Conference thebay::joyoflex

    but what is the big box ?
    
    should anti-goals sit astride non-goals and external to the big
    box ?
    
    Mark
    
    p.s. Boythis takes me back to my school days 8-)
    

    I only see GOALS and non-GOALS.  If some event is not desired and
    is deliberatly avoided, then I would call that a GOAL.  The goal
    is to avoid that undesireed thing or event.  
    
    Example:  When you were in school, your goal was to get an A in
              a course.  Well, included in that goal was the goal of
              passing and hence NOT failing.  I wouldn't call failing
              the course an anti-goal; I would call passing the course
              a GOAL.  Also included in the GOAL of getting an A was
              the goal of NOT getting a B or a C.  I wouldn't call getting
              a B or a C an anti-goal.
    
    

    I only see GOALS ... anything else is irrelevant.
    
    An anti-goal are only an inversion of a GOAL.
    
    For example ... If getting a C or lower grade is an anti-goal then
                    the real GOAL is "NOT (getting a C or lower)".

Non-goal has become a buzzword, but I think that there really is such a 
concept.  A non-goal is a result that many people will perceive as a goal, but 
is not.  For example, getting if getting a C is a goal, but getting a better 
grade than Joe Dokes may be a non-goal.

I think that "success" and "failure" or "indication of success" and 
"indication of failure" may be better nomenclature than "goal", "non-goal" and 
"anti-goal".

BTW, in the base note, I assume that "Anit-gaol" is a typo.  Or did you mean 
staying out of jail?

Clay

    How about goals and own-goals?
    
    About the venn diagram, I would say that goals and non-goals are
    two distinct sets, like:
    
     +------------------------------------------------+
     |          Results                               |
     |   +-----------+   +-------------------------+  |
     |   | Goals     |   |  Non-goals              |  |
     |   |           |   |                         |  |
     |   |           |   +--------------+          |  |
     |   +-----------+   |  Anti-goals  |          |  |
     |                   +--------------+----------+  |
     +------------------------------------------------+
    
    Ian.

    
    There are only goals .
    
    Goals are a target for achievement . You cannot have a 'negative'
    achievement , as they become mutually exclusive . 
    
    You can have 'standards' of goals , and these are 'low' or 'high'
    or whatever , but you cannot have the opposite to a goal .
                          
    At best , non-goals and anti-goals , are simply negative ways of
    defining your true goal .
    
    John J
    
    

    How about this:
    
    
    +-------------------------------------------+
    |					     	|
    |           Outcomes or results		|
    |   +---------+  +----------+  +----------+	|
    |   | Positive|  | Negative |  | Neutral  |	|
    |   | +------+|  | +------+ |  | (non-    | |
    |   | |goals ||  | | anti-| |  |  goals)  | |
    |   | +------+|  | |goals | |  |          | |
    |   |         |  | +------+ |  |          | |
    |   +---------+  +----------+  +----------+ |
    |						|
    +-------------------------------------------+
    
    The idea being that any eventuality relating to action is classed
    here as an outcome or result.  
    
    A subset of all possible outcomes is positive outcomes (including 
    accidental ones) and a subset of all possible positive outcomes is 
    goals, or completion of goals.
    
    Another subset of of all possible outcomes is negative results
    including the things specifically to be avoided, here called
    "anti-goals" as a subset.  (This also assumes accidental negative
    results that weren't specifically to be avoided.)  
    
    Finally, a subset of all possible outcomes includes neutral outcomes
    or non-goals. Perhaps there are outcomes that are unrelated to the
    concept of goals completely and non-goals should be another subset of 
    the subset,but I gave up!
    
    I think there is validity in the concept of anti-goal, and maybe
    a good dictionary of antonyms would offer ideas, but I can't find
    one here at the moment.  The goal may be *avoiding* the anti-goal,
    but the idea is still there.
    
    Sherry

    But outcomes are a result of striving for a goal.  They are not
    goals themselves.  This is, I think, where this discussion is off
    track.
    
    A goal is desired predicted state, but is not the state itself.

     pitfall

When working on Service Delivery Kits for SWAS Service Engineering, I came
across "Goals" and "Non-Goals", and (where necessary) changed them to
"Objectives" and "Service Limits" because they described things that the
service was, and was not, intended to cover.  Alternatively, I could have
included both topics under a single heading such as "Service Scope", so it
really depends on the context.

GT

    How about considering an anti-goal something analgous to
    anti-matter?  That is, just as matter and anti-matter
    cancel out, so do goals and anti-goals.
    
    When matter and anti-matter collide there's a tremendous
    release of energy.
    
    If we assume that a goal is something desired by product
    management, then an anti-goal would make it impossible
    to reach that goal, and there would be a tremendous cry
    by product management, analgous to the matter/anti-matter
    energy release.
    
    Or is that stretching things a tad?

     re .9
     
>>                                  -< how about ... >-
>>   pitfall
     
     My DEC offcie edition of the AHD gives
     
     pitfall n. 1. ...
                2. Any danger or difficulty not anticipated.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
     Anti-goals are anticipated.
     
     Dan

    	Websters allows the danger to be anticipated but not easily
    seen. Personaly I like pitfall; anti-goal is an abomination!
    
    	Ian G.
    

    Does that mean if there's a ditch across your path, and you see
    the ditch and try to jump, or fly, over it, but fall into it
    anyway, it wasn't a pitfall? 
    
    Was the ditch the anti-goal, or the act of falling into it?
    
    --bonnie

    I suppose it's like the elephant trap after which it may have been
    named; the elephant knows they're out there, but it's still hard to avoid
    falling into them. Nevertheless, this elephant knows all about elephant
    traps.
    
    There's still the other class of things, perhaps infinitely big*,
    that the elephant doesn't know about and that it must avoid.
    
    *(I don't mean big like elephant traps, I mean big like lots of
    them**).
         
    **(These things to be avided, I mean, not Elephants***).
                                                          
    ***(Unless other elephants are to be included among things to be
    avoided).
    
    As you can see, Grammar comes loaded with a whole bunch of anti-goals
    which, with hindsight, I can call pitfalls.
    
    Richard.
    
    

    John J

    RE .16
    >                  -< reading that last note was an anti-goal >-
    
                                                                   
    
     ..like falling into the pit was an elephant?
    
    Richard.                                                    
    

     What started this last digression?
     
     What in the world does the word "pitfall" have to do with
     falling into pits?
     
     Dan

    Re: .19
    
    Right.
    
    "Rainfall" has to do with falling rain. Therefore "pitfall" has to do
    with falling pits. Since a "hole in the ground" is more likely to rise
    than fall, entropy being what it is, I assume that a pit is the seed of
    some fruit. Then if you had a Sagan (10**9's) of them, a pitfall might
    be quite spectacular and perhaps dangerous. 

    If we're going to have anti-goals in our specs, does that imply
    the need for a new software engineering position -- 
    
    
    
    the goalie?
    
    --bonnie

    In opposition to the point of view that there are only goals,
    let me suggest that there are various philosophical searchers
    looking for the (an?) ultimate goal.  Perhaps they are
    currently satisfying a "meta-goal" -- searching for the as
    yet unknown goal!  ;-)

    re .21
    
    You know that US Presidents have the FBI to guard them, the Queen
    has Scotland Yard, the Canadian prime monster has the Mounties ...
    so who did the late president of France, de Gaule have ???
    
    How about de Gaule keeper ?

    re .23:
    
    He also had an aged relative locked in the closet: Aunty de Gaule.  
    
    Richard.

  I like to read the books of Gogol, and some other ones (non-Gogol).
    
    	roger

    Then of course, in trigonometry there is the ang(o)le and the
    anti-angle.
    
    (since this seems to be becoming a punning match)

    I thought Antiangle was a heroine in a Greek tragedy.
    
    --bonnie

    Right. And Antigone is that joyous time when your mother's sister
    finally leaves. 

    Antigone?  Isn't she Antidote's sister?  You know, the one who
    brings you all the nice presents and takes you out to dinner at
    your favorite restaurant and all that?
    
    --bonnie

    The husband is into anti-matter (he's a garbage collector)

    And we can't forget Anticlimax, who gives good -- oh, never mind.

    If Anticlimax goes professional, is she paid with antimony?
    
    

    Antimony when she's working, alimony when she splits, and
    antihis-ta-mine when they do it with their toes.

    then of course there is the wrestler of the family - AntiBody

     there are never enough puns - uncle isn't in my vocabulary
    

    No doubt we will be pun-ished by exile to the Anti-podes.

    G'day,
    
    Now what's wrong with the antipodes??? Here we stand, hanging on
    by our toes and why? Its not a Pun-ishment, it's a dangling participle.
    or is that an insubordinate clause ( a relative of santa clause)?
    
    Anyway, hope your day goes with a s(i)mile. Have you ever written
    a real phor? or do you anly deal in metaphors?
    
    derek
    
     

    And here we stand on our poor aching feet ... at least you get to
    take the weight of yours!  

    Of course, these people have a house full of anterooms...
    and those Down Under can't be insubordinate clauses, since those
    are Santa's unruly children.
    
    >Mark
    maybe the titles belong in WAF...

    If metadata is stored in the Common Data Dictionary, 
    are metaphors stored in the Phorsaurus?
    
    --bonnie

    I dunno, but will Roget meta you by the photocopier ?

     re .39
     
>>    or do you anly deal in metaphors?
                ^^^^
     
     Dan

    anally ==> anly, drop two letters
    only  ==>  anly, change one letter
    
    Occam's Razor says take the simpler choice.

    'day,
    
    
    Fancy that !  Me !! Making a typo! Mee! No! Not Me! What a bummer!
    
    
    
    djw
    

    re: .45
    
    What's the name of the rhetorical or logical technique which
    says that instead of the simplest explanation, you take the
    one that makes the best pun?
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    Diarhoea?
    
    Richard

    re: .47
    
    	   Occam's yo-yo.
    

    re: .47 The Vatican in its wisdom issues statements and position
    papers on varius topics. In one such, "Mater et magistra", this
    process is identified. While it is called many things, it is best
    known as 
    
    puntification.
    
    jc ( with :-) for people that might have trouble with Common Sense.)
    

    Why is it that there are always papal bulls but never any papal
    steers or papal cows?  Or papal calves, for that matter?  Do they
    spring full-grown from the head of the pope?
    
    --bonnie

    Re .51 (Bonnie):
    
    ... But there are papal steers.  That's when JP II takes the wheel
    of the Popemobile.
    
    Also, like other human beings, there are papal calves.  Likewise
    papal wrists, papal brows, papal feet ...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
                               The Papal Cow
    
                          I never saw a papal cow;
                          I never hope to see opne.
                          But I can tell you anyhow,
                          I'd rather see than be one!

    A papal cow is what the Pope does when he gets reprimanded by his
    boss.
    
    Clay

     Whenever a new Pope is intronised, there's an
     examination of the popal balls.
    
      roger    

    If the pope wanted to eat red meat while the college of cardinals
    wanted to go vegetarian, would that be a papal beef?
    
    --bonnie

    And when the pope wants a snack, he goes to the microwave and
    zaps some pope corn. 
    
    -bruce    
                         

    Isn't there a game that college of Cardinals (team colors: purple
    and white) play called papalball?  Every time there is a goal
    scored, white smoke is issued.

    and when the pope writes a decree does he ask for pen and papal?

    Re .58:
    
    No, he sends a guided missal.

    and is his adversary the antichrist or the nonchrist?
    
    

    re: .59
    
    I'm still laughing . . . 
    
    

    And after all that writing, he has sore hands, diagnosed as papal
    tunnel syndrome ?

    It all sounds like a bunch of papal bull to me.
    

    This is what comes of not defining your goals!

    Oh no, wrong note again! 8^}

Does the pope wear papal reeboks ?
    

    And when he wears his electric insulated vestments, do they call
    the outfit his purple papal heater?
    
    

    I don't know if I can even come close to the last one .... but what
    is the favourite papal snack ? Popecorn of course!
    
    (still laughing at the thought of .69!)
    

    And if he eats too much of that popecorn he'll end up with fatted
    calves.   Isn't this where we started?
    
    Dondi  (I'm still laughing at .69 too! Imagine the investment)

    So now we're into the parable of the popdigal son are we ?

    And he sits under the pawpaw tree with his papa, eating papaya on
    paper plates, seasoned with paprika (the papaya, not the paper plates.)
                                                                           
    Isn't this note a lot of pap?                                          
                                                                           
    Bruce

    Do you suppose his vestments are made of popelin?

    And when in storage, he puts some pot pourri in the drawer to keep
    away the moths!

And what about the local Vatican software company, Halo Software Inc., with
their special feature: pope-up menus? Don't laugh: in Rome, you will get a
Capitol punishment for it!

Arie

    I hear they're planning to relandscape the courtyard at the
    Vatican this summer. 
    
    I believe the new design will center around popelar trees.
    
    --bonnie

    That's right, to provide some shade in those hot Vatican summers,
    so he can sit outside and take cooling refreshment with a popesicle.
    
    (Interesting turn this note took considering the name of the author
    of the base note)
    
    stuart

     And the ever present press spies on the Pope with their
     poper scopers.
     
     Dan

    Yes, he must beware not to expopse himself !
    

    They'll do his life strory on film, shot in CinemaPope.  

    the puns are getting thinner and thinner ....
       maybe we should dispopse of this topic. 
    

>       maybe we should dispopse of this topic. 
                                         ^^^^^

You mean "popic"?   

    yeah, but then it's only a matter of (p)opinion

    
    Did you know that when the pope programs, the language of
    choice is not BASIC nor Pascal nor Bliss?
    It is 
    
    Holy See
    
    jc

    and when he brushes his pearly whites, he uses popesedent.

    And for breakfast he eats popeovers.

    re: .91
    
    I though he ate pope-up toaster pastries.
    
    --bonnie

    Frodo's mother used that line, too -- "Frodo, go sit in the
    corner. You've been a bad hobbit!" 
    
    --bonnie

    Abbot almost anything these bad puns will make us take a vow of
    silence!

    I think this whole note has become dispopeable.
    
    Doesn't anybody have any work to do today?
    
    --bonnie

I just pope in and out to see what's new!

    Likewise ...
    
    Did you hear that they were rewriting one of Elgar's Pope &
    Circumstance marches as an anthem for the Vatican ...
    
    "Land of Pope and Glory ..."

    We appear to have started a new popeulist movement.
    
    --bonnie 

    
    Pope pouri?
    
    In any case, when Tom Lehrer sent the pope a used sport jacket,
    they both referred to it as the 
    
    Vatican Rag 
    
    genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
    jc
    

    I suppose that the Popesi-Cola came in a Pope-top can?
    
    len.
    

>    < Note 587.100 by CSSE::CIUFFINI "God must be a Gemini..." >
>    
>    Pope pouri?

Sorry used already ....
    
    btw
    
    Anybody care to speculate on the popeulation of the Vatican ?
        

    re .101

    Sorry, but one good pun-tiff deserves another!
    

You still remember the French group "Les Popies"?

    	Can't a poor moderator get a bit of peace??  I go on holiday for a
    day, and come back to find an organised attack on ....  Words fail me.
    You realise this notes file is located only a couple of hundred miles
    from the Vatican!  Even now secret agents may be heading here to shoot
    holes in me and the notes file.
    
    	I haven't had any complaints so far, but maybe we could include the
    Dalai Lama and the Archbishop of Canterbury just to keep a reasonable
    balance.

    We were going to get to the Lama, but we've just been dalai'ing
    around.
    

    
    re: the hygiene theme....
    
    When the pope showers, of course he uses...
    
    
    
    pope on a rope       :-)
    

    re: .107
    
    Presumably the Pope on a rope puts soap on a Pope ...?
    
    Mat.
    0 *:o)        <---- Note the special halo just for this note.

    re: .105
    
    I understand that the Lama normally eats lunch at a nearby
    dalaicatessen.
    
    --bonnie

    re: .109
    
    And the Lama must eat peanut buddha sandwiches, yes?
    
    Dondi

    Anything he wants, he's an om*nivore

    If the Lama and the Pope ever get together to watch TV, will
    they snack on hot buddhad popecorn?
    
    --bonnie

Re: .114

I hope so, Bonnie. The LLama just lloves popecorn.

Opps! Sorry! Wrong Lama!

Bruce

The lama loves soccer. The last time he played, he buddahed in 3 goals.

Bruce

    If the Lama eats too much buddahed popecorn, he'll die, and the
    Archbishop can't bury him. Wrong religion.

    Let's forget about Lamas for a second, I have a Tibet of information
    on the Pope.  He just caught eating a tart this morning. A Pope-Tart.
    I guess the little tart will cause a Popes Smear.  That should put
    him to the test.

    re: .118  ( -< Can of Worms >- )
                        
    It's not a can of worms -- it's a Diet of Wurms! 
    Don't smear the pope like that!
    
    -bs
    

    Caught him dalai-ing around, eh?
    
    --bonnie

    I dao-t he'd have the lack of pope-riety to get caught in the act...
    
    Now zen, back to the topic at hand (no, not the holy hand grenade...)
    
    -Jody
    

    Now if the Pope and the Dalai Lama decided to join their religious
    headquarters, do you think they might name it the Popetala?
    
    Dondi

These Lama Puns are getting a little shaggy.

Time to shear them,  buy the way I could use an Angst-gora sweater,

Lavendar Blue, Dalai, Dalai

    If the Dalai has to leave town suddenly after the little slip-up
    described in earlier notes, will he be on the Lama?

    Since the moderator wants this note to take on
    a nwe Angl I can oblige.
    
    Re burying, I think the archbishop tried to Bury St Edmunds
    

    Isn't that a football cheer?  You know, "Go, Go, Nashua! Bury St.
    Edmunds!"
    
    --bonnie

    I suppose the Archbishop of Canterbury, Runcie might agree ... he
    plays football (oops soccer to you!)
    
    But then 'e just cant 'er bury !
    
    (St Edmunds just took female gender!)

    I hear tell there's a rather flaky minister around here who's been
    going around to all the fast-food joints and preaching to the
    kids. He's had the best luck at McDonald's so they've started
    calling him the Golden Arch Bishop.
    
    --bonnie

        Was he practicing what he priests?
 
        jc

    There's a chain of fried chicken places in the South that are
    unquestionably awaiting the arrival of the Pope with great
    eagerness.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    Thank god that no one has mentioned the fact that the pope is
    considerd the shepard of the flock.... ( Imagine what kind of
    puns that would elicit!)
    
    ? Do cardinals flock to the Vatcian or do they flock to Fhoenix?

    There was a young lad who was found reading IWADSN ....
    
    He was sitting muttering obviously driven out of his mind.
    
    His mother entered the room to see her ghostly son and said
    
    "These epics so pale Ian"

     
   
     There were some shrewd noters from DEC
     Whose puns made the poor pope a wreck.
         They stayed up half the night
         Writing rhymes out of sight
     I just love it! By cracky, by heck!

    The Pope heard that DEC played quite free
    With his name and religion, so he
    Forced them all to retract
    So they were, in fact
    Denoted by Papal Decree!
    
    

    Said the Pope, "I take care of my flock,
    But these jokes I don't think are a crock.
       You have no Papal Decree
       To desecrate me
    So just stop or I'll knock off your block!"
    

    Said the noters "We
    don't mean to make fun of thee,
    Just of the words
    we wash at Lourdes,
    and just have some fun, join we!"
    

    Limericks are an art complex,
    Especially those in Joy of LEX,
    	With llamas and Popery,
    	Verbal skulduggery,
    And other linguistic effects.

    G'day
    
    There I was cur�-ing some beef, when I vergered on using some bull.
    I  muttered Sa-priest-i! For I was surely had a surplice of food.
    Enough, indeed, to feed five. In walked blind Pew. He hassocked
    me, so I hit him in the apse. Aisle altar hymn, I thought. Not
    dalai-ing, I mustafa some mullahed wine, I thought. So I went to
    the see the wine chap. E'll have some fine wine, I mused. 
    
    I was to be disappointed. It'd be a chancery that I'd get some at
    the the other shop. I ran fast, but collided with a penguin. That's
    rector, I said. how much damage? I asked. Nun, she said. 
    
    Are you good at things? No she said, I'm a novice. But mother is
    superior. As for my father, you should see.
    
    
    Have a Happy Christmas... See you in the new Year.
    
    derek
    

    Sorry to laog out of that poperietary digression.
    
    Re .4
    
BTW, in the base note, I assume that "Anit-gaol" is a typo.  Or did you mean 
staying out of jail?
    
    Nope.  Staying out is "anti-gaol".  "A nit-gaol" is where
    anisthetists want to shove notes like this one.
    
    
    Re .11
    
    Also nope.  The union of matter and anti-matter yields energy,
    but the union of goal and anti-goal yields lethargy.