Conference taveng::bagels

To add a few facts left out by Colin;

	The note in question was deleted by the author following complaints.
	The author also published a retraction which was later deleted.
	The author has explained themselves fully in correspondance with Colin.
	The conference is question has been closed as a result of this incident.

Dave.

	Without getting into questions about facts, and as a moderator of
  a number of other notes conferences, I can tell you that if any note is
  something that could be offensive to anyone (the truth or otherwise of
  the contents are irrelevant) it would be a violation of the P & P and it
  would be the responsibility of the moderators to immediately remove the note.
  In the US at least the P&P manual is very clear about this.  I understand
  that these kinds of problems arise a lot more readily in the DIGITAL notes
  conference on HUMAN.  Moderators need to be extremely proactive on these
  things and personnel takes a very dim view of abuses.  It doesn't take much
  to close a notes conference, especially if it is not a work-related one.
  This latter seems to have happened to this conference.

	Most of this is at a technical level.  On a personal level, it's
  important to pursue anti-semitism whereever you find it and through all
  possible channels.  Allowing it to appear unchallenged encourages it to
  flourish.

		Danny

Speaking as a moderator, my attitude is to avoid personnel at all costs.
It is not worth the risk of having a notesfile closed down. Especially
with the recent concerns that non-work related notesfiles might all be 
shut down (decision made not to do that) every such incident can be one more
potential problem.
As a moderator I would hide the note and then work out the issues between
the people involved.

From .1 it sounds like there is more to this story than originally said in .0
so it is hard to comment with incomplete data.

yoseff

        This topic is incorrectly titled. What it really should say is 
        something like; "Dealing with a sick joke in one notes 
        conference". That is exactly what it was, a sick joke and poor 
        attempt at a wind-up.
        
        
        There is no anti-Semitism within Digital OR the notes conference 
        that I have seen.  The note in reference was very offensive and 
        never should have been entered. It was but has now been removed 
        and a public apology posted.
        
        It is a great shame that the conference is off the net. It 
        needn't have happened. The head of personnel should have never 
        got to know of this perception of a problem. If personnel needed 
        to get involved then it should have gone through the 'chain of 
        command'. Local rep etc. I am sure that this would have been 
        sorted out without needless fuss. I thought it had been sorted. 
        Note deleted, appology etc. 
        
        
        Simon

    I think you mean "NOT dealing with......"
    
    As you say, a total over-reaction to a stupid note that should never
    have been entered.

>    As you say, a total over-reaction to a stupid note that should never
>    have been entered.

  It is the bane of every moderator to have to deal with stupid notes that
  should never have been entered.  Unfortunately that's the main part of the
  job of moderator.

		Danny

    But normally deletion and retraction is sufficient.

RE:    <<< Note 1364.6 by SOFBAS::MAYER "Reality is a matter of perception" >>>

�  It is the bane of every moderator to have to deal with stupid notes that
�  should never have been entered.  Unfortunately that's the main part of the
�  job of moderator.

    Speaking as a moderator of several conferences, including the one now
    closed down, I can only agree with that. What I cannot agree with is
    the premise that it is every moderator's duty to have to deal with an
    escalation of a private dispute to BOM level. BOM, for those who do not
    know, stands for Board of Management, and the BOM member with
    responsibility for Personnel is the highest personnel manager in the
    UK, and in Corporate terms answers directly to the SLT in the US.
    
    As a previous noter pointed out, there is a chain of events, a process
    to follow, laid down in PP&P and the ODP. Escalating a personal dispute
    about a note that has been deleted and apologised for, to BOM level,
    thereby causing the undeserved demise of a very popular conference, and
    once again flagging non-work-related noting as a Problem to upper
    management looking for reasons to stop it, does not appear as a process
    in any documentation I have seen.
    
    Such action, whilst having closed our conference, endangers all
    employee-interest noting, which includes THIS CONFERENCE.
    
    To see the person who did this writing a note in here transparently
    asking for sympathy and support, under the delusion of anti-semitism
    in our Company sticks in my craw.
    
    Shalom, 
    
    Laurie Brown, Brussels, Belgium.

    Now that this has been discussed here, could someone please explain
    to those few of us in the US, who didn't read whatever notesfile is
    beind discussed and don't even know what notesfile it was just what
    happened?
    
    The previous notes state that this may affect us, but they start in
    the middle of the story (or maybe at the end) and they do not provide
    any context.

    Very briefly, and with my one opinions scattered amongst it, a stupid
    note was entered as, I suspect, a joke. The note could definitely be
    seen as racist. Complaints, justified IMO, were made about it. Both by
    mail to the author and the moderators and in the notesfile. It was
    removed and a retraction entered. The author deleted the retraction
    when it had stood for as long as the original note had.
    
    I actually feel that both the original note and the retraction should
    have stood. If you say something in a notesfile, you ought to stand by
    it. However, with it all deleted and apologised for that should have
    been the end of it.
    
    Unfortunately further complaints were made to the BOM Personnel person.
    It seems silly to take it that way without even allowing the offender's
    manager an opportunity to take action and even stranger to do it after
    all the apologies and whatever had taken place.
    

	Re:.10  As a moderator, I must disagree you about at least one thing:
  a note that shouldn't have been entered should be deleted IMMEDIATELY, not
  withstanding apologies or anything else.  The apology could remain along
  with an explanation of what is going on and why it happened.

	Neither you nor the author of this topic explain what the notes
  conference was about, what the topic was about, or what was in the note that
  was deleted.  Noone here (well most people) have any idea of what was in it.
  As a result we can only talk in general terms.  As to the question, which I
  realise is very important especially to you as moderator, of why personnel
  was involved, that depends a great deal on 1) the contents of the note, and
  2) how the note was handle by A) the author, B) the person or persons
  complaining about it and C) by the moderator.  If you want people to agree
  with your viewpoint, people need to know all the facts.  It doesn't mean that
  you viewpoint is wrong or that people disagree with you, it's just that
  people have no way of knowing any better.

	Not withstanding the above, Personnel are the right people to review
  situations like this, that's part of their job.  They are supposed to make
  judgements about the propriety or impropriety of any and all material which
  may appear in a notes conference (among other places).

		Danny

    Sorry, you misunderstand.
    
    I am not a moderator or the notes file. I don't know the author. I just
    happened to see the saga.
    
    The reason I didn't detail the note is two-fold. Firstly, it WAS
    offensive and I've no wish to extend it's impact. Secondly, with
    various irate noters/moderators and Personnell staff wandering around 
    I've no wish to irritate anyone.
    
    The reason I thought it should stand, with the apology, rather than
    being deleted, is it was more of an indictment of the author than 
    anything anyone else could say. Mind you. I guess then it could have
    offended more people.
    
    Also, I've no wish for people to agree or disagree with me, I wasn't
    involved. IMO, as I've said, it was an offensive and stupid note to
    post, but it was deleted and retracted.
    
    I think I'll shut up now.

  RE:.12
>    I think I'll shut up now.

  Please don't.  Just because you may disagree with something doesn't mean your
  viewpoint shouldn't be heard.

  I misunderstood and thought that you were the moderator.  Sorry about that.
  One other point I should make:  Leaving a note there to show how stupid
  someone is merely causes more trouble not less.  Not everything should be
  done in public.

		Danny