Conference turris::scandia

  You're slamming us poor Finns right on the face again... incredible
  discrimination... WHY SHOULD THIS NOTESFILE HAVE A
  SWEDISH/DANISH/NORWEGIAN NAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
           
  :-)
  
  To remain neutral, how about 'FENNOSCANDIA' ?
  

  Well, I'm glad I didn't just go ahead and rename it with consulting.
  
  Sorry, I'm no diplomat :-)
  
  FENNOSCANDIA doesn't seem to bad to me, except that it's a bit
  long - liable the end up as 'FEN' in some Notebooks?
  
  How about if the Finns just: "MODIFY ENTRY SCANDIA /NAME=FINN"
  in their Notebooks, and the Scandinavians leave well enough alone?
  
  Neil (about to wish he hadn't brought up the subject of renaming)
  

  Your last suggestion is fine with me, as long as you implement
  a filter function in VAXnotes so that I don't see any Sweden-related
  notes anymore after having done a /NAME=FINN ....
  
  :-)

  Re: .3:
  
  But I'm just a naive writter; maybe one of the Notes developers
  will read this and offer a suggestion on how to implement the
  "no Swede" filter :-)
  
  NS

  Funny, I named this conference NORDIC in my notebook as soon as I
  say the first note... in honor of the Nordic Council (at least
  Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, AND FINLAND, according to my hazy
  memory, and perhaps Greenland at al as well).  It was intuitively
  obvious to me that no conference on SCANDIA would last long without
  Finland appearing... but I'm biased, as my only contact with the
  area has been Finland. 
  
  Steve
 

  I guess Greenland is included in a way too, being sort of
  semi-independent area administered by Denmark.
                            
  

  Yes Greenland too.
  
  NS

I don't get the point. What's wrong with SCANDIA?
  Isn't Finland part of Scandinavia?!?!?!?

  Re: .8:
  
  According to strict usage, the term Scandinavia(n) should apply
  to peoples that speak a language derived from Old Norse (i.e.,
  a language that has a North Germanic root).  Finnish (Soumeksi)
  is *not* one of those.
  
  However...  
  
  (1) Swedish is spoken in Finland as a "second" language.
  
  (2) Sweden and Swedish culture did (still does?) have a profound
      influence on Finnish culture (see 'Profile' note).
  
  (3) To pool resouces, the Finnish Tourist Board has joined the 
      Scandinavian Tourist Offices, and is represented in their
      literature as tacitly being a Scandinavian country.
  
  In short, much confusion has been created on this point.  My
  reading is that, to all but the purists amongst us, Finland *is*
  part of Scandinavia.  I will henceforth regard it as such.
  
  Neil
  
  

One should distinguish between geographical, cultural and political 
nomenclature.

Geographically, Finland is definitely NOT in Scandinavia (but neither are e.g. 
Iceland and Greenland.)

Politically, Finland is a member of the Nordic council; the member countries 
are often called 'Scandinavian countries' (which strictly speaking is not 
quite correct).

Culturally, there isn't much question, though the Russian influence has 
obviously been strongest in Finland.

P.S. George Schultz, in an interview before his trip to Europe a couple of 
years ago said somthing like this: "I'm goint to visit five free European 
countries and Finland."      ~\~

Well, did you know that SCANDIA is one of the biggest insurance companies in
Sweden... thus, this notes file should discuss... insurances!

;-)

	...ankan...

ps.
	fun to see that Scandinavia is quite well known out there...
ds.

  An excerpt from the editorial of SCANORAMA, the magazine ('your
  free copy') you will find in the seatpocket in front of you on
  any SAS (Scandinavian Airlines System) flight:
  
     Scandinavia is unique.

     We Scandinavians can speak our respective language and still
  understand each other. All three of our countries are democracies.
  We live in peace and harmony. We don't threaten our neighbours.
  
     I don't know of any other three neighbouring countries anywhere
  else in the world that can match Denmark, Norway and Sweden in
  all four of these respects.

  ...
  
  Well, do you see Finland included? On the other hand, SAS may
  not be the ultimate authority on this subject (maybe because
  the naughty Finns didn't join SAS but operate their own national
  airline, Finnair ?).  :-)

By objective measure (whether or not tv is subtitled), Swedes
can't understand Danish.

Martin.

    Re: .13:
    
    I once overheard an interesting exchange between a Dane and a Swede
    (the conversation was translated for me to be sure I got it right).
    It was on a ferry ride between the two countries.  The Swede bought
    something from a vendor and said in parting [trans.] "You Danes
    speak Swedish terribly."  To which the Danish vendor replied,
    "You Swedes speak terrible Danish!"
    
    It was all done with a :-) but illustrates the language relationship
    quite well - perhaps slightly worse than a southerner from the US
    conversing with an Australian.
    
    Neil

	RE: .14  

		Touche'

		or is that 'touche eh! ( a la McKenzie brothers in Canada ).

			\rik

    Renaming the file to NORDICsounds like it would fit the bill for
    all the countries up north [including island and gronland]

    As per earlier replies, it would seem the best solution is for each
    reader on this conference to do the renaming in their own Notebook.
    That way everyone gets to use the name they like best. 

    NO ONE IS PROBABLY READING THIS NOW BUT I AM NEW TO THE NOTES FILE
    AND I DO NOT AGREE THAT THE SWEDES CAN'T UNDERSTAND DANISH BECAUSE
    THE DANES CAN UNDERSTAND THE SWEDES.  JUST DROP ALL THOSE "G" LIKE
    THE DANES DO.

    From: [email protected] (Kjartan Stefansson)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Scandinavia v. Nordic 
    Date: 24 Jul 90 17:22:39 GMT
    Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept. Ithaca NY
 
    [email protected] (James E. P. Saari) writes:
 
   >"scandinavia" is derived from the latin "scandia", referring to the northern
   >germanic language group. using this definition, this would include iceland,
   >norway, sweden, and denmark, with finland getting an honorable mention
   >because of its swedish speaking population.
 
    This is new to me.  I didn't know this meaning of the words
    Scandia/Scandinavia.  But despite this, I don't think there will be an
    agreement on what Scandinavia spans.  My dear friend, Webster, has the
    following explanation:

	(1) "the region of N.W. Europe embracing Norway, Sweden and
	Denmark.  Iceland is often included, on ethnic grounds, and
	Finland sometimes, on geographical and historic grounds"
	(2) "the peninsula formed by Norway and Sweden"
 
    In Iceland, Scandinavia is used both in the sense of (2), or the three
    countries, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
 
    We also have the ill-defined term of "speaking Scandinavian".  That
    refers to the language an Icelander speaks in Scandinavia, based on the
    Danish he learns in school, adding Norwegian/Swedish/Icelandic words as
    necessary, pronouncing it the best way he can, depending on the country
    he is in!
 
    Kjartan.

    From: [email protected] (Jon Bragason)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Scandinavia v. Nordic 
    Date: 25 Jul 90 15:50:09 GMT
    Organization: Florida International University, Miami
 
 
    	Reading these articles on the word Scandinavia	I started thinking
    about how I myself used the word.  I realized that I use the word	
    differently here in the US than I do back home in Iceland.  Here in the
    US when talking about Scandinavia I am inlcuding both Iceland and
    Finland.  However when using the word back in Iceland I am referring to
    Denmark, Norway and Sweden.  It is hard to say when Finland is	
    included when using the word Scandinavia.
 
	                                                 
    	In Iceland I think we tend to use the word Nordurlond (the Nordic
    Countries) more than Scandinavia because Scandinavia is not an	
    Icelandic word and propably because we would like to be included in the
    discussion of the Nordic Countries and their culture.
 
					Jon Arni Bragason
					[email protected]

    I have always considered this a simple algorithm, if you only accept
    that words have different meanings in different countries. The formula:
                                                           
    	"Scandinavia" is the English term for our word "Norden".
    
    No hair-splitting needed, as long as you use the right term in the
    right country/language/milieu.
    
    BTW, this is not so strange. Think of how the word "yank" is used
    by
    
    	an Englishman
    	a Mississippian
    	a Bostonian
    
    It's all in the eye of the beholder.
    
    Mauritz
    

    From: [email protected] (David L. Golber)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Scandinavia v. Nordic 
    Date: 27 Jul 90 15:35:52 GMT
    Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
 
 
    I happened a while ago on the address list (paper) of a bunch of
    anthropologist-types called "FANG", which stands for "Fennoscandia and
    Norden Generally"!!!!
 
    Back, Fang!

    From: [email protected] (Lars Henrik Mathiesen)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Scandinavia definition
    Date: 20 Sep 90 15:34:17 GMT
    Organization: Department Of Computer Science, University Of Copenhagen
 
    [email protected] (Lennart Boerjeson) writes:
    >Well... there are no "official" definitions, but in my opinion
    >"Scandinavia" should be viewed as a *geographical* term which refers to
    >the scandinavian peninsula plus Denmark. "Nordic" refers to S,N,DK plus
    >Finland, Iceland, Faeroe and semi-autonomous regions, ...
 
    While it is not relevant today, the origin of the word Scandinavia is
    interesting. In the oldest source (some Roman writer, possibly Tacitus)
    it scadinauia, but it is soon corrupted into scandinauia. The first
    form probably represents (Very-)Old-Norse ska\din-auio (\d is eth,
    ``soft th''). ska\din is probably the word that evolved into Sk\{aa}ne,
    the name of the southernmost county in Sweden, and auio is the word for
    island.
 
    So, Scandinavia once meant "the island of Sk\{aa}ne". At that time,
    southern Sweden was probably separated from the surrounding country by
    trackless forests, and to a seafaring people it might as well have been
    an island. Linguistically, the original dialects of Sk\{aa}ne, Bornholm
    and the Copenhagen area are closer to each other than to the rest of
    Sweden _or_ Denmark.
 
--
Lars Mathiesen, DIKU, U of Copenhagen, Denmark      [uunet!]mcsun!diku!thorinn
Institute of Datalogy -- we're scientists, not engineers.      [email protected]

So, if I were to distill the previous replies into the 
following, everyone could live with it?
  
"Scandinavia":

- "Scandinavia" can be used as a _geographical_ term refering to
  the land-mass established by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. 

- "Scandinavia" can be used in a _historical/cultural_ context to reference
  peoples that speak a language derived from Old Norse (i.e.,  a language 
  that has a North Germanic root).  This would include: Iceland, Greenland, 
  Sweden, Norway, and Denmark.  Finland would not be included due to it's 
  stronger linguistic/cultural influence from Russia.

"Nordic":

- "Nordic" is a political/governmental term refering to the member-countries
  of the Nordic Council: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, the 
  Faeroe Islands and other semi-autonomous regions (Greenland).

 
j.

   From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
   Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
   Subject: Re: Scandinavia 
   Date: 11 Nov 1993 18:29:17 GMT
   Organization: University of Helsinki
 
Aeronavic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as 'the countries that run SAS Airline', then
Denamrk, Norway, and Sweden are Scandinavia.
 
Geographical definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries located on the Scandinavian
peninsula then Norway and Sweden are Scandinavia.
 
Heraldric definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries with flags which are variations
on the Dannebrog then Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
Finland, �land, Ingermanland (!), and Karelia (!!!!!!) are Scandinavia.
 
Iscythophagic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where people eat pickled herring
whenever they have the opportunity then Iceland, the Faroes, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, Finland,and �land are Scandinavia.
 
Sociopolitical definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where Social-Democratic-style
welfare states were etsablished and flourished up until about 1990, then
Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and �land are
Scandinavia.
 
Restrictive linguistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where languages descended from
Old Norse are spoken as the majority language then Iceland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and �land are Scandinavia.
 
Liberal linguistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where languages descended from
Old Norse are spoken by a significant segment of the indigenous population
and have official status then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, �land and Finland are Scandinavia.
 
Architectural definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where functionalism plays a
major role in design and architecture then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, �land and Finland are Scandinavia.
 
Mulieroliberitarian definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where women's liberation has
been more or less taken for granted at least since the end of the past-war
period then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, �land
and Finland are Scandinavia.
 
Numismatic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries which use crowns and ores as
their currencies then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, and
Denmark are Scandinavia.
 
Alcohol-political definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where society tries to make you
feel guilty if you want to have a nip then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, �land and Finland are Scandinavia.
 
Nordic union definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where you can move from country
to country without your passport being inspected if you are fair-haired and
blue-eyed then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, �land and
Finland are Scandinavia.
 
Imperialistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries in northern Europe which are or
have been under the rule of a herring-eating, vodka-drinking, singing or
coughing-language speaking country, where children tend to have names
ending in -son/-sen (or -dotter) then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, �land, Finland, Ingermanland, Karelia, Estonia, as
well as the Virgin Islands, St. Eustacia, Delaware, northern Minnesota, the
northern peninsula of Michigan, van Etten, New York; Bay Ridge, Broooklyn;
Lake Worth, Florida; Los Pacos, Spain; Kalinin, Russia; a considerable part
of Mallorca, Spain; Rhodes, Greece; as well as considerable chunks of
Namibia and Ghana are or have been Scandinavia.
 
I certainly consider southern Finland, where Swedish is spoken to some
degree, people eat tons of pickled herring, drink vast amounts of vodka,
often have names ending in -sson, are deconstructing a social-democratic
welfare state, gave women the vote almost a century ago, are totally blas�
about pronography, have an arrogant alcohol monopoly, salute a crossed
flag, like to read about the Swedish royal family, celebrate midsummer, eat
open-faced sandwiches with piles of prawns on them, are heavily into
functionalism, and generally mind their own business to be more Astrid
Lindgrenish than Dosteyevskian. Even the most obtuse person notices how
Scandinavian (at least southern) Finland is if he or she, after having
spent time in Helsinki, visits Stockholm, on the one hand, and Tallinn, 
St. Petersburg, and Hamburg, on the other.
 
-- 
With best regards,
Eugene Holman
University of Helsinki

    From: [email protected] (Jorgen Skyt)
    Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
    Subject: Re: Swedes vs. Danes???
    Date: 6 Jun 1995 00:49:05 GMT
    Organization: News Server at UNI-C, Danish Computing Centre for Research
     and Education.
  
    How Danes view Swedes? I (Dane) too, have yet to find out! ;-)
 
    For one thing: it depends on your whereabouts: In Elsenor (Helsing�r) 
    and other places, it is obvious that there is a difference between
    Danish  and Swedish alcohol policy - helping to the loss of respect for
    Swedish  one-day tourists. But this issue is changing. The more
    frequently the  traffic from Sweden to Denmark is, the lesser the
    differenses, to my belief. Having a laugh because of the Swedish
    alcohol policy will soon stop now,  as Sweden is part of the european
    community (or was it "Faereinte  Laendern Neuropas"!).
 
    More and more young Swedes are seen with 'european' (shorter)
    hairstyle, and lesser alcohol percentage in the blood ;-). I think the
    younger generation of swedes may be more (sorry!) european than the
    elder generation. But that is only little me thinking :-). Then again,
    I think that the overall perception of swedish culture, from a danish
    point of view, has more to do with the distance between eastern and
    western denmark. 
 
    The press - of course - has a lot to do with this. And then again: The 
    language used in TV and radio! I myself come from the western part,
    where most people  understand German because of the TV, just as the
    majority of eastern  Danes understand Swedish because of the Swedish
    TV. So When I moved to  the eastern part, I was wondering why noone
    understod German, as well as  the natives wondered why I didn't
    understand Swedish! (I remember I almost hated Swedish in school, when
    we HAD to read it - "because it was  a part of our common scandinavian
    culture"! It wasn't to us - in southern  Jutland!!)
 
    But this important factor is slowly changing because of the
    "hybrid-network" which allowes almost anyone to freely choose between
    German, French, Swedish, British, Turkish - or even Norwegian
    television! 
 
    But we have a lot of trouble with certain words. As when a Dane says 
    "this is free to take", Swedes think we are saying "congratulations!". 
    And when a Dane says "This is nice and cosey", the Swedes understand it
    as  "This is funny". But really - those are just minor problems...!
 
    J�rgen Skyt 
    Denmark