Conference unifix::sailing

    Who ever wrote that article/commentary has obviously been reading
    these "notes"....who's the rat fink?

    The author obviously never saw Jon, the skipper of Bodacious.  He
    dresses in what I would call "skateboard chic."  Not hard to spot
    him on the water!  And Bailey's stupid hat.  Definitely not psuedo
    nautical.
    
    And that comment about the spray in the face being beer.  Nonsense!
    It's rum man, rum!
    
    Dave

    Guess this pseudo Dave Barry type must've run into a bunch of cruising
    types (or worse yet, converted power-boaters).  Sailors who race don't
    talk about "solitude".  Hard to find that on a 36 foot boat with 11
    other people on board.  And cushions ??  Extra weight, throw them
    overboard, along with the door to the head.  And never heard a racer
    talk about how "relaxing" sailing is.  You get to relax AFTER the race
    is over and the boat's back on the mooring.  At least he got the beer
    spray part right, guess all sailors do have some things in common ...
    
    ... Bob

     Dave Barry is funny!

    How can I resist?
    
    The I-can't-believe-I'm-upwardly-mobile (aka neuveau pseudo
    rich) crowd do tend towards the bigger, over-equipped, luxo-yachts.
    They seem to be the same people whose only previous sailing
    experience is on their uncle's Sun Fish.  These people are sickening,
    and that they represent such a large market segment that respectable
    builders -- Swan and Baltic to name two -- pander to their tastes
    by compromising stowage and utility space is truely disturbing.
    
    It seems to me that real sailors, be they racers or cruisers, are a 
    dwindling breed.  Sort of begs the question as to what being a "real
    sailor" really means.  Eh?  
    
    

    Could there also be a direct correlation between the comfort level
    (defined as lots of cushions and the flower vases shown in the magazine
    ads) and the amount of time a boat sits at harbor either with or
    without the owners on board?  
    
    I share Deans disgust with those who think money is the only
    prerequisite to cluttering up the waterways with floating Winnebagos.
    If these people had really done their homework, they should have
    gotten something like a Grand Banks trawler and at least had the
    respect of those who know boats.
    
    Dave-whos-hates-throw-pillows-and-curtains-on-boats

    Personally I have no problem with people cluttering up the waterways
    with floating Winnebagos (except when they float their Winnebagos into
    the middle of a race).  Folks are free to spend their money any way
    they want, however silly I think it is.
     
    However, I DO have a problem with these same people referring to
    themselves as "sailors".  Same as I have a problem with their
    land-based counterparts with the 40-foot "campers" (complete with a
    whole lot of comforts I don't even have at home) who talk about
    "roughing it" and "getting back to Nature".  In both cases, they should
    refer to themselves honestly, as "vacationers", so they don't confuse
    people.
    
    ... Bob

    Listen to yourselves judging others on such superficial drivel as
    throw pillows and mustard!  What a shallow crowd you're turning
    out to be.  "Sailor" is not a title or status symbol as much as
    you may wish that it was.  And whether you race or cruise or stick
    to the coast line or travel off shore has no bearing on anything
    of any substantial value.  I've sailed since the early fifties,
    raced competitively for just shy of twenty years until I found it
    no longer fun, made my living as a licenced captain, and still don't
    call myself a sailor.  I still have too much to learn.  
    
    Focus on your skills and those things that you have to learn to
    both survive and to enjoy.  There is a lifetime of challenges that
    will require that your concerns be more appropriately directed.
    What you call yourself is of no consequence;  how other people
    see you is.  Right now you all appear as pompous bores engaged in
    petty finger pointing.  Stop wasting your time. 

     RE .8
    
      Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

    RE .8
    
    AMEN!

    Re .8
    
    Is that high horse you're on for sale?
    
    Dave

    re .6, .7, .8, and .11
    
    ........or is there a touch of post haulum depression going around? ;-)

    RE .8
    
    Oh EXCELLENT!!  You don't call yourself a sailor eh?  Betcha don't call
    yourself a pompous bore either ... 
    
    Personally I was responding to the article in the same shallow vein
    that it was obviously written, hoping to get some response from
    some self-righteous (uh, what DO you call yourself anyway ?), who can't
    recognize sarcasm when he sees it.  After all, what ELSE are we gonna
    do with this conference now that the season's over?  
    
    Why NOT talk about throw pillows and mustard?  After all, that's along
    the lines of what the author of the original note was talking about. 
    Do you WANT others to see you as the hung-over owner of a "40-stateroom
    sailboat with nuclear-powered heads, gimballed Barcaloungers, microwave
    croissant toasters, robot winches, and giant screen cable TV??"  (After
    all, you admit that how others see you is of some consequence.)  For my
    part, I'd like to put as much distance between myself and this imagery
    as possible.  After all, I've never sailed on anything with all that
    much gadgetry, and I also don't spout "nautical tommyrot" about "the
    splendor of the bay at dawn" or some of the other drivel that the
    author attributed to "sailors".  And incidentally, I also don't know
    anybody else that fits this mold.  So why SHOULDN'T I do a little
    "petty finger pointing".  Read my lips ... IT'S NOT REAL MAN !
    
    C'mon down here in the real world with the rest of us.  Put your 
    platitudes back in the bilge where they belong.  And lighten up a 
    little for crissakes.  We're just having a little fun, and not at 
    YOUR expense either.  It's pretty obvious to me that the original 
    entry wasn't done with anything even remotely resembling sincerity.  
    Why get all hot and bothered by the responses?  
    
    And if you want to call me a boar, at least spell it right ...
    
    ... Bob

    a sailor is
    according to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary  Page 1037
    
    a) one that sails 
    b) a member of a ship's crew
    c) a traveler by water
    d) a stiff straw hat with a low flat crown and straight circular brim
    
    How can somebody critisize the behavior of a "traveler by water" ?
    
    Haha haha......nice basenote
    
    
    Peter

    The artlcle by Barry was good humor and good fun...I had no problem
    with it at all...that was hardly the point.  By the way, while you're
    waiting for spring, read your dictionary (ref bore vs boar).  I
    gave up being pompous last year, but my cat finds me boring...boaring?
    at times both.  Snort!  

    The original entry wasn't written by Barry, I'm sure.  As was noted in
    .4, Dave Barry is FUNNY.
    
    Yes, I do know the difference between "bore" and "boar".  (I write for
    a living, I'd better know the difference.)  Those who know me can
    attest to the fact, however, that in my case the latter term is the
    more appropriate.  Sorry, my wit took a left turn without giving a
    signal.  What can I say?  I am from Massachusetts after all.
    
    Really, though, I do have a hard time taking all this very seriously.
    
    ... Bob

    Bailey, you're a boar.  There, I've said it, the world now knows,
    and I for one feel better.  By the way, I've got a great picture
    of you rooting around for grubs on our foredeck.
    
    Dave (your pal)

re last several:

Alright you guys, you all need a dictionary. A boar is an uncastrated 
male pig, a boor (the word you want) is a rude, clumsy person, a 
peasant.

So there!

Alan (who doesn't write for a living)

    And here I always thought that even though sarcasm was a form
    of humor, the underlying intent was to criticize.  As such,
    I found .0 somewhat aggravating.  I have been racing for 20-odd 
    years and cruising for 25 -- still enjoying both -- and although 
    there are many nautical things about which I should 
    know much much more, I do take exception to having such skills as
    are mine, my goals to learn more, my attitude towards the sea,
    and my perception of nature, subverted by insipid stereotypes.  
    The style with which one sails does have substantive value.  As Alan 
    Berens and others have observed, some clowns on the water are a danger 
    not only to themselves but to others as well.  Who would call them 
    sailors?  Not me. 

    ref .18
    Right Alan, but not to9o right.  A bore is one who bores eg. a
    machinist, a Red Sox fan, a Republican in an inflatable with an
    outboard coming alongside for a touch of grey poupon.   Cool it...
    who ever said that I could spell...what do we hire editors for?

    RE .17
    
    Dave, always happy to "make your day".
    
    RE .18
    
    Right you are!  And a "bore" is an uninteresting person, someone not
    worth listening to.  It's also the term used when referring to the size
    of the hole in a rifle barrel, or a term used to indicate what you do
    when you put a hole in something like a piece of wood or metal.
    
    So THERE!
    
    ... Bob (who's home sick, BORED, and doesn't have a dictionary handy)

    Well, since I'm the culprit who posted the base note, I suppose
    I ought to start contributing here.
    
    As most of you realize, the original author was not Dave Barry.
    But I'm sure who it was anymore. I'm new to this area and the amount
    of sail..., er, boating coverage in the local paper boggles the
    mind. There's 8 or 10 pages a week, at least. I don't know if he
    was a sailing reporter (racing or cruising - they have both), power
    boater, general boating, or one who normally writes for the leisure
    section. One thing I am pretty certain of is that he was just foolin'.
    I recall some sort of similar piece which was aimed at the
    powerboaters the following week. Neither was Pulitzer material.
    
    You should have heard the wailing a few weeks earlier when the mayor
    spent a sum of money equal to a new J24 to place a handcarved sign at
    the city line which says: "Welcome to Annapolis, The SAILING Capital
    of The World". Don't think he's heard the last of that one yet.

    J_R    

    Well, I'm glad we got THAT straightened out (bore, boor, boar).
    
    I stand by the previous note that I judge people by the boats they
    keep.  Not ashamed of it either.  It is probably one of the oldest
    traditions in sailing and not one likely to change.  A well found
    (oops, a nautical type word) little cruiser gets many more points
    in my book than a luxo-beast.  A lovely Concordia Yawl will turn
    my head quicker than a sparkling new Swan.  Chances are I would like
    to talk to the owner of the Conc before the owner of the Swan. 
    I'd rather talk to the owner of an obviously well used Crealock
    (Valiant, Westsail etc.) than of a mass produced clorox bottle with
    the infamous curtains and throw pillows.  Why?  Because I'll probably
    learn more from them.  Experience has shown me that they'll have
    more to say, and be more interesting.  Ofcourse I'd rather spend
    time with the B.N. of the new Windward Passage than any of the above,
    but that's just a racing predjudice.
    
    I defy anyone here to truthfully say they don't make snap judgements
    about people, at least initially, by seeing their boats.  I like
    to think that's why we're all so proud of what we have and strive
    to keep them in Bristol (damn, another nautical word) condition.
    
    Bob, hope you're feeling better soon.
    
    BTW, Annapolis might get an argument from Newport about that sailing
    capital stuff.
    
    Dave

    Where can I buy one of those croissant toasters?

    RE .24
    
    Mail order from Boats-R-Us, Annapolis, MD.
    
    ... Bob

    Ahhhhhhh..... its good to see this conference back to its usual
    spirited self !  There is nothing like a good "discussion" to 
    keep the interest going.
    
    JC
    

    I quite agree, nothing like a good discussion to keep the blood warm
    during the cold off-season months.  But I wonder, back in .1 it was
    mentioned that the author of the article in the basenote had access to
    this NOTES conference.  If he did, wouldn't he instead be writing a
    discourse on sailors with nuclear-powered egos and microwave tempers?
    
    And wouldn't he make some comment about our affinity for dictionaries
    (or our need for same)?
    
    ... Bob

    What's this "post haulum" stuff anyway?  You guys haven't actually
    put the toys away yet, have you?  The insurance policy runs until
    November 1, and that's when we haul.  Too bad a nor'easter is coming
    in this weekend.  Normally the best time of year for booze cruises
    with friends and crew.  
    
    Speaking of hauling, does anybody know anything about the deal at
    Little Harbor?  (Except that it's owned by Ted Moore?)  Anybody
    hauling there?
    
    Dave

    Well I hope to keep my boat in the water & sail evry week-end, weather
    permitting, of course.
    
    I have thouroughly enjoyed this leg pulling topic, & I would like
    to thank John for starting it.
    
    Howzabout creating another one, John, now that you have the sure
    fire recipe.
    		 Nick (ex TOEM Boat Person...)

    I figured .0 would generate some reaction, but not this much fun.
    No punches landed yet that I can tell.
    
    Well, for a new topic we could argue: Newport or Annapolis, just
    where is the capital? But, who cares? Not I. Maybe the respective
    boat show producers or Chambers of Commerce?
    
    Boats-R-Us is located on "Ego Alley" in downtown Annap. However,
    they are only the local dealer for croissant toasters. The USA importer
    is Defender - suggest you give them a call.
    
    J_R

    
    
    
    
    
                 Some bores are tidal, but they come and go.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE .28
    
    Yup, it's "post haulum" time.  WAGS came out last Sunday.  In fact, at
    JYC the DOCKS are getting pulled out next week-end.
    
    RE .30
    
    Yes, thanks John.  This turned out to be the liveliest topic in quite
    some time.  Just what we needed during those tough 2-3 weeks between
    sailing and skiing seasons.  (Ah yes, time to think about doing some
    serious cruising on some smaller chunks of fiberglass.)
    
    If you see any more "gems" like that one, do please post them.
    
    ... Bob
    

	I wehemently (did I spell it right) disagree with anyone portraying
	a Swan or a Baltic as floating condo! Being from the country that make
	them (and something like 99% are exported, we can't afford them),
	I still hold them to be some of the finest SAILING CRAFT in the whole
	world.

	Just a few notes on them. Both are made on the sw coat of Finland,
	in an area where boatbuilding has traditions that date back a few
	hundred years. Most builders are men that have built sturdy fishing
	crafts etc. for as long as they've lived or are sons of such people.
	They probably put up more seagoing expertise (any denomination) than
	this notes conference.

	I simply do not understand why people that gladly displace "good old
	typewriters and cardpunches" with the newest highkick technology 
	around cannot stand the sight of technological improvements on boats.
	This is not the stoneage, you can do other things than paddle a tree-
	trunk without being a moron (you can also be a moron).

	Swans and Baltics are SAILING boats. Just a few examples. Whitbread
	around the world in -78 (I think) was won by a run-of-the-mill, pro-
	duction Swan 65 sailed by a family crew. Every Whitbread has had
	at least a few Swans and Baltics entering. None of them has ever been
	forced to drop out due to technical problems. The around-the-world
	single-handed contest last year saw at least one production Swan en-
	tered (though it was redone a bit for singlehanded sailing) and it
	did very well compared to one-off racing machines entered. Other,
	smaller contests not mentioned.

	If somebody want's the comfort to go together with speed, super quality
	and advanced, hightech designs, who are we to blame them? Some of those
	guys would probably outsail most people that only have the experience
	with limited performance (non-trim, you can't go fast anyway) boats.

	Sailing is great and comfortable sailing still greater. I sure like
	to watch that sunset with a cold drink in my hand!

	H�kan

    Hakan, I agree with many of your sentiments and at the risk of incurring
    your wrath further  ask you to consider the view that the US as
    a whole have of European sailing and European boat builders. The
    European boat builders who export to the US tend to export their     
    most gadgety and luxurious craft to capture the upper end of the     
    US market, there are after all per capita more wealthy Americans     
    than Europeans. The sailing conditions, on the whole, on the US Eastern
    seaboard are somewhat kinder that Northern European waters during
    the season ie a wind strength of 5/7 in Europe is good potential
    passage making weather and is not uncommon, in the US those conditions 
    are moderately rare during the summer. Thus European boat builders
    will fit a boat for European waters differently to that of one destined
    for the US ie taller mast and concentration on luxury rather than
    say fitting lee cloths and galley bum straps as a matter of course.
    UK builders suffer the same reputation in the US as SWAN & BALTIC,
    especially A H Moody & Son , Oyster's . May be we should encourage
    some of our fellow noters from the US to try some European sailing.
    I certainly enjoyed the three years I sailed on the US Eastern Seaboard
    but the craft on the whole are fitted out differently for the different
    conditions. The sailing ethos is the same however. This is the wrong
    place but what the.....to express my sadness at reading of the loss
    of a Fat Tuesday whose progress I have enjoyed following through
    this notes file over the season.
                                                  
    Pete                                                                     
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                         

    Re: .33 and .34
    
    Hakan and Pete, 
    
    I'm rather astounded (stunned?) by your impression of the general
    sailing population in the US regarding the reputation of Swan,
    Baltic, and to a lesser extent, the UK boats you mentioned.
    
    I don't mean to belittle the UK boats at all, they (along with
    Camper Nicholson and a few others) are among the best production
    boats in the world. But they suffer from a disadvantage of not
    being well known, i.e. not heavily marketed in the US and it's
    mostly the instability of the dollar that has caused that. Only
    the French seem to have hit the window of opportunity a few years
    ago when the dollar was strong against the franc and they targeted
    new designs attractive to the US; I'm referring to Beneteau and Jenneau.

    I would think that Swans are on every US sailor's short list
    of boats to consider if/or when they hit the lottery. I know that
    when I strike it rich, it's off to Pietarsaari for me.
    (I'll bet that even Alan, who's idea of Nirvana is sailing off into
    the sunset on a Valiant 47, would be hard pressed to turn down a
    Swan 86 if the opportunity presented itself.)
    
    For some reason or other, and I'm not sure why, Baltics don't have
    quite the same reputation as Swan. Even though they seem to start
    out equal (built in the same town, even) in quality, and price;
    used Baltics generally don't command the same resale prices.

    At the Annapolis show, the longest waiting lines (how's this for 
    scientific proof?) were for boats from Denmark (Deerfoot), Finland
    (Swan), Taiwan (Little Harbor) and Maine (Hinckley) in that order.
    
   I know there is this image of the filthy rich American, but I assure
    you that there's not too many of us Noters who are going to be beating
    down Nautor's doors for their new little 36'. That puppy is going
    to sell for more than $200K US, less sails. The 43' will run about
    half a million dollars before it leaves the dock. This is a little
    steep too, even for us.
    
    J_R

re .35:

Wrong, John, I'm not interested in owning a Swan 86 or any other large 
boat. If it can't be sailed around the world by a crew of one or two, 
I'm not interested.

:-)

RE: -.1

>>>  ... boats from Denmark (Deerfoot), ...

Maya *was* built in Denmark, but Deerfoot is an American design, with
international input, I believe -- Steve Dashew et al.  The marketing arm
of the company is now based in NYC (recently sold), and the production/
consulting end is West Coast.  Unique, and extremely well designed for 
fast, fail-safe short-handed cruising in style without opulence.

They build wherever the material you choose will make it cheapest, or just
plain wherever you choose.  At a base of ~$770K for a 61-footer in
fiberglass being quoted for New Zealand construction today (aluminum ups 
the ante quite considerably), it ain't for the financially faint of heart!

J.

    re: .36
     Alan, to quote directly the Swan 86 literature: 
    
    ... there are numerous interior layouts with keel, rudder and rig
    options available to suit the yachts primary user. These include
    short handed cruising....
    
    Later they go on to describe how "the cruising couple"  etc. etc.
    
    Looks like it's right up your alley. ;^)
    
        
    Re: .37 
    
    "Maya" is the Deerfoot I was refering to. What a boat! I got the
    impression that it's replacement cost was in the $2M range?
    
    J_R
    

    re .13
    
    Bob, we don't think you are pompous!
    
    

    re. the Swan/Baltic hoopla
    
    Yes, these are amongst the finest yachts available in the
    world.  However, I regret that I'm seeing more
    and more of them equiped with triple state-rooms
    at the expense of a good work area and adequate
    hanging lockers, microwave ovens taking storage space,
    and lounge-like dinettes replacing good pilot-berths.
    The last Baltic I looked at made my mouth water,
    but there was hardly enough space to store spare sails,
    let alone to repair a torn sail or parted shroud.  

    Of course, these boats are semi-custom, and one could
    request different appointments, but the boats
    that end up at boat shows are "tricked-out to the max."
    It just annoys me to see these builders sacrifice
    good sea-going qualities that "real" sailors 
    appreciate for the sake of attracting the grey poupon/
    throw-pillow set -- and yes, there is room for mustard and
    pillows on seaworthy sailboat, but not as a fashion statement.
    
    With that, I would like to place an order for a Baltic 43
    equipped with...
    
    ;)
    

    Re: -.1  I think that is the exact point.  What could be great boats
    are pimped out with resulting sacrifices in true seaworthiness.
    
    
    BTW, I just plain do not like the looks of Swans.  Vastly prefer
    the Baltics.
    
    Dave

RE: .38 
    
>>>    "Maya" is the Deerfoot I was refering to. What a boat! I got the
>>>    impression that it's replacement cost was in the $2M range?
    
Maya is 74'.  And a pilothouse ketch, to boot.  $2M does not sound 
unreasonable (that is, only when compared to $770K for a simpler 61'
cutter), especially in light of her quite extensive electronics and other 
"special" gear -- full furling hydraulics, etc, etc.

Deerfoots (Deerfeet?) are exceptionally well-engineering and strong sea 
boats, depnding on size rather than design to get the space a short-handed 
cruising team "needs".

J.

    I think it has something to do with wave functions...  8-}

re .43:

No, Schroedinger invented the (quantum mechanical) wave function. 

    See page 5 of this month's Yachting for a small picture of one
    noters' Winnebago.
    
    J_R