in SHR3, which is � mile
away.

Rich

	One thing that has been overlooked so far is that the current fee
	keeps foreign ATM usage low. I don't use foreign ATMs at all because
	of the fee. If there were no fees, I might use them more, and I 
	suspect others would act in a similar fashion. Also, those using
	foreign ATMs now would probably increase their usage. When you are
	figuring how much "free" ATM access will cost the DEFCU, you have to
	figure that the current usage is the lower limit, not a realistic
	average of the costs if free access is allowed.

	Ideas:	Like the phone company allows you a small number of free
		directory assistance calls each month, allow a small number 
		of free foreign ATM transactions, maybe allowing them to be
		"banked" to twice the monthly limit, like we do with our 
		vacation hours.

		Have two types of accounts "branch" and "non-branch".
		A "branch" account allows access to branches and DEFCU 
		ATMs at no fee, with a fee imposed to use foreign ATMs.
		The "non-branch" account allows access to foreign and
		DEFCU ATMs at no fee, but a fee is charged for transacting 
		business at a real branch, if that business could have been 
		transacted at an ATM. That puts the mirror on the current
		situation.
	


					Tom_K

    re: .27
    
    When I was collecting petition signatures, someone suggested just this.
    Their suggestion was 5 free atm transactions per month, roughly I per
    pay period.  Of course, the transactions after the free ones would
    probably have to cost more than $1.
    
    Again, real numbers would be nice.
    
    Elaine

    I normally use the ATM adjacent to the DCU office here in CXO1. When I
    travel, I don't use foreign ATMs because of the charge. I use my
    non-DCU VISA card (a debit, not credit card) and keep my DCU balance
    low as a result.

    So the consequences of the ATM charge are that I keep most of my cash
    elsewhere.

	Re:.24

	Actually MRO has two branches and 2 ATM's!  There's a branch in
  MRO1 and MRO4.  There's an ATM inside MRO3 and there's a ATM outside MRO1.
  Noone we know could understand the reason for bothering with the addition
  of the ATM outside of MRO1, considering the number of places within the
  MRO complex.  Also MRO Security was not even consulted about the placement
  of the machine.  They certainly didn't want it where it ended up.

		Danny

    
    The MRO1 drive-up ATM offers 24-hour access to the membership.  The
    MRO3 ATM is on the second floor.  Considering the large number of DCU
    members in the Marlboro area (and at other buildings), I think the MRO1
    ATM offers a quick and easy way to get transactions done without
    parking the car and running into a branch to tie up a teller.
    
    I used it once and the only problem I had was difficulty reading the 
    screen with the sun shining on it.  What was the problem from a
    security standpoint?  It seems to be located in a very good place IMO.
    

    Any word on the actual costs for an ATM??  It would be interesting to
    see what the actual costs are and what the usage would need to be in
    order to cover those costs.  

    
    
    Keep in mind that an ATM at a remote site has to be loaded with money
    once a day and someone is normally on call to service it when it jams.
    Most banks also prove the atm once a day which takes a teller about
    15 minutes unless there is a problem.  These machines can be a major
    pain in the neck when they are misbehaving.  Unless you can show a 
    pretty good volume it is going to be cheaper to pay the $1.00 foreign
    ATM charge.
    
    Ken

Perhaps if one of the REAL Candidates who is now a REAL member of the BOD would
provide some REAL numbers nobody would have to speculate.

In agreement with -1, all those things and probably more would have to be done 
and are being done by banks all over the U.S. every day.  Some of these surely
service other banks for a fee and would be willing to do so for us as well.

It does seem that using the existing networks would be the most economical or 
they would be losing to the competition.

One question that could be answered very quickly is what is the cost to DEFCU 
for utilization of a network per transaction.  Is the fee such that higher 
utilization results in a lower cost per transaction.  I notice that the other 
networks are available through our ATMs - what do we get for that service.

Having the idle cash there would appear to be a major cost in addition to 
the floor space.

    
    You'll get REAL numbers as soon as we do.  I have spoken to some people
    at DCU about this info but it was all off the cuff.  I'd prefer to not
    post more approximations or guesses.
    
    But from what I was told the costs for a foreign ATM vary from network
    to network.  There is also a 'switching fee' that is incurred.  The
    approximate cost of one foreign ATM transaction was close to $1.  It
    was also mentioned that some banks are starting to add their own charge
    for the use of ATMs ($1).  If this happens then foreign ATM usage fees
    could nearly double.  Seems the banks want to bolster the ol' bottom
    line with some ATM fees.
    

re: .35

As someone else asked, I wonder if there is some sort of a volume discount
for foreign ATM transactions, because my bank charges $.75/transaction for all
foreign ATM transactions.

Bob

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe for the first time, I quit missing 
something, but:

Is it just me, or did we never have to pay a fee for using a real live (human)
teller?

It'd be pretty easy to sit down, work out how much a teller costs, how many
transactions that teller services in one day, divide one by the other, and come
up with the total cost per transaction that we can sock to the customer.

After all, we don't want to lose money on the tellers, do we?

(Yes, this is a reversal from my previous feelings on the matter.)

There's no doubt that DCU owned ATMs cost real money to run, and there's no
doubt that there are real expenses to DCU (meaning its members) using someone
else's ATM network for DCU member transactions.

It's just that one is "free", meaning that I can do teller assisted transactions
all day and not get charged, and the other costs, meaning that I have to pay 
some third party for the privilege of sticking my card in their machine.

The only problem is that I bet that if we compared costs, the real cost of my
doing a transaction via the teller would actually be more than that of me using
an ATM.  From a business perspective, it'd seem to me that it'd make business
sense to encourage people to use ATMs whenever possible (and not penalize them),
so the business wouldn't have to spend so much money on tellers.

Ok, all the tellers that I just put out of work:  I apologize.

I know that DCU isn't alone in making ATM transactions a "profit center", but
I just don't see any good reason for doing it.

�There's no doubt that DCU owned ATMs cost real money to run, and there's no
�doubt that there are real expenses to DCU (meaning its members) using someone
�else's ATM network for DCU member transactions.
    
    And like using a DCU teller, you don't get charged for using a DCU ATM. 
    For the reason you gave, you do get charged for using a 3rd party ATM
    (i.e. DCU gets charged and passes it on to you).

DCU gets charges and passes it on to me.

Then again, DCU gets charged (via their real expenses) when I use a DCU ATM or
a DCU teller.  It's just that this time, it doesn't get passed on to me.

What's the difference?  Well, with the foreign ATM, they get a very easy to
understand per-transaction number that says how much the transaction costs.
With the DCU ATM or teller, the expenses are there, and just as real (maybe 
even higher), but no one's worked out the real per-transaction expense.

So, even though using a live DCU teller probably costs DCU more money than me
using a 3rd party ATM, they're still going to encourage me to use the live DCU
teller, just because they don't have as a firm a handle on how much it costs.

The initial cost of an ATM is not cheap.  I would be willing to bet that it is
around $20,000 - $40,000.  Anyone know how close I am?  Add in the maintenance
and teller labor to support it, and it adds up.  Sure, DCU allows us members
free use of them.  But that cost is a part of doing business and is reflected
in lower interest on savings accounts and higher interest on loans.

If other users from other banks use DCU's ATM's, we as members should NOT have
to pay for the maintenance and labor costs for doing THEIR transactions.  I am
most certain that DCU charges other banks for their customer's use of our ATM's.

It is therefore reasonable for other banks to charge DCU for OUR use of THEIR
ATM's, and DCU merely passes on that reasonable charge to those who use non-DCU
ATM's.

    They may (or may not) be cheap ... to this point we do not have good
    numbers to work off of.  In any case, you need to look beyond that
    single number and begin to project any increases in business as a
    result.  One number will not answer this question.  
    
    re.35  There should be some standard numbers that are used in looking
    at the expansion of ATMs and it would be nice to hear them.  I guess I
    don't see your concern about sharing estimated numbers when you did
    that very thing earlier in this note.  I also don't think "You'll get
    numbers when we get numbers" is an appropriate response from a member of
    the Board of Directors to a customer inquiry.   You might consider
    putting some timeframes around your response (ie. "I'll have a response
    for you by next ...")                     

    I forgot to add that it would be nice to see some information on the
    costs of leaving the DCU branches open during lunch as well as the ATM
    information.

side issue but
New laws and Regulations require that the ATMs be made handicapped accessable
which will probably require re-installation or re-design.

I think that it is unrealistic for those of us who do not live within reasonable
driving distance of a DCU branch to expect to be able to use DCU as our primary/
only financial institution, due mainly to the time delays caused by the distance
between us and DCU.

I would like to see the effects of the distance minimized as much as possible.
For example, while the folks in GMA/CS may be able to get loan approval and a
check in their hands in 24 hours, it takes me almost two weeks to do the same.
Needless to say, unless DCU has some incredible rate advantage, I'll do my
loan business with a local credit union.

I also want competitive credit card rates and fees.  We are in the process of
upgrading my wifes silver card to a gold card.  The credit union offers the
card with 12.9% APR, 25 day grace period, no annual fee, no overlimit fee,
and NO CASH ADVANCE fee.  As on all cash advances, interest charges do start
on the date you get the cash advance.

While in the process of doing the upgrade, the credit union ran a credit check
and saw that we had recently gotten an auto loan with another credit union.
They called us and told us that if we would FAX them a copy of our sales
contract and insurance policy, they would beat the other credit union rate
by 1%!  They would handle the paperwork, etc.  So, my 8.25% 48 month car loan
with the other credit union would become a 7.25%  48 month loan with them.
They obviously value their members and want their business!

Bob

RE: Note 555.44 by SCAACT::AINSLEY

>While in the process of doing the upgrade, the credit union ran a credit check
>and saw that we had recently gotten an auto loan with another credit union.
>They called us and told us that if we would FAX them a copy of our sales
>contract and insurance policy, they would beat the other credit union rate
>by 1%!  They would handle the paperwork, etc.  So, my 8.25% 48 month car loan
>with the other credit union would become a 7.25%  48 month loan with them.
>They obviously value their members and want their business!

Bob,
	You have got to stop telling us these stories of your credit union!
Every time I hear one I feel like moving! :-)  I can only wish...

	- mark

    RE: charges to foreign users of DCU ATM machine
    
    I occasionally use the DCU ATM in MKO1 to access accounts at Boston
    Federal Savings. As with other ATM's (Baybank, etc.) I am charged
    $.80 per transaction.
    
    LINda

RE: ATMs

An interesting question is who actually owns the hardware.  The ATM I
frequent often (HLO2 entrance) has a "Digital Capital Asset" tag 
displayed prominently on it.  But, a lot of the DCU equipment I've seen
have inventory tags that describe them as being owned by "Digital Credit
Union."  So, I'm curious about whether DEC owns the machines on some sort
of deal with DCU, or if DCU owns them, or if some other outfit actually
owns them and one of DEC or DCU merely leases them.  All these scenarios
have different impacts on the cost of doing business and with the viability
of providing additional services to outside GMA members.

I guess I would expect total costs of an ATM on an annual basis to be in
the neighborhood of $100K.  But that's based on some questionable data and
some liberal back of the envelope figuring.  It will be interesting to see
the real data from someone on the BoD.


./Chris

    Wait a minute...

    GMA members get FREE transactions through tellers that "NON GMA" members
    help pay for but can't use.

    That being the case...

    

    "NON GMA" MEMBERS SHOULD GET FREE FOREIGN ATM USE THAT GMA MEMBERS HELP
     PAY FOR!!!!!!!!!

    

    Am I wrong here??? Wouldn't that only be fair???

    The more I think about this, the closer I get to pulling out of DEMFCU
    all together.

    --- Paul

.48> "NON GMA" MEMBERS SHOULD GET FREE FOREIGN ATM USE THAT GMA MEMBERS HELP
.48> PAY FOR!!!!!!!!!

Not necessarily.  If they were to all of a sudden give Non-GMA members free
ATM use, their expenses would increase.  This would cause an even FURTHER
reduction in what benefits ALL (GMA and Non-GMA) of us already get.

As far as I can see, Non-GMA members are NOT paying for the service that GMA
members are receiving.  This is because the benefits all of us receive are
higher than if they offered free ATM use to Non-GMA members.

I think note .49 contains a non sequitur.  The fact that there would
be less money for other things if non-GMA people had free or reduced
price ATM usage has no bearing on the question of whether they are
"paying" for something (the tellers) that gives them no benefit.
They are -- as do we all.  No DCU program benefits everyone equally.
Even the fee-free checking doesn't benefit everyone equally -- some
members "pay" for my fee free checking.

I think note .48 oversimplifies the issue a bit.  The DCU needs to provide
something to all of its members as a matter of fairness.  However, I think
the difficulty and cost of the DCU providing a benefit or service has to
be considered -- not just the level of service available to each member.
Serving non-GMA members is unfortunately more costly than serving GMA
members.  Also, I think indirect benefits of various services should be
considered -- e.g., the addition members (and their loans) pulled in by 
the current checking fee system.

That said, I think that more can and should be done for the non-GMA
members.  I don't think it is realistic or appropriate to reason about
this in a tit-for-tat "they have this so we should have that" fashion.
Instead, I think we should reason about it in terms of "we can better 
serve a particular group of members -- and thereby strengthen the DCU 
as a whole -- by changing how we deal with them".  

I think reduced cost ATM usage by non-GMA members is a good idea of a way 
to strengthen the DCU and to make it more attractive to a large group of 
members and potential members.  I think it also reduces some traditional
(and unavoidable) inequities, which also could strengthen the DCU.
However, there are a lot of practical details to consider in deciding 
whether and when this can be done.  I trust that the Board and DCU officers 
will consider this when they can.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

re: .49

>As far as I can see, Non-GMA members are NOT paying for the service that GMA
>members are receiving.  This is because the benefits all of us receive are
>higher than if they offered free ATM use to Non-GMA members.

As a non-GMA/CS member, the only services I can use are auto loans, long-term
investments, and the DCU credit card. I am indirectly paying for all the
branch offices and related services in the GMA/CS area in the form of higher
loan costs, lower interest rates on investments, and non-existent dividends.

A person in the GMA/CS area has three choices when making a cash withdrawal
from their DCU account.

	1)  Use a DCU ATM - direct cost to member - $0.00
	2)  Use a teller at a DCU branch - direct cost to member - $0.00.
	3)  Use a non-DCU ATM - direct cost to member $1.00.

A person outside of the GMA/CS area has only 1 choice.  Use a non-DCU ATM
at a direct cost to the member of $1.00.

The people in GMA/CS get one level of service and the rest of us get another,
probably lower level of service.  However, we don't get any discount on loans
or premium on deposits to reflect the fact that it costs less to have us as
members. (And I'm not saying that we should).

>Not necessarily.  If they were to all of a sudden give Non-GMA members free
>ATM use, their expenses would increase.  This would cause an even FURTHER
>reduction in what benefits ALL (GMA and Non-GMA) of us already get.

Suppose DCU closed down all branches within 1000 miles of your location and
removed all the ATMs, without lowering loan interest rates, raising deposit
interest rates, and without paying a dividend.  This would greatly reduce the
DCU expenses.  Would you be able to utilize the same services of DCU as you
currently do?  Would you feel that you were paying for DCU services that you
can't use?  Should DCU do that?  If not, why not?  After all, providing branches
and ATMs for your area raises their expenses and reduces the benefits to ALL
(GMA and non-GMA) members.

Remember the big stink over fees for checking accounts?  Because it isn't
feasible for me to use a DCU checking account, and you don't pay for yours,
the cost of providing your account gets passed on to me as an overhead cost
of DCU.

DCU can not be everything for everybody.  DCU must find the right balance
between services and fees for most people.

It costs $X to run all the branches that service Y number of people.  The cost
per person served is X/Y.  Perhaps for those who don't have a branch available,
they should receive some sort of ATM credit equivalent to X/Y.

Bob

re: .50

>Serving non-GMA members is unfortunately more costly than serving GMA
>members.

Perhaps this should say "Providing equal services to non-GMA members is
unfortuately more costly than serving GMA members."

After all, the only cost to DCU to serve me is the cost of maintaining
my $5 savings account and sending me my monthly credit card bill.

Bob

    re: .0
    
    The service I would really like to see is home loan availability in
    more states.
    
    -- Greg

When I did a DIR to see where to put this, it was interesting to find that as
far back as 1987 people were commenting upon the different level of service
given local vs. remote members.

I just received my latest Network thing and in it Chuck mentioned that a survey
indicated that more than 40% of DCU members have NO access to a DCU branch.

Perhaps DCU and the BoD need to re-evaluate the services provided to this rather
large minority of the membership.

Bob

    
    RE: .54
    
    I agree.  Could non-branch DCU members please state some changes that
    would get them to use DCU or use it more?  
    
    I know we have discussed offering a certain number of foreign ATM
    transactions per month for no fee.  Any others?
    

    You might need to further differentiate between members who have DCU
    branches in their home state, and those that don't.  For example, since
    there is no DCU in Texas, all my checks would be considered out of
    state and thus not accepted at many busineses.  Others would accept
    them because I have a Texas Driver's License.  But all, in all, I'm not
    sure what DCU could offer me other than quick, low cost loans.  When I
    buy my next car, if DCU is going to finance it, the rate will have to
    be competetive, and the dealer needs to be able to get his funds
    electronically.  The last I heard, DCU sends a check via snail mail
    made out to the dealer and myself.  One of my other credit unions
    simply gives me a draft number that I give to the dealer and he gets
    his funds that way.
    
    Bob

    Aside from ATM fees, my biggest gripe is making deposits. I maintain a
    local savings account for this purpose. This is an account that DCU
    could have if it was simpler to make deposits.

    How about providing mailing envelopes, postage paid, for sending in
    deposits?

    Actually, how safe is it to send endorsed checks through the mail?

    Paul

    I believe that you can endorse them for example ...
    
    For deposit only to the account of J&J DOE
    
    Or Account Payee Only
    
    How you squeeze that in the little endorsement area is another matter.
    Moreover, since some banks have accepted post dated cheques before
    their actual date, I don't know how efective the endorsement is.
    
    
    It would be useful to have an arrangement with selected banks in
    non-DCU but Digital towns to accept DCU deposits.
    
    
    Stuart

    Anyone have any ideas of how to make it simpler for remote members to
    make deposits?

    Paul

    re -.1
    
    I lived in California for 7 years, not near a DCU branch.  It was not
    convenient to use DCU for checking since local stores wouldn't take
    the out-of-state checks.  However, I still kept my DCU accounts and
    deposited by mail approx once a month, using my DCU account as a
    savings account (that I could access by writing a check).  DCU has
    (at least had) special envelopes for deposit by mail.  I would endorse 
    my checks "for deposit only DCU #xxxxxx" and then sign them.  I never
    had a problem for the 7 years I did this.  In fact, I found it a
    very convenient way to save.
    
    Janice

I'm not sure I understand this "out of state" issue.  As far as I know, there
is only one state where DCU is considered to be in-state, and that is
Mass.  In fact, I was under the impression that this was one of the reasons
that DCU didn't print it's address on the checks, but simply puts "DCU" w/o
an address - since putting the Maynard address would clue people in right
away.  I guess the routing code might clue people in too, but how many
people know how to read the routing codes?

The only thing I've ever had anyone look at was *my* address on the check, to
verify that it was an address in the "market area".  Not once have I had
anyone ask for DCU's address.

but I digress (and i'm probably wrong anyway).

In any event, one thing I would second for making remote deposits easier/better
is having pre-paid postage on the envelopes.  From my perspective, it's starting
to cost me more and more to try and continue to do business with DCU - I have
this $1 ATM fee, and a 29 cent stamp every time I want to make a deposit - i'm
learning to live with the variable delay cause by the U.S. Mail - though
at least with EASYtouch I can usually find out when the deposit actually
happened.

Of course, if I could get John Hancock to simply EFT my DCRA checks, then
I wouldn't need to make remote deposits (well, almost never).

--Scott