Conference trucks::football;1

    
    When Tom owns up, the referee will no doubt reverse his decision and
    change the result. You guys are still waiting for our Jeff to come
    clean so you can win the '66 World Cup...... 8-)
    
    JBG

    Re -1
    
>    change the result. You guys are still waiting for our Jeff to come
    
    
    Trying to change nationality then Jon ?  If it's past World Cup Glories
    that you're after then stick with England. If, however, you want a
    chance of some future Glory, perhaps you should allign yourself with
    our boys in Green !!!;-)
    
    Jerry.
    
    P.S. Wasn't he "Geoff" ?

    
    Jerry,
    
    1)    as you well know, I'll be rooting for your little green chaps this
    summer - thats why I've already arranged to be in Irleand for the final.
    
    2)    Jeff is easier to spell!
    
    3)    How's your headache??
    
    JBG
    

Hi,

I wrote in this conference because I want to know the possibility for the
player to help the refree make a decission.

BTW, I'm not German, I'm Indonesian who support Germany team !

I hope Germany will be World Champion 1994 ;-)

VIVA GERMANY !!!!!

Regards

Tonny

   Tonny if Thomas Helmer got down on his knees and pleaded with the ref that
the decision was wrong it would still not change anything.. The DFB (German FA)
will make a decision today because the opposing team N�rnberg have filed a 
protest. The ref said on TV last night that if N�rnberg had equalised with their
penalty in the last couple of mins that none of this action would have happened.

   Thomas Helmer and no other football player anywhere would run to the ref and
claim the goal wasn't a goal especially when you need only a few points to win
the league.....

                                                hope this helps........

                                                       -dave-

The German Football Ass. has a paragraph 25 in his rules. That says, that a
new match had been to play, if there has been an irregulary decision from the
referee (with proof, such as TV) and the match has ended equal ore with a
minimal differnce.

In the year 1978 in TV was shown a goal - the ball was shot from outside 
through a hole in the net into the goal - which has been 100% irregulary.
This was the game Neunkirchen - Stuttgarter Kickers (4:3).

This game had to be repeated and therefore most of the German officials are
sure, there will be a new match.

Heribert

>>The German Football Ass. has a paragraph 25 in his rules. That says, that a
>>new match had been to play, if there has been an irregulary decision from the
>>referee (with proof, such as TV) and the match has ended equal ore with a
>>minimal differnce.


Well why don't they assess the Video proof imediately after the Goal and not
after the match. It seems ridiculous to replay the whole game when the dispute
could have been resolved during the game.

IMO a game should not be replayed unless it had to be abandoned for some reason.
It was a bad decision by the Ref. One of the joys of soccer :-)

Regards,

Peter.

    
    Wow, thats incredible. I played in a match where we had no nets (I
    don't think this is allowed anymore) and our center forward completely
    beat the keeper with a shot into the top corner. The keeper didn't
    move, and the short-sighted ref decided it was a miss.....
    
    As you say, Heribert, that a precident has already been set, it will be
    interesting to see if the match is replayed... Think of what could
    happen if we applied this to the international theater.... England find
    themselves replaying the '66 world cup (presumable with the original
    teams?) and also the '86 semi-final against the argies.... Wales might
    even be able to qualify for the '78 & '80 finals after the Joey Jordan
    incidents!!!! 8-)
    
    JBG

    And Killie would be in the final of the scottish cup!

    
    Why? Is there now a rule which states that away goals count double
    for Div 1 bound teams in the event of a Semi-final replay? 

    
    Tonny,
    
    	I saw the "incident" on Sky News last night. The TV clearly shows
    the Munich forward missing an open goal and then joking with the keeper
    about it. Then his team mates run up to congratulate him when the
    referee awards the goal. To be fair to the referee, he was unsighted
    and relied on his lines man, who is clearly blind as a bat. In the news
    item, they mentioned that the German FA would meet today to decide if
    the match should be replayed. Apparently the Munich player was
    interviewed directly after the game and insisted it was a goal......then
    changed hs mind when they showed him the replay! He should be banned!
    8-)
    
    JBG
    
    Ps Tonny, I'll be rooting for Germany too if they play like they did
    last time around!

Today the German DFB makes the decison of a new game or not.

Heribert

re 370.5

Thank you Dave for your information !
I remember you ! I think I wrote you some mails ;-)

re 370.6

Heribert,
I think BAYER and Nurenberg must play  again, because the result is 2-1 (the 
differenciate is 1).
Would you inform me if they repeat the game ?


re 370.11

JBG (May I know what does JBG mean)
Thank you for your information too ;-)
I guess BERN01 in Austria (am I right ?)
What do you think about INTER - SALZBURG match in the final UEFA ?
  
   
Tonny

    
    Tonny,
    
    	firstly BERN01 is in Bern, the capital of Switzerland, so no, you
    guessed wrong. Close, but wrong. 8-)
    
    	I don't think much about the Inter-Salzburg UEFA final.....ok, to
    be honest I haven't thought about it at all until now. Hoping for
    Arsenal to take the CWC though!
    
    	JBG stands for (among other things) Jon B Goode.
    
    JBG
    
    Ps. I hope the match is replyed and the Munich striker ought to be
    disciplined for cheating.

Tonny,

Bern is in the lovely suisse, I think I am the only Austrian in this
conference.
Salzburg - Inter: I have set all facts in the conference 310.

Heribert (Vienna)

   JBG.. Don't believe everything the SKY will tell you.. Thomas Helmer the
Bayern player involved in the incident, thought it was a goal but naturally 
enough changed his mind when he saw the replay on TV. Now that's not really
cheating, after all the ref makes the final decision. 

   I personally can't see the match been replayed, because the eyes of FIFA are
looking at the DFB. If the match is replayed then Bayern will recall all their
German Internationals from Saudi Arabia where they were due to play a friendly
tomorrow night. N�rnbergs only German International their goalkeeper K�pke will
not be called back because he's due to play in goal, and V�gts hasn't made a 
final decision regarding the starting keeper in the states.

                                          

                                                             -dave-

    
    Dave,
    
    	If I'd been that striker (quite likely I would have missed too!),
    I would have told the referee that the ball didn't cross the line. Lets
    face it, the ball went no where near the line. Thats the trouble with
    football, and sport in general, today....there are too few sportsmen
    left.
    	As far as replaying the match goes, if what Heribert & Tonny say is
    true, ie. the DFB have a rule allowing for replays if a descision was
    wrong and it clearly affected the outcome, then so far as I can see
    they must replay - the TV evidence is too clear to be ignored.

    
    
    This happened to me on Sunday.
    
    This fella scored and was offside by a bus ride. The ref gave the goal.
    I cried Offside ya bas***d,  Oi ref the blokes so far up the pitch even
    our keeper is in front of him.....
    
    The scorer was laughing all the way back to his half and repeatedly
    said- " I was offside " 
    
    Would he tell the referee ??. Would the referee go and ask him ??.
    
    Would he hellaslike.
    
    where have all the gentleman gone ?.
    
    
    Gazzer

    
Hi Jon, Heribert,

I made a mistake like the refree did in MUNCHEN - NURENBERG match ;-)

Sorry if I said BERN01 in Austria :-(
It should be BERN (Switzerland) and Vienna (we called WINA, Austria)
Thank you for your correction !
It is just a test for you ;-) And both of you pass the test ;-)
    
BTW,
I read in newspaper this morning that DFB made a polling and 91 % want 
Munchen and Nurenberg play again. 89 % from that are Bayern Munchen fans ;-)

If DFB agree the match will be held on May 4th 1994.

Is it true ?


regards

Tonny

The DFB has decided yesterday, that the match will be repeated on 4.May.
There is no protest from Bayern Munich, only from the Freiburger FC (fear of
descending).

Heribert

    Finally seen the incident last night.
    
    Although the linesman flagged, he would anyway for the ball crossing
    the line, it's the ref that gave the goal. 100% to blame. How can he
    say it's a goal when the ball is trundling along the advertising
    boards.......8*).
    
    colin.

    
    Did anyone see SKY News last night? They were featuring the DFB
    decision to replay the game and they interviewed a "top english
    referee" who repeatedly stated that, in his opinion....
    
    this sets a very bad precident
    referees are right 90% of the time and on balance it evens out...
    this decision is very bad for football
    TV cameras should not be used to monitor referee's decisions
    blah blah blah blah blah...............
    
    JBG 

    
    Quote from GLR Sports News Last Night :
    
    "...it's a good job that this isn't done in England, as Manchester
    United would be playing until July, as everyone knows half of their
    goals have been offside ..."
    
    
    I think this is a ridiculous ruling.
    
    As someone stated earlier, if they have to use Video evidence, then at
    least have a fourth official in the stands reviewing it immediately and
    correcting the error at the time.
    
    Rob

          <<< Note 370.23 by PANIC::ANDERSON "Away Strip By Armani" >>>
               -< ...and Cantona's 1st on Saturday WAS offside >-

    
>    Quote from GLR Sports News Last Night :
    
>    "...it's a good job that this isn't done in England, as Manchester
>    United would be playing until July, as everyone knows half of their
>    goals have been offside ..."
    
     Fair point, Rob.

     STuart

    
   i agree, that this game should not be repeated for some reasons:
    
    - i'm sure, that bayern munich will win the second game against 
      N�rnberg with more than 1 goal diffrence. Ans so it is possible, that
    bayern will win the german championship only because of this 
    higher difference. Now, bayern is 1 goal after Kaiserslautern.
    And even N�rnebrg could descend because it will loose the second game
    with 1:4 (my prediction).
    
    - What is a goal and what not ?? There are so  many mistakes by the
    referres.....
    
    
    Christian 
    

	Referees will always make mistakes. That is the great thing about 
football that we can talk down the pub, and in Notes about how we 'wuz 
robbed'. Officials always have been, are, and always will be predominantly 
old, blind, and stupid..and that is why football is such a brilliant game.

	The decision is a stupid one. The right decision would have been to 
send the officials to the opticians...I mean it was so blatantly obvious even 
with a constricted view.

Andy.
	

    OK, so we're only human....
    
    The official rule is that a ref can (and should) reverse his decision
    after he examines the facts.  HOWEVER, any reversal MUST be made prior
    to restating play.
    
    For example, a ref signaled a goal.  I was a linesman and stood my
    ground with my flag straight up (instead of running towards midfield if
    a goal had been scored).  As the attacking team was celebrating, the
    ref came over to me and I explained that the ball hadn't crossed the
    line -- something I was better able to see from the side.  BEFORE he
    let the other team kickoff, he reversed his decision.  If he had let
    the kickoff occur, not change could have been made later on.
    
    On minor things, I always go with the flow -- i.e. I call throw a
    throw in for blue, and a blue player says it was off him, so I change
    my call.  I've never had a player say "I didn't score" or a "I was 
    offsides".
    
    Now, for you "experts" out there, how should the ref restart play in the
    above example after disallowing the goal, given that he blew the whistle 
    while the goalie had the ball in his hands!
    
    
    Regards,
    			Jeff

        Jeff,

    I'll be first to get it wrong. I'd do the following in an amateur
    league but would probably expect the number 2 decision in a
    proffessional league (I know there should be no difference but that's
    the way it goes)
    
    1 Assuming that the game was going ok with no major problems before:
    I'D tell the captain of the attacking team (and also defending team)
    what I was going to do, and explain that I'd take no dissent. Then I'd
    give an indirect free kick to the defending team from where the goalie
    had the ball at stop of play. This would be the justice done approach.
    
    2 I suppose that the "correct" decision is to give a drop ball at the
    point of the ball when play was stopped.

    Peter.

    
    Guess: a drop ball on the half way line? (given that a drop-ball on the
    goal line would be a bit unfair!).
    
    Jeff, while you're about..... suppose a goalie throws out a long ball and
    the wind carries it to the other end where the opposing keeper misses
    it and it goes in, ie. no one touches the ball in flight, does the goal
    stand??
    
    JBG

    Jeff,
    
    I think the answer depends on the circumstances of how the keeper got
    the ball. 
    
    If the dispute was around him catching it 'on' the line and
    he still has the ball then he's in possession and should have the old 4
    steps from the goal line.
    
    If a defender perhaps cleared it off the line to the goal keeper who
    then picked it up then its handball - penalty !
    
    Cheers,
    
    Andy                                 

    RE: .27
    Jeff,  The proper restart is a drop ball.  Make sure your goalside on the
    drop ball and cover your "family jewels" when you do -- 'cuz you know
    that attacking player is going to shoot directly at the goal! 
    
    RE: .29
    
    Now the implausible -- if the keeper throws the ball from within his
    penalty area all the way down field into his opponents goal does it
    count??  The answer is yes.  The keeper, and Diego Maradonna, are the
    only people allowed to score a goal with the use of their arms :^)
    
    Rgds Rich

      Re: .30
    
    
    >>If a defender perhaps cleared it off the line to the goal keeper 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>who then picked it up then its handball - penalty !
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^                     ^^^^^^^

      Am i reading this right ?? If i am then.....
    
      Ermmmmmmmmmm.......No ??

    I think Jeff's question centered on several important points:
    	1) The referee had blown his whistle(stopped play) 
    	2) The keeper is holding the ball at the moment the whistle was
           blown.
    	3) (Assumption here) it was a shot on goal.
    
    If it was an inadvertent whistle -- that's politically correct language
    for a screw-up by the ref -- then the only proper restart is a
    dropball.
    
    Now let's talk about how do you manage this awkward restart situation.
    I'd use 2 techniques
    1) If the attackers aren't paying attention I'd simply walk to the spot
       make eye contact with a defender or keeper and drop the ball.  The 
       attentive defenders will appreciate the opportunity to get the game 
       restarted quickly.  The attackers may want to kill me but I've got to
       take it -- I'm the one that screwed up.  By the way it doesn't say
       anywhere in the Laws of the Game that two players have to square off
       and take a drop ball.
    2) If the attackers are paying attention and they know it's a dropball
       situation close to the goal area, I'd place myself goalside, cover my
       family jewels, and then drop the ball.  I don't want the attackers
       to get a clear shot at goal because of my mistake.
    
    Anybody have any other creative methods??  
    

    
    
      Probably not the right note, but it's on the same subject.
    
     Last year, during a Scottish Premier League match between Partick
    Thistle and Dundee United, the following happened :-
    
     United forward shoots for goal, ball enters the net, hits the
    stanchion at the back of the goal and comes back into play. Neither
    referee nor linesman gives a goal. To make matters worse, a Partick
    defender, obviously knowing his team have conceded a goal, picks the
    ball up and hands it to the goalkeeper. He kicks it in the general
    direction of the centre-circle for the game to re-start, the referee
    however decides that there was no goal and no handball by the defender,
    therefore no penalty. He just waves play on as if nothing happen.
    
      Danny.
    
    ps the aforementioned referee will be Scotland's representative in the
      WC finals in the U.S.A!!!!

    RE: -1
    
    Perhaps the referee and linesman view of the play involving the keeper
    putting the ball into play after a "fine pass" from his teamate was
    obstructed as well ;^)
    

    Yup, as unfair as it seems, a drop ball is the "official" call.
    The place is where the ball was when I blew the whistle, except it can
    be no closer than the goal box.
    
    However, I have done what .28 suggests, i.e. give an indirect kick.  In
    fact, I once whistled and gave a yellow card to a player just before
    the keeper kicked the ball out.  In that case I let the restart be the
    keeper punting the ball (Oh my!! did I not follow the book!!).  In that
    case, the yellow was to the other team, so they were a bit too gun shy
    to complain! (The yellow was for unsportsman like conduct, the coach's son
    had kicked at the ball 2 seconds AFTER the keeper had it securely in his
    hands.)
    
    Regards,
    					Jeff
    
    P.S.  I believe that the keeper can score a goal by throwing the ball
    out of his area.

Re. -.1

Jeff,

You should have waited on the card for the player if
you indeed booked him for ungentlemanly play. That is
to say let the play go on until there is a natural stop-
age....then hold up play and book the player. Change 
your call to an illegal charge on the keeper, dangerous
play or the infamous mystery call .. then book that 
player right away and its a kick to the keeper (off of
the ground). The other one I hate is when a player has
been injured, is in obvious need of attention and the
keeper is holding the ball in the box....stop play and
you have a drop ball in the box...sort of unfair. Most
referees will tell the keeper to punt the damn ball out
and then blow it dead up near midfield...

Jerry

    re .37
    
    Nice point.  I guess I could have blown the whistle as a dangerous
    charge (it was), given a yellow, and a direct kick as restart.  The only
    reason NOT to wait to give the yellow is that noone in the USA would
    understand such a thing (i.e. delayed card)!  I like to give immediate
    feedback.
    
    Thanks for your thoughts.
    
    					Jeff

    Jeff based upon your description in .36 you stopped play to caution an
    attacker for kicking the ball after the keeper had possession for 
    "...2 seconds..".  You **absolutely did the right thing** to stop play 
    immediately for that type of infraction! 
    
    "Ungentlemanly Conduct" is a broad term covering a variety of
    infractions, some significant, some less so.  Kicking a ball while
    the keeper had the ball is on the significant side!  So, if you were
    to wait for a natural stoppage in play, as Note .37 suggested, that 
    stoppage would be caused by a defender punching the S**T out of the 
    attacker for endangering his/her keeper.  Players are VERY protective
    of their keepers!!   If referees want to avoid game control problems,
    protect the keeper.
    
    With respect to your comments in .38  "...no one in the USA would
    understand such a thing (i.e. delayed card)"  I'll have to disagree 
    with you on that point Jeff.  There are people who do recognize such
    a thing, and there are those individuals who do not.  The bottom line
    for us as referees should be; does the player understand why they're
    receiving a caution?  Not, does Joe Blow spectator know?
    
    Rich

        re .39

    Rich,

    	Thanks for your thoughts.  I agree that the spectators are NOT my
    concern.  However, I do like to ref a match whereby my signals (verbal,
    hand, or otherwise) help everyone understand the game a bit better. 
    (Many parents come over after a match to thank me for making it easier
    for them to figure out what's going on.  I know it is not my job, but
    with many new parents/kids to the game in the US, I do feel that I'm a bit 
    of a goodwill ambassador)

    	The real key to your reply is "..does the player know that
    they've done something wrong."  My wife, the teacher, says that the
    longer you delay in feedback, the less impact it has!  I whistled that
    yellow card before the player even got his foot down!  There was no
    question in his (or his father the coach) mind why I stopped play.  At
    the young levels I typically ref (ages 10 to 14), I dislike delaying my
    calls.

    	As an aside, I think you get better overall control over a match if
    you blow fast whistles for big, obvious fouls.  It lets everyone on and
    off the pitch know that you intend to stop that stuff right away.  
    
    					Jeff

    
    One year on from the last reply in this topic, I have a related
    question to ask...
    
    My team has had a bad season (won 2, lost the rest!), and yesterday's
    last game was going well, we had scored first, were 2-1 down at
    half-time, and then equalised.  Approaching the end of the game, and
    everyone is playing at 120%, we think we can get a draw (true they had
    many more attacks than us).  I was one on one (I'm the sweeper) with
    their center forward, the ball having been punted upfield, I trapped
    the ball with my left foot, whilst going backwards, and was about to
    clear it (anywhere!), however, the attacker had hold of my arm, and
    spun me out of the way, collected the ball, and proceeded to beat the
    keeper.
    
    Of course I complained like fury to the ref. - trying to get myself
    booked :-) - but he didn't change his decision (of course).  But what
    really upset me was his comment as he ran back to the halfway line "Yes
    I saw it [the foul]".
    
    Surely this sort of refereeing is criminal, and against rules and
    regulations, or not?
    
    Comments, anything, please chear me up!
    
    Ian

    
    Hi Ian,
    
    	yes, this sort of refereeing is criminal. If he really admitted to
    not just seeing the incident but also agreed that it was a foul (he may
    have though you were both pulling / pushing each other) then you're
    best course is to send a letter to the appropriate FA. Its unlikely to
    help your cause but the ref might get disciplined (some hope). You
    missed out on your best chance, ie. kick the hell out of the foward as
    he's hanging onto your arm.......you'd almost certainly have got
    yourself sent off then.
    
    JBG

      
    
    This kind of thing happens all the time in Scotland,the referee,s are
    a joke,especially when rangers are playing,they seem to get a lot of
    decisions their way....I dont know why ?? 8-)))

    
    Quigs,
    I thought you being a celtic man would know the answer to this.
    
    It's because all referees are Masons.(Ay Mr.Doudie.) ;>)

Note 370.44                    Illegal goal!!!!!!                       44 of 44
MASALA::ISUTHERLAND "Same Sh*t...I'm a Hun."          5 lines  23-MAY-1995 08:05
     -< ...and this dubious,last minute penalty,could win the cup for Ai >-
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Since when was a dubious penalty classed as an illegal goal ?? Your
    mentality never fails to amaze me.
    
    >> It's because all referees are Masons.(Ay Mr.Doudie.) ;>)
    
       Show me the note where I refer to 'all referees' as masons. Stick to
    facts not accusations. I think Kilmarnock have a bigger beef with you lot 
    considering they never reached the Cup Final because of a 'dubious goal'.
    
    

    
    re-1
    
    Wasn't the last trophy won by Celtic the product of a dubious goal..??

    
    Re: -2
    
    You don't half take things literally do you Colin.
    
    Where did i say that a dubious penalty was an illegal goal ?
    Now knowing you've had all your humour removed by micro-surgery.I'll
    explain.
    I meant it to infer that whichever "Masonic" referee is in charge on
    Saturday,he'd do his utmost to ensure that the Masonic conspiracy
    against yous,continued for at least another season.
    
    Got it now!!! Good!!

    Re: -2 
    
    Since we're being picky, was it not a dubious 'throw in' that led to a
    perfectly legal goal ??????
    
    Watch it again if you like......... 
    
    Re: -1
    
    Literally........you did mention me by name so you got the contemptuous
    reply you deserve. 
    
    So, to stop myself being 'edited out' from notes all further
    discussions with anyone on these subjects will be held face to face.