Conference thebay::joyoflex

    
    I hereby confirm that he *did* indeed say it .
    
    I base this on the belief that author of note 585.0 has nothing
    to gain by telling an untruth .
    
    John J

    From Wilson Follett's "Modern American Usage" (1966):
    
    	"Except in a very few tenacious forms, the subjunctive
    	mood has almost dissappeared from English speech and is
    	retreating, though more slowly, from written prose.
    	The purposes it once served, of expressing doubt, 
    	contigency, or matters contrary to fact, are now taken
   	care of by explicit phrases added to the verb in the
	indicative. [another page and a half not typed in]"

     So if I were to try to use the subjunctive anyway, what
     would I have to do?
     
     Dan

    Let it is!
    

    
    	"Nuclear waste delights."
    
    	"The fear of death lives."
    
    - Greg

    Well, Thanks a lot everybody for the quick replies.
    I remember when I was at school there was a subjunctive,
    and when 'parsing' verbs we used the acronym VP McVint
    to help rememebr everything. Unfortunately, I think the V stands
    for voice, and the T for tense but thats about it.
    Can anybody fill in the rest.
     
    However, I found some of the replies confusing.
    If "get out" is the subjunctive, what is the imperative ?
    My French grammar book states that the subjunctive can be used to
    indicate an order when used in the third person . If an order
    is used in the second then it becomes the imperative.
    Now if we extrapolate the French grammar to English,
    then "Rule subjunctive" is subjunctive, but "get out" is imperative.
     
    Next, why is "the fear of death lives' the subjunctive.
    I would have thought that "he lives" is indicative. Is it because
    there is no object? 
     
    Next, in my original example, (assuming it was correct),
    the subjunctive (understand) was formed differently from the
    indicative (understands). Why therefore does the subjunctive
    of "delight" and "live" have an "s" in the subjunctive,
    whereas "Come winter" and "rule subjunctive" do not?
    Or does it depend on the context?
    
    Yours confusedly,
    jeremy     
      
    

    	You are correct. "May the fear of death live" would be a
    subjunctive without the "s". In the form given it is indicative.

    	I think we need an example from Roger to find out just how green
    frogverbs may be, even if they be in the subjunctive. Most of his
    recent quotations seem to have been in Latin, though...

    Re: .11
    
    Sorry, mode and voice both exist in both French and English.  Indicative,
    imperative, and subjunctive are examples of modes in both languages. 
    Passive and active are examples of voice in both languages.
    
Lew Lasher

    Congratulations to those who study the French subjunctive.
    English is very nice with its little rosbif-verbs but
    people should be encouraged to also learn some real languages :)

    To the point discussed in .13 and .14. 
    
    French verbs vary with mode, tense, person, and number.
    
    There are 6 modes: infinitive, indicative, subjunctive, conditional, 
    imperative, and 'participe' (aka gerundive).
    
    Then there are 3 voices ('formes' or 'voix'): active, passive, and
    pronominal. 
    re .14 There's no subjunctive voice; perhaps you want to give 
    us an example of what you mean.
    
    Then there are 20 tenses - 4 of them under the subjunctive mode.
    
    Well I guess you'll also find this info in any French grammar
    manual ... Also see LUTECE::FRENCH where the subjunctive has been
    discussed sometimes (in French).

    God bless you !
    
	roger

        For the particular benefit of those whose mother tongue is not
        English, I should like to point out that the English for "le mode
        d'un verbe" is "the *mood* of a verb" (not "the mode").

        This is particularly confusing for French people who work in
        computing :-).

	Delia

    G'day
    
    
     Teacher:  "The cows stood in the field. What mood, Johnny/"
    
    
    Johnny  : "Please Miss, The cows!"
    
    djw

    re .14 - "confused *we* English..."
    
    Ahem.
    
    len.
    

    
    I need some help from those of you who know languages other than
    English.  I would like to know what languages have a
    subjunctive mood, and how prevalent its use is in those languages.
    
    For example, I know that English has a subjunctive mood and that it is
    rarely used.  Spanish has a fairly well-developed subjunctive mood,
    and, although I don't speak French, I understand that it too has a
    well-developed subjunctive mood.
    
    How about other languages?  Does the subjunctive mood exist in
    non-Indo-European languages?
    
    I appreciate any help in this matter.
    
    - David
    
    

    
    
    As I recall from my French 101 classes of yesteryear, the subjuntive
    is used very often in literature.  I believe that in everyday speech
    it is not often used.
    
    -Kevin

    I seem to remember that Giscard d'Estaing used to use the subjunctive
    in his presidential speeches to the French people on state television. 
    But this was pretty much an exception. Maybe it is still used if
    the occasion is deemed (or should that be "be deemed"?!) formal.  
                        
    john

    
    I'm more concerned with how many languages have a subjunctive mood
    rather than its frequency of use in those languages that do.
    
    - David
    

    Arabic and German have subjunctives.  They're fairly common in
    spoken German (compared to English), I don't know about how common
    they are in spoken Arabic.
    
    As an ex-linguistics person, I'd guess that more languages have
    a way to mark a phrase as "non-factual" than don't.
    
    				-John Bishop

    �I seem to remember that Giscard d'Estaing used to use the subjunctive
    �in his presidential speeches to the French people on state television. 
    �But this was pretty much an exception. Maybe it is still used if
    �the occasion is deemed (or should that be "be deemed"?!) formal.  
    
    In French it's not formal or exceptional to use the subjunctive. Roger
    - can you copy across your `Soci�t� pour l'Encouragement ...' note
    from FRENCH (forgotten the details, sorry).  I thought it was very
    full and informative.
    
    The subjunctive is alive and well (not just a stilted survival - a
    thriving feature of the language) in - to name languages not yet
    mentioned - Italian, Portuguese and Greek.  No examples from non-
    Indo-European languages, I'm afraid, but I think .-1 must be
    right: most languages have some way of expressing the non-factual.
    
    b
    

    There exist those who would say that English has no subjunctive.
    I could never believe such a thing.
    
    The subjunctive is even applied to some programming languages.
    ANSI soit-il.
    
    And now for one that I wish were a joke, but unfortunately isn't.
    Among the many topics covered in the mandatory English courses of
    Japanese Junior High Schools and High Schools, comes the subjunctive.
    For example, the test question:
    "Give the subjunctive form for the sentence, 'He went to the party.'"
    And its answer:
    "'Would that he had not gone to the party!'"
    And they wonder why the majority of Japanese graduates, after
    learning English for six years, can't even talk with a two-year-old.
    (Fortunately those who understand topics like this don't use them.)