Conference turris::womannotes-v5

    
    I'm posting this note here because we had a discussion in great detail
    about education and how long a person should be *schooled*
    
       Did anyone pick up on what President Clinton said last night about
    high school education being extended to an associates degree???  His
    *standards* are somewhat *lower* than mine, but we certainly do think
    alike education wise.  I think we should set education standards to a
    bachelor's degree in order to graduate.
    
      I guess I thought it was "kool" that the President thinks like I do
    or vice versa!
    

    
    Watch Clinton address? No, we watched the Exorcist instead!
    
    Eva

    How nice,
    
    And how does he plan to address the Bright and bored in most schools? 
    Push us out as has been done over the last 40+ years?  I also wonder
    what he planes to do with people who are never going to be more than
    barely literate.  
    
    

    
    I'm telling ya, Meg, it will work! 
    

    Nancy,
    
    It didn't work for me.  I am a highschool dropout, yessiree!, and a teen
    mother, and was a divorced single parent.  How do you plan to address
    those of us for whom public school didn't work then and wouldn't even
    knowing what we know now?  
    
    meg

    If you insist on making your life more difficult, how do you suppose
    the government should "address" you?
    
    It's difficult to figure out what you're asking for, Meg. It's in all
    of our best interests to A) improve the educations we provide our
    children and B) facilitate higher learning. So some people opt to
    shortcircuit the system. What do _you_ think the government ought to do
    to address such people? I don't see that they necessarily need to _do_
    anything more than provide opportunities. If some people elect not to
    take advantage of them, it's primarily their loss.

    Mark,
    
    I believe making more schooling compulory is not going to address the 
    problems we have now or in the past.  Making more education more 
    accessable for people when they are ready/desire it, sounds like a
    better way to go to me.  
    
    Like walking, talking toilet training, reading, math, and whatever
    people are not convenient little pegs that can be placed, just because
    someone desires it.  People's readiness for certainthings are always
    going to be different.  

    
    Hi Meg,
    
    I think education needs to become 'holistic' instead of just preparing
    children to solve mathematical problems or to write a term paper.  By
    holistic I mean that the education reaches every facet of interaction
    in life and teaches about all areas of the human, including spiritual,
    mental and physical.  By spiritual, I don't mean to say a specific
    religion, but teach children how to be in harmony with the rest of who
    they are.  
    
       There are things I never learned in high school. I could read and
    write!  I guess with today's standards, that is an accomplishment in
    itself!  But, college has given me a taste of what it means to be
    open-minded, accepting of all peoples, and to think of the world as a
    whole instead of divided in a negative sense.
    
       Children have been allowed to make too many choices for themselves. 
    Girls and boys can have sex and children without thinking about how it
    affects me, for instance.  I don't think children should be allowed to
    make certain decisions including a decision to quit school.  We need to
    teach children to look inwardly for answers, but then to look outwardly
    for others.  
    
       I don't know how you can say education didn't work for you, Meg, if
    you dropped out.   
    
    -Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I can say education didn't work for me BECAUSE I dropped out, or was
    pushed out, depending on how you look at it.  The utter refusal to look
    at a person, instead of someones' fantasy of what a person was supposed
    to be is what caused me to leave.  No I wasn't planning on a 4 year
    degree to teach school, didn't want to be a secretary or bookkeeper, I
    knew I had a mechanical/electrical bent, even then, but "girls" weren't
    supposed to follow that path in 1972.  I and several other women I know
    of ran into this problem of not being an appropriate peg for the holes
    that others wanted us to fit.  Hell, I went to school through CETA with
    20 other women like me.  I waited tables and taxi danced with other
    women like me who didn't fit into the mold.  One remains a great friend
    as well as a senior buyer for another computer company in town. 
    Another found the "spark" and now has her masters in quality
    engineering in a defense company in town.  One went down a completely
    different path and now contracts to the Dept of Transportation in NM as
    an archaeologist, another found she is happier as a waitress and parent
    to her 5 kids.  Yet another, older woman found her place as a
    bookkeeper after all and is happily employed as a night auditor for a
    hotel in town, but travels on occaision to other resorts as a secret
    shopper.  
    
    Trying to have fit anyone of us at the time the school system decided
    we were more trouble than we were worth would have resulted in the
    same, similar paths, but probably would have included stays in juvenile
    detention, babies being forcefully removed from our custody, and even
    more alientated people.  
    
    meg

    
    Nancy,
    
    	Nice thoughts, but...
    
    	The only problem I see with teaching spirituality to children
    is - who is qualified to teach such a complex concept? What you
    mentioned, IMO, is very much an eastern (Asian and Native North
    Amercian) approach to life. IMO, one's spirituality is rooted in 
    one's religion, one's upbringing and one's experiences, ie. they 
    are not separable. As we have separation of church and state, I 
    think it is very difficult to teach an approach to life without 
    major problems. In a homogenous society, I suspect that it is much 
    easier to teach one approach to life as everyone is practicing it 
    everyday - it is the accepted approach. I was never taught the eastern 
    approach in a classroom setup when I was growing up in the way of 
    "do this do this". However, the philosophy behind the approach was 
    taught in literature class, in language class and in history class 
    as we read the books  and the life stories of the famous teachers 
    and philosophers (like Confuscious and Lao Tze). Even so, the biggest 
    influences for me were people who actually acted out those philosophies 
    in real life. At this point in time, as a parent, I would very much 
    prefer to teach my child *MY* approach to life, as I haven't yet met
    any teacher who is better qualified to do so.
       
    
    Eva 
                             

    Hi Meg,
    
       I find your response heartwarming because to survive at a level we
    want to survive at we will push ourselves to work until we are
    exhausted.  And that is something you did.
       I, too, feel like a fish out of water quite frequently.  I have fit
    and tried to fit into molds of behavior expected of me.  Lately I've
    broken quite a few of those molds!  
       The kind of education I believe in is not of the 1970's.  I
    graduated in 1973 and I know what you are talking about when you say we
    lived up to a fantasy other people thought we should be.  
       If you look at education as breaking molds instead of causing them,
    that is the kind of education I am thinking of when I say we need to
    keep children in school four years longer.
    
    -Nancy   

    
    Re: .155
    
    I agree with you Eva.  I wish all Mothers were as understanding of
    parenthood as you are.
    
       Great teachers like Confusicus had quite a bit of logic to teach.  I
    agree with you that we should take what we think of as logical and
    enjoy the rest as what someone else experienced in that particular time
    and in that particular era.  
      
       I would never tell someone to seek Nirvana (sp) but I believe Budda
    had other valuable logic and spiritual understanding that I agree with. 
    I'm not asking for schools to bite into a specific philosophy or
    religion but to help children learn 'how' to get in touch with their
    spirituality, show them the beliefs of wise people centries old or
    still living, and allow them to form their opinion of what is truth.  
    
       The problem is that many children haven't got a clue that there is
    anything more than Catholicism and Protestantism!  Why?  Because their
    parents were Catholic, so they are Catholic. Or vice versa.  They are
    not stimulated mentally to look further into spiritualilty, and many
    are so turned off by people who claim to be real Christ-like leaders
    and are not,  or that their church does not accept something about them
    that makes them different from others.
    
       I could go on and on about this one but I won't.
    
    -Nancy
                                                       

    
    Nancy,
    
    	>I wish all Mothers were as understanding of parenthood as you are.
    
    	Wow, I don't think I have big enough a head to fit the hat above
    ;-). Thanks.
    
    
    	> religions...
    
    	I do know of some folks who are Christians with their spiritual
    emphasis on The Family, where compassion and love of life is abound.
    I notice close knit relationships in families originated from the 
    old world, where material pocessions play second to enjoyment of
    friends/family/arts/good times. In this country, IMO, people are made 
    to work so hard that life is not too much fun after a while. I think
    due to the general lack of a supportive extended family, each nuclear
    family has to carry all the burden that would otherwise been shared
    by some relatives. When everyone is stressed out to a degree, it is 
    difficult to maintain a positive mindset and an appreciation of life 
    itself, IMO. Parents can no longer expect their children to care for
    them in their elder years, so they have to work harder to save for
    retirement. Parents also have to work harder to teach/care for their 
    children as there no extended family around. So, all in all, we have
    a higher living standard based on materials, but we are not doing as
    good in humanity, IMO. Well, this country is only a hundred years old,
    it has a lot of time and space to grow - it is an ongoing experiment!
    When I was younger, "old fashioned" wasn't hip, now I realize some
    of the old stuff is indeed tried and true (have seen hundreds and
    thousands of years of clinical trial!). I think this country has to
    go through some growing pains, that's all.
    
    
    Eva 
    
      
    

    An interesting school with an alternative concept can be checked out
    at http://www.com/webnet/svs/catalog.html.  This place, the Sudbury
    Valley School looks great on paper, but we didn't find it a very
    supportive or encouraging environment for our second grader back in 
    1994.  Still, I believe in this model of schooling, and I understand
    that there are very succesfull schools using the SVS concept in 
    other parts of the country (we were pen-pal-ing with some for a 
    while).
    
    I'm not at all surprized that they have a homepage. I'll bet the kids
    maintain it.
    
    	=Susan  

    I'm still looking for alternative approaches for education...each
    year you hear so much about how kids learn differently and today's
    education doesn't seem to keep up with the science.  They have just
    recently announced this year that teenagers need more sleep because
    of hormone changes and that starting school at 7:30 is not a good
    concept and that they should start at 8:30 etc...yet, education
    seems not to be able to switch over and agree with scientific findings.
    
    also, teachers are not evaluated properly.  How can you evaluate a
    teacher is what I want to know.  I went through 12 yrs of school and
    can remember the most horrid teachers that I absolutely learned
    nothing from...and my son is having the same reaction.  He is a bright
    kid who basically felt he is getting no education at all.   He has
    been through teachers who have told that they "hate teaching" or
    "hate the class" = he has had teachers who got divorced and "aired"
    there dirty laundry in class instead of teach....how as parents can
    we prevent this?  I know teachers who have told me that they know
    some teachers are BAD teachers and shouldn't be in the system yet
    everyone turns a blind eye...(is this because of the teachers union?
    like stay united no matter what?)
    
    And you know us adults...we sometimes don't listen to our kids or
    think they exaggerate the situation....but when they are all telling
    the same story...you wonder huh?  
    
    So anyone have any answers?  I'm so confused....

    first thing.
    
    get yourself in for a conversation with his teacher(s).  sometimes
    explaining that a child needs more of a challenge in X subjects will
    get some teachers motivated, especially when they realize there is a
    caring parent that comes along with the kid.  If he really isnt getting
    challeneged and you get no where with the teacher(s) get the kid to the
    library, or somewhere for enrichment in those subjects.  
    
    meg

    I already been that route...I told the teachers that my son had
    problems with and what I feel he needs as a person...ha ha ha ha ha..
    I was talking to a brick wall.  I have sent letters to the department
    of education, the principal etc....the one I love is if you show no
    interest - your a bad parent...if you show too much interest than
    your a busybody...you can't win....
    
    I like to know is what does the department of education do?  they only
    answered one of my letters when I did eventually get one issued
    resolved!  ;-)
    
    but the question still remains...how can teachers be evaluated by
    the system?  I mean how do you know teachers teach what they are suppose
    to be teaching and that they are effective...I know putting monitors
    in the classroom violates civil rights...so what's the other
    alternative?
    
    We in the past have put doctors up on a pedestal and we are now
    as a society questioning our doctors - shouldn't we do the same
    with teachers?  As Socrates said..."always question why"...
    
    
    
    

    Have you pulled a Chapter 766 evaluation yet???  If you are in
    MA that is...

    No, I'm in New Hampshire.....what's chapter 766?  sounds
    interesting...
    
    /bobcat
    

    It's the Mass Law for Learning Disabled Humans in school.  I 
    really wouldn't know the law in NH that correlates to it.  It
    covers kids who can't learn in the normal manner in the class-
    room.

    justme