| Title: | The Joy of Lex |
| Notice: | A Notes File even your grammar could love |
| Moderator: | THEBAY::SYSTEM |
| Created: | Fri Feb 28 1986 |
| Last Modified: | Mon Jun 02 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1192 |
| Total number of notes: | 42769 |
I stumbled on this while trying to construct a noun form from the
verb 'to obtain'. I realised that there are several different ways
of doing this for other -tain words, but nothing for obtain. This
is strange since I'd assume the etymology of all of them is from
Latin through the French -tenir.
Thus: main-tain -tenance
sus-tain -tenance
con-tain [in]con-tinence
{-tainment}
per-tain -tinence
re-tain -tention
ob-tain ?
Can any etymologists out there throw light on this strange diversity?
Jeff.
| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 336.1 | BISTRO::TIMMER | Rien Timmer, Valbonne. | Mon Mar 23 1987 08:45 | 2 | |
My COD mentions 'obtention'.
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| 336.2 | YIPPEE::LIRON | Mon Mar 23 1987 08:48 | 8 | ||
The noun "obtention" exists in French, but not frequently
used.
Conversely, "pertinent" and "pertinence" exist in French, but
there is no corresponding verb.
roger
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| 336.3 | It looks like it's in the prefix. | APTECH::RSTONE | >>>>----He went that-a-way!----> | Mon Mar 23 1987 11:42 | 9 |
I suspect that the derivations of 'obtain' and 'obverse' may give
a clue...
Obtain is derived from the Latin *obtinere* (to attain) and obverse
comes from *obvertere* (to turn toward). Do we have a Latin scholar
who can confirm that the prefix 'ob-' is a reference to one's self?
Other words, such as observe, obsess, obstacle, obstinate, obstruct,
etc. lead me to the same conclusion.
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| 336.4 | YIPPEE::LIRON | Mon Mar 23 1987 12:52 | 27 | ||
Since I studied Latin for so long (9 years !) I'll venture
the following:
re: -1
Not quite so. The Latin prefix ob indicates the general idea
of opposition (ob-position), something which is across your way,
or in front of your eyes.
This is visible enough for obstacle, obstinate, obstruct, object,
objection, objurgation etc ... All words in ob- from Latin origin
contain that idea, sometime deeply hidden or even forgotten.
It is less obvious (ob-vious) for *obtenere* and *obvertere*;
but I believe these verbs were used about weapons; obtenere then meant
"hold (weapon) against", and obvertere "turn (weapon) against".
Their meaning has significantly evolved.
re:.0
It should be noted that in the initial list of verbs in -tain, some
of them derive from *tenere* (to hold) and some from *tinere*
(a decadent form of the same verb, I think); this is why they
generated differing forms of nouns (in -ance, or -ence).
Perhaps someday I'll look up my Latin dictionary to check if the above
is true !
roger
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