Conference thebay::joyoflex

    It isn't called a "rotary" everywhere in America.  Where I grew
    up it was called a "traffic circle," or sometimes simply a "circle."
    Each was given a name, like "Dupont Circle," "Scott Circle," etc.
    
    Bernie

    
>   			THE LIFT
>
>	This is the "elevator", and perhaps the "escalator" (do they use
>	a different word for each, I don't remember?).

    No, "escalator" = "escalator" (or it did when I grew up there).

    On a side topic, I have a British friend who is a "Brain Drain"
    U.S. aerospace engineer. His group once had the task of designing
    a lift|elevator to carry a stewardess plus food cart between the galley
    and two levels of passenger deck on a special model of the 747.
    As team leader, he decided that they were working on a "lift", and
    his American colleagues decided that to avoid aeronautical confusion,
    they might just as well go along with the word.
    
>			BOOT
>
>	This is the trunk of the car.

    This one has an interesting history in both versions of the language.
    The British version came about because early automobile|car bodies
    were styled on the horse carriages of the day, in which the main
    body -- the passenger-carrying part -- looked like a "D" rolled
    on its back (flat side up). This left a wedge-shaped space at the
    rear, and the practice with the horse carriage (look at the stage
    coach in some old Westerns) had been to fit a large leather receptacle
    into this space. The result was something like a giant's boot, ane
    the name stuck.
    
    The American version came a little later, when the vehicle had acquired
    a more boxy look: a folding luggage grid was fixed to the back of
    the vehicle. Car owners would typically secure a single large trunk
    on this grid, rather than a stack of suitcases. Eventually the automobile
    manufacturers decided to make this a feature, rather than a user-supplied
    option, and again the name stuck.
    
>			ROUND-ABOUT
>
>	This is what we call a rotary here in America.  Same but goes
>	the other way around !


    Two minor comments:
    
    In Britain the word roundabout is also used for the U.S. merry-go-round
    (i.e. the hand-propelled version for children, not a full-blown carrousel)
    and as I recall (and someone will rush to correct me if I am wrong)
    merry-go-round (British) == carrousel (U.S.).
    
    Re "rotary == same but goes the other way around !" -- perhaps it
    should more properly be called a contra-rotary?   ;-)

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re .2
                  Also when I grew up there escalator invariably meant
                  "moving staircase" as opposed to lift which was the
                  closed box.
                                       Max

    A big roundabout with lots of squiggly roads joining it is called
    (in one case I know of) 'a gyratory system'. There's no choice about
    the way you go round it (like the sun, like a card dealer, like
    a bottle of port).

    Where I grew up we didn't allow such inventions of the Devil.  Just
    nice square corners, thank you, with traffic lights as necessary.
    
    --bonnie

US RENT vs British HIRE is interesting. 

In Britain we HIRE everything except houses, which we RENT. Eg hire a car, 
tools, person..., but rent a house.

In the US, you RENT everything, except people, which, like Britain, you HIRE. 

That seemed right when I was living in the US. Only question I had was - do 
you rent or hire a horse?

Martin.

    When in a repentant frame of mind, you can also rent clothes.

    In Montana you hire a horse.
    
    --bonnie

>    In Montana you hire a horse.
    
Do you pay Social Security for it?  Does OSHA get upset of you rent 
a hired horse?
					>>>==>PStJTT

    OSHA doesn't get upset if you hire a horse, or buy a horse, or lease a
    horse, for that matter, as long as you clean up after the horse.
    However, others may become quite upset if you fail to pay for said
    horse in some acceptable manner.  Hemp neckties were designed to deal
    with this situation. 
    
    --bonne

    I think the American distinction is that we HIRE services but RENT
    things (including houses).  I'm sure there may be some exceptions,
    but I'll list some examples:
    
    We HIRE a taxicab or limousine (because it comes with a driver),
    but we RENT a car.
    
    We may HIRE a person to do housecleaning, but we might RENT a
    rug shampooing machine.
    
    We would HIRE a hall if it comes with a catering service, otherwise
    we would probably only RENT the room.
    
    As for HIREing a horse....?  I'd HIRE a livery rig if it came with
    driver, but the horse alone....I guess I'd defer to what the owner
    called the transaction. 

    Attributed to Richard Lederer:  Americans and British are separated by
    a common language.

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  If I'm not mistaken it was Oscar Wilde who first
                  made a statement something like this but it's
                  not surprising that, paraphrased, it has been
                  said by someone else since one of the better
                  known Wilde stories is that after he had come
                  out with one of his aphorisms someone said to
                  him admiringly,"I wish I had said that Oscar."
                  To which he replied, with his characteristic
                  modesty, "Don't worry, dear boy, you will, eventually."
    
    
                                               Max
    
    
                                                      
    

    It was actually the painter Whistler, who said something clever and
    Wilde said to him, "I wish I'd said that." Whistler replied, "You will,
    Oscar, you will." 
    
    	Jon 

    The version I heard has been attributed to Bernard Shaw:
    
    "America and England are two countries divided by a common language."
    
    Bernie

    Having ploughed (sic!) through this I didn't notice anyone clarifying
    "half ten". It always means "half past". I've got a feeling that
    this has become common relatively recently.
    
    I get similar problems in the US with "quarter of", which I always
    have to stop and think about - it's "quarter to" isn't it?

    On the subject of car parts, what is the etymology of 
    'bonnet' for what we Americans call 'hood' (for that
    matter, where did 'hood' come from?)?

    A quick check with the dictionary indicates a relationship between
    'hood' and 'bonnet.'  'Hood' comes from German 'hut' for hat (which
    is what a bonnet is).  Also, both make sense for their automobile
    use since hoods, hats, and bonnets are all protective coverings --
    whether for heads, engines, or whatever else is under them.
    
    Bernie  

In Swedish (for telling time only) half-ten would mean 9:30.  I.e.,
a half hour before ten.  Swedish also uses "X over half-ten"
and "X before half ten" for times between 9:25 and 9:35 inclusive
(i.e., I've never heard "six over half ten").

The Danish number system is based on twenties (for large numbers):
	40	fyrti
	50	halvtres	(one-half of 20 less than 3*20)
	60	tres		(3*20)
	70	halvfyrs	(one-half of 20 less than 4*20)
	80	fyrs
	90	halvfems
	100	fems		(not often heard)
	110	halvseks	(very seldom heard)
	120	seks		(very seldom heard)

(I may have the spelling wrong -- my dictionary's upstairs.)

Danish uses the German numeric form, putting the one's place before
the ten's place: 56 is "seks og halv tres" (six plus (one-half ...))

When I started at Dec, the Copenhagen office's phone number was
Hellerup-9490.  This was a manual office, so you connected to the Hellerup
operator and said "fyr halvfems, halvfems." Fortunately, the Hellerup
operators knew that Dec was one of these odd-ball American companies
that probably got more international calls than the rest of the exchange
combined, so calls got shuffled to the office with little confusion.  And,
of course, they were too polite to snicker openly at my attempts to speak
Danish.

    Returning to the base topic of (British) English vs. American, I
    am currently re-reading Winston Churchill's magnum opus on the Second
    World War. In Volume Three -- "The Grand Alliance" -- I came across
    the following passage, referring to December 1941 and the setting up of
    a Joint Chiefs of Staff Comittee:
         
         The enjoyment of a common language was of course a supreme
         advantage in all British and American discussions. The delays
         and often partial misunderstandings which occur when interpreters
         are used were avoided. There were however differences of
         expression, which in the early days led to am amusing incident.
         The British staff prepared a paper which they wished to raise
         as a matter of urgency, and informed their American colleagues
         that they wished to "table it". To the American Staff "tabling"
         a paper meant putting it away in a drawer and forgetting it.
         [Whereas to the British it meant placing it on the agenda for
         immediate discussion ... JHH]. A long and even acrimonious
         argument ensued before both parties realised that they were
         agreed on the merits and wanted the same thing.

Some *late* comments!

>================================================================================
>Note 390.4             English vs. American, my experience               4 of 20
>MARVIN::KNOWLES "Pour encourager les auteurs"         4 lines  28-JUL-1987 08:00
>                            -< rotary yg (anagram) >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    A big roundabout with lots of squiggly roads joining it is called
>    (in one case I know of) 'a gyratory system'. There's no choice about
>    the way you go round it (like the sun, like a card dealer, like
>    a bottle of port).
>================================================================================
>Note 390.5             English vs. American, my experience               5 of 20
>WEBSTR::RANDALL "I'm no lady"                         4 lines  28-JUL-1987 08:29
>                            -< rotaries from hell >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Where I grew up we didn't allow such inventions of the Devil.  Just
>    nice square corners, thank you, with traffic lights as necessary.
>    
>    --bonnie

In Swindon, Wiltshire, they have a roundabout officially called the 'Magic 
Roundabout' which is composed of 5 roundabouts in a circle fed by 5 roads. You 
have a choice of two ways from any road to any other.  There is a diagram of 
it just before you reach it.  It's quite entertaining watching people from out 
of town approaching and the look on their faces.  It does, however, work very 
effectively, and has disposed of the old traffic jams that used to be there 
every morning and evening.

>================================================================================
>Note 390.20            English vs. American, my experience              20 of 20
>GENRAL::JHUGHES "NOTE, learn, and inwardly digest"   19 lines   9-OCT-1987 14:38
>                         -< A Churchillian input ... >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Returning to the base topic of (British) English vs. American, I
>    am currently re-reading Winston Churchill's magnum opus on the Second
>    World War. In Volume Three -- "The Grand Alliance" -- I came across
>    the following passage, referring to December 1941 and the setting up of
>    a Joint Chiefs of Staff Comittee:
>         
>         The enjoyment of a common language was of course a supreme
>         advantage in all British and American discussions. The delays
>         and often partial misunderstandings which occur when interpreters
>         are used were avoided. There were however differences of
>         expression, which in the early days led to am amusing incident.
>         The British staff prepared a paper which they wished to raise
>         as a matter of urgency, and informed their American colleagues
>         that they wished to "table it". To the American Staff "tabling"
>         a paper meant putting it away in a drawer and forgetting it.
>         [Whereas to the British it meant placing it on the agenda for
>         immediate discussion ... JHH]. A long and even acrimonious
>         argument ensued before both parties realised that they were
>         agreed on the merits and wanted the same thing.

This happened to me in DEC.  We had quite a good row before discovering we 
were all in violent agreement.

Jerry

.21>and has disposed of the old traffic jams that used to be there 
.21>every morning and evening.

I would imagine it has disposed of them!  And no doubt enriched a great 
many local body shops and junk dealers!

--bonnie

    
    Being a "Brit" and having worked in the U.S. and with american contracters
    I have come accross quite a few differences of usage. To make things worse,
    my wife speaks "American" English and now we live in England She find
    she can't understand anyone who comes from north of London or west of
    bristol.
    
    
    	U.K.		U.S.
    	-----------------------
    	Spanner		Wrench     (U.K. Wrench- to pull violently)
    	Torch		Flashlight (U.S. Torch- a burning brand)
    	Biro		Ballpoint  (Biro- Blank stares in U.S.!)
    	Pissed (as a..) Pissed     (U.K.-drunk U.S.- Angry)
    	Fortnight	?	   (U.K.- Two weeks)
    	petrol		gas
    	Manual		Stick shift (about cars)
    	Windscreen	Windshield      "
    	Bumper		Fendor		"
    	
    	And so it goes on.... there ia a whole lot more that I can't think
    of just now, but then to make things worse, the Slang in common use in the
    U.K. and the U.S. is very different:- except people in the U.K. sees a lot 
    more American made T.V. shows and Films (Movies) so WE know what YOU mean
    but YOU don't what WE mean, if you see what I mean?!?
    	
    Colin.	
    

A wrench (UK) is also a specific type of spanner ... typically a Monkey
Wrench (Plumbers adjustable spanner/wrench) or a Stilson Wrench (like
a Monkey wrench but with toothed jaws and an adjustable lower jaw).

    >	Spanner		Wrench     (U.K. Wrench- to pull violently)
    
    I usually wrench (pull violently) my spanner. 
    
    
    >more American made T.V. shows and Films (Movies) so WE know what YOU mean
    >but YOU don't what WE mean, if you see what I mean?!?
    
    Those of us who watch Python, Yes Minister, and Dr Who probably think
    we know what you mean. Those of us who watch East Enders and Bennie
    Hill probably DO know what you mean, if you see what I mean.

re: .23

>    	Biro		Ballpoint  (Biro- Blank stares in U.S.!)

Isn't Biro a trademark?  The "Biro" tradmark isn't used much in the U.S. but I 
would bet that folks in the U.S. would understand "Bic", which, I believe, is 
manufactured by the same company.

And to be more exact, isn't it a relatively cheap, disposable, ballpoint?

Clay  

    The problem with BIC in the U.S. is that they've advertized BIC
    disposable cigarette lighters as much as they have their pens.  
    
    

    In the US, if somebody said "Hey, toss me a BIC", they'd probably get a
    cigarette lighter rather than a ballpoint pen.
    
    					andrew

    
    re .26	I know what you mean
    
    re. 27	We have a habit of calling things by branded names, I
    		suppose whoever got to the market first, such as Hoover for
    		Vacuum cleaner
    		Bic ball points are popular but we still call 'em Biro's
    		

>                                         except people in the U.K. sees a lot 
>   more American made T.V. shows and Films (Movies) so WE know what YOU mean
>   but YOU don't what WE mean, if you see what I mean?!?
 
Well, almost. There are all those words that people don't warn you about -- 
how many Brits wouldn't splutter when they heard an exercise video advertised
on daytime American TV as "Great Ways to Trim Your Fanny"??? This word does 
*not* have the same meaning in the UK! 

John 
(A Brit in the US)

    Several years back I had spent a lengthly business trip in the south
    of England near Portsmouth and befriended some locals in an area
    called Hayling Island.  
    
    I had been invited to have dinner with a family on the island and asked
    by the host to bring some champagne.  I ended up buying the champagne
    from the hotel and when I arrived for dinner with the (extremely
    overpriced) bottle, the host's daughter giggled and informed me
    that "Daddy was just takin' the piss outa you.  He does that to
    everyone."  Oh, your father's a urologist, then?  I had no idea
    what to say so I said nothing.  
    
    During the same trip, the secretary who was taking care of me informed
    me one morning that she had asked one of the other girls to take
    over during the lunch hour as she had to get to Southleigh by noon
    for a "blow job".  I had no idea what to say so I said nothing.
    
    I hate to admit this but it's easier for Canadians to communicate
    with Americans that to communicate with British.
    
    Kris
    
     

    	English<->French seems easier that English<->American.
    
    	When I moved to France I went to group French lessons that included
    some Americans. We discovered that many common sayings could be
    translated word-for-word between French and English, but would be
    misunderstood by Americans.

>    	Fortnight	?	   (U.K.- Two weeks)
    
    Means the same thing, it's just not a word that's used much. 
    
>    	Manual		Stick shift (about cars)
    
    Huh?  My car's manual -- 4-speed, not exactly the kind of car I
    thought I'd drive when I grew up but then I didn't expect the kind
    of car I wanted to drive to cost $15K by the time I grew up,
    either.  
    
    But family car is automatic, so the kid can drive it.  She hasn't
    learned how to work the clutch pedal yet.
    
    You do hear stick-shift a lot, but plenty of people use the other
    term. 
    
    --bonnie

    G'day,
    
    
     I was told that fortnight was an American term....
    
    
    Apparently when the west was being won, a US cavalry unit was held
    captive in a military establishment by the Apaches. The seige went on
    for a long time and food became scarce. Eventually the Colonel in
    charge of the military men asked for a volunteer to take a message
    through the enemy lines to the nearest major town, some five days ride
    away. The volunteer duly fronted and was given the message and under
    cover of darkness, slipped away. 
    
    Just as dawn came and the volunteer thought all was ok, he was captured
    by the Apaches. They grabbed the message bag and opened it. Inside
    there was the message scrawled on a piece of linen, for all the paper
    in the camp had been used for other things. The messenger was pressed
    for to read the message, since the Apaches were not too hot in those
    days in reading the pioneers' writing.
    
    He resisted strongly, but under terrible pressure read the message:
    
    .............
    
    
    Send help. 
    Send food. 
    Do not delay. 
    In two weeks, Fort Night will be over.

    	A curious thing is that the French word for "2 weeks" is based on
    fifteen. I haven't been able to discover whether this is the fifteen
    nights that bracket the fourteen days or the fifteen days that bracket
    the fourteen nights.
    
    	The English were obviously only interested in the fourteen nights,
    so I suppose the French would have to claim that it was fifteen nights
    to maintain their reputation as lovers.

    Not only `en quinze'; also `quinze jours' (isn't it Denis? - if not
    I must be thinking of Spanish or something). So they are thinking of
    the fifteen days bracketing the fourteen nights.

    Which is at odds with the obsolete English word "se'nnight" meaning
    a week. The seven nights must bracket six days, and the sabbath
    doesn't count.
    
    b

    If one works a 6-day work week, then "quinze jours" is the length of a
    2-week vacation.
    
    -dave

Just count the days, say from Tuesday to Tuesday, and after a week you'll
get eight days (hence seven nights) and after two weeks you'll get quinze
jours.

Ian

    Re: .39
    
    That's the same method by which they came up with "octave."
    
Lew Lasher

    2 * 8 = 15.  Mathematicians will be evicted from this conference forthwith.

    Re the last few: not only is French using "quinzaine" or "quinze jours"
    to mean two weeks, but we also use "huitaine" or "huit jours" to mean
    one week, what would be called a sevenday in English (I think). I've no
    explanation available for that. Maybe Dave has got the correct reason
    with his hypothesis of one more night...;^)
    			Denis.

    How many days from Good Friday to Easter?

    "And on the third day ... ", so Friday, Saturday, and Sunday makes
    three.  That method of counting extends at least back to Biblical
    times.

    It's identical to the "fence post" problem.  You have 100 feet of fence
    in 5-foot sections. How many posts does it take to build the 100-foot
    fence?  The answer is 21.

    >How many days from Good Friday to Easter?
    >"And on the third day ... ", so Friday, Saturday, and Sunday makes three.
          ----------------
    
    Yes.  Not "Three days later ...."
    
    >That method of counting extends at least back to Biblical times.
    
    Yes.  But after that, people learned to count.

	It will not be said that we, in Descartes' own country,
	can't count !    :) 

	In fact, "huit jours" and "quinze jours" are NOT equal to 
	"one week" and "two weeks". 

	"One week" translates to "une semaine" in French and in the
	word semaine you will spot the number sept ("semaine" is 
	Latin for seven mornings).
	The usual translation of "two weeks" is "deux semaines". 
	
	"Huit jours" or "quinze jours" are not an exact number of days.
	They refer to some approximate length of time.
	If I had to put "huit jours" into English, it would be something 
	like "one week or so".
	For "quinze jours", perhaps my translation would be "roughly two weeks".

	Now the mathematicians amongst you can verify that
		2 * (one week or so) = (roughly two weeks)	
	Correct ?  :)

	There are a number of usual expressions in French that use 
	numbers as symbols; their value is kind of indicative, rather 
	than arithmetic. 

	Now if you want to say "eight days", as an exact quantity,
	such as a number of work days, don't say "huit jours", as it would 
	be ambiguous. You would use another wording, depending on context, 
	eg "huit journ�es de travail".

	Cheers,  roger

>	There are a number of usual expressions in French that use 
>	numbers as symbols; their value is kind of indicative, rather 
>	than arithmetic.

  You're not kidding, Roger. I can think of 36 different expressions
  like this!

    re: on the third day
    
    This tells us how the English counted in the days of King James
    when they translated the Bible into English.   It doesn't tell us
    how the Jews in Roman-controlled Palestine counted the days --
    anybody know what the Aramaic phrase translated as "on the third
    day" is? I've seen several other English translations of the same
    phrase including "three days later."
    
    There's also a very good argument that dates the crucifiction to
    something like 10 A.D. based on the fact that the count comes out
    right if the sabbath that started the night of Jesus' crucifiction
    were a special sabbath, followed by the regular Saturday sabbath. 
    That combination isn't very common but occured during Herod's
    tenure.  Sorry, I don't know enough about Jewish festival customs,
    Roman history, or historical astronomy to go into more detail
    about his data.
    
    --bonnie

Re: .47 et prev.

The crucifixion of Jesus could not possibly have taken place in A.D. 10,
for the simple and inescapable reason that it occurred during the
procuratorship of Pontius Pilatus, who did not assume that office in
Judaea until A.D. 26.  Sorry.
:-)

On the "three days" thing, Jesus is quoted in modern translations of
Matthew's gospel as saying, "I am able to destroy the temple of God and
rebuild it in three days."  This quotation is generally agreed to refer
to his death and resurrection,  which events supposedly occurred over a
span from the ninth hour on Friday to dawn on the following Sunday.  The
ninth hour of the day would have been at that season about 3 P.M.; hence
the total time involved was only some 39 hours.  But - and this is the
critical point - the action occurred over three separate days:  Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday.  Hence the "in three days" statement.

Bonnie, FYI, the quotation in question was not originally written in
Aramaic; Jesus himself probably spoke in Aramaic, but the entire New
Testament was written in Greek.

-d

    >The crucifixion of Jesus could not possibly have taken place in A.D.
    >10, for the simple and inescapable reason that it occurred during the
    >procuratorship of Pontius Pilatus, who did not assume that office in
    >Judaea until A.D. 26.  Sorry. :-)
     
    I'm probably remembering wrong.  I remember the Pilate dates being
    part of it, but as I said, I am not a Biblical scholar or a
    historian.  
    
    I was, however, under the impression that at least two of the
    gospels were written in Aramaic.  I shouldn't say "under the
    impression"; I learned it in a class on The Bible as Literature.
    
    --bonnie

    Digression into Bible scholarship...
    
    Two of the gospels (Matthew and Luke) do show the influence of a common
    source that may have been written in Aramaic.  This source was most
    likely a collection by the real Matthew consisting mostly of Jesus'
    oracular sayings and believed (according to my sources) to have been
    translated into Greek before being absorbed into the gospel we now call
    Matthew (written in Greek but quite probably not by Matthew himself).
    
    Luke draws from that same source, and this fact may be the reason your
    instructor indicated that two gospels were written in Aramaic.
    
    -d

    That sounds quite likely.  I think the prof. also indicated that
    some manuscripts that weren't finally included in the "authorized"
    Bible were written in Aramaic; I could be confusing that. 
    
    The only thing I really remember from that course is that the
    prof. basically thought everything religious was deliberate fraud.
    He was just as down on Hindus and wicca as he was on
    JudeoChristianity, so he was consistent.  But he firmly believed
    that the prophet Habbakuk was legitimate, because "habbakuk" means
    "cucumber" and nobody trying to write a fake prophecy they wanted
    people to take seriously would make up a name as silly as that for
    a prophet. . . but I digress from the digression.
    
    But that adds yet another layer of complexity on the day-counting
    problem.  Jewish people expressing their concept in Aramaic
    translated into Greek translated into English . . . no wonder it
    doesn't come out even.
    
    --bonnie

    Re: 390.44

 >>   >That method of counting extends at least back to Biblical times.
                               --------         ----
 >>   Yes.  But after that, people learned to count.
                ----
    
    No, before that.  After that came innumeracy.
        ------        -----

RE; several previous, on Greek vs. Aramaic

Given that King Constantine destroyed all original copies of the Bible
(except, perhaps, the `Scrolls' themselves?  Soon we may know?), and had
it re-written the way HE wanted it to sound (pro-priest, etc.), we have
NO evidence as to the language in which the Gospels (or even the non-Torah 
books of the Old Testament) were written!

Seems like a good argument, though...!   ;^}

- SteveT, who_didn't_come_here_for_one_but_couldn't_resist

Re: .53

Until you can prove incontrovertibly that all copies were indeed
destroyed, your argument is specious.

-d

Until YOU can prove conclusively that a current copy has survived, the
argument is academic...

- SteveT

    	The Coptic church in Ethiopia and probably in Egypt too was not
    within Constantine's range of influence. "Current copies" are hard to
    come by since papyrus and parchment have a limited lifetime, but we can
    be reasonably sure that anything from the Christian church in Ethiopia
    was not influenced by him. Later the Muslim libraries collected and
    meticulously copied documents from other sources (such as Persia) that
    were unavailable to him. I don't think he had too much influence over
    the Irish church, but maybe my herstory (the church is "the bride of
    Christ") is faulty.

.53> Given that King Constantine destroyed all original copies of the Bible
.53> (except, perhaps, the `Scrolls' themselves?  Soon we may know?), and had
.53> it re-written the way HE wanted it to sound (pro-priest, etc.), we have
.53> NO evidence as to the language in which the Gospels (or even the non-Torah 
.53> books of the Old Testament) were written!

.54> Until you can prove incontrovertibly that all copies were indeed
.54> destroyed, your argument is specious.

.55> Until YOU can prove conclusively that a current copy has survived, the
.55> argument is academic...

The Dead Sea Scrolls, which include some books of the Jewish Bible (Old
Testament), pre-date Emperor Constantine.  Since some of those scrolls
definitely survived him, I think that we can safely say that he did not destroy
all copies of them.

>> The Dead Sea Scrolls, which include some books of the Jewish Bible (Old
>> Testament), pre-date Emperor Constantine.  Since some of those scrolls
>> definitely survived him, I think that we can safely say that he did not 
>> destroy all copies of them.

Point well taken -- I withdraw my motion, Your Honor...

However, consider also that, until they have been translated and presented 
to the public, all we have to go by is the "accepted" text, which was by and
large a fabrication born of the aforementioned Emperor for his own purposes...

BTW, how'd we get into this in the first place...?

- SteveT

    Re: .58
    
    	"BTW, how'd we get into this in the first place...?"
    
    I think it goes something like this: In the beginning there was
    darkness.  And God said, "Let there be Light."
    
    Or something like that.
    
Lew Lasher

Re: .58

> And God said, "Let there be Light."

Bud Light?

-d

    re: .60
    
    Well, that's what He wanted, but the angel got it wrong.
    
    --bonnie

Re: .42


>    one week, what would be called a sevenday in English (I think). I've no

Not as a word it isn't.  Seven days, a week, or senight (old English)  take 
your choice.

The apparent Britishism "sugar soap" is mentioned in another notesfile.
Can someone translate this to American English?

    G'day,
    
     depends onthe context (doesn't everything?)
    
    Sugar soap is a product used to clean walls after the wallpaper has
    been removed. It takes off all the dirt and old size before the wall is
    re-sized and new paper hung. Size is a sort of sealer/bonder to allow
    paperhanging glue o stick to the wall, rather than be sucked away bythe
    porous plaster.
    
    
    derek

    >Size is a sort of sealer/bonder
    
    Aww.  Until I got to that part, I was hoping someone could take the
    old size off of my disks.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

I can recall having heard the expression "soft soap" used in the same context 
as "sugar soap".

One example that comes to mind is 
"You have encountered an application misfeature. 
 It may be corrected in a possible future release".



Chele

    G'day,
     "soft soap'ing someone is to try and get round them - a child being
    coy and smiling at a parent and saying  things like 'my lovely mummy
    will give me toffee because she is just soooo kind" is softsoaping...
    
    
    Not to be confused with sugar soap which is so harsh it will strip skin
    off sensitive (= normal_ hands)
    
    
    derek

    	My English dictionaries suggest that while "soap" is sodium salts
    of fatty acids, "soft soap" is potassium salts of fatty acids.
    
    	From a chemistry textbook:
    "
    Soap consists of the sodium or potassium salts (according to the
    variety of soap) of the complex acids present in fats and oils. The fat
    is boiled by means of steam with an aqueous solution of caustic
    soda..."
    (further details of production of hard soap skipped)
    "Soft soap is made by using caustic potash instead of caustic soda and
    the glycerol is left in. Oils containing more oleate are used here.
    Since, in general, potassium salts are more soluble than the
    corresponding sodium salts, soft soap is more soluble in water than is
    hard soap.
    "
    It goes on to mention the use of soft soap in shaving cream.
    
    	No book that I have has any mention of "sugar soap", and I had not
    heard of the term before, so I assume it must come from one of our
    colonies ;-)
    
    	Dave
    

    G'day,
    
    
    
    heard of the term before, so I assume it must come from one of our
    colonies ;-)
    
    
    Ohh really? 
    
    Try the local hardware store - or should that be cancailler?
    
    BTW is this you?
    
    Common Name:   BRIAN MONAHAN
    Search Surname:  MONAHAN  Search Given Name:  BRIAN  DTN:  828-5120
    Telephone:  [33]92955111  Intrnl Mail Addr:  VBE  Location:  VBE
    Node:  PASTIS  Username:  MONAHAN
    
    
    or is the family name a coincidence? or were you borrowing a desk?
    
    
    derek
    

    G'day again,
    
     please coat the previous note in smilies.... I'm sure Dave meant no
    harm  and he really is a nice fellow, and he just loves to tease but he
    does it oh so gently and with smilies and oh he is just so nice...
    
    
    dj

    	Even my French-English dictionary, while it has "soft soap" as
    "savon vert", has no mention of "sugar soap", so I wouldn't be sure
    what to ask for at the quincaillerie.
    
    (Yes, I'm the same person as the ELF entry you quoted, but it says
    "Dave" on my DEC badge. I have known of other Monahans in DEC. In 1974
    I was working in the Ealing office, and since it was the only office in
    the London area and served all of S.E. England it was commonly referred
    to as the London office, and I used to get crossed mail with a Monahan
    working in the London Ontario office. There was also a Denise Monahan
    in New York, but I had no more contact with her than occasionally
    seeing her in notes files. Finally, my son worked for DEC for a year in
    Reading before he was TFSO'd.  What this is really leading up to is that
    80 years ago my grandfather went to some trouble trying to trace the
    family tree because a Monahan died intestate in Australia leaving 2
    million quid and no known relatives. Apparently in those circumstances
    the Australian government holds the money in trust (and adds compound
    interest) until a claimant appears. If you know an Australian Monahan
    he could be very rich, and if it could be shown that I was a relation
    too then we could both be very rich. End of family and financial
    rathole ;-)

    Hey folks,
    
    If you're going to discuss Englishisms, you need an Englishish
    Dictionary :-)
    
    Chamber's 20th Century Dictionary Revised Edition (1979) (ISBN 0 550
    10226) contains:
    
    ...sugar soap, an alkaline cleansing or stripping preparation for paint
    surfaces;...
    
    Jon TheEnglishMan Morris