Conference taveng::bagels

    From what I have seen the concern over women being somehow coerced to
    go to a minyan for women just does not exist. 
    
    Certain things like Barchu and Kedushah cannot be said (assuming an
    Orthodox perspective here since both Conservative and Reform generally
    allow women full participation in all services). But other things like
    reading torah are certainly done. I assume other noters have attended
    women's minyanim and could shed more light on the actual format.
    
    yf
    

    >both Conservative and Reform generally allow women full
    >participation in all services
    
    Reform yes, but you can't blanket statement the Conservative movement. 
    There is still a "traditional" wing that is not egalitarian.
    
    --David

    David, that is why I said generally. I know there is a traditional
    wing, I feel much more comfortable there than within the Orthodox
    movement. However, the number of Conservative shuls in the US that
    do not have women participate in services is very small. Canada has
    a higher percentage of such places.
    

    re: .1
    
    Please forgive the ignorance of this question, but why are women
    prohibited from reciting the Barchu and the K'dusha?
    
    Ram�n

There are certain things that are considered D'var sh'e BeK'dusha. They
require a minyan which is defined as 10 men over the age of 13. Only someone
who can belong to the minyan can recite a  D'var sh'e BeK'dusha.
Barcho and K'dusha both fall into this category. This applies mostly
to Orthodox and some Conservative synogagues.

    How do these differ from Reading the Torah? 
    
    Don't you require a minyan to do that?
    
    Also, what about saying Kaddish?
    
    Malcolm
    

Reading the Torah does not require a minyan, neither does making the brachot
over the torah. However, the Barchu before the brachot before reading the 
would require a minyan. Not sure what the deal is with Kaddish, but I know
that women do recite kaddish.

    Hi,
    
    That's quite strange. When I go to shul and there is no minyan then 
    there is no reading from the Torah and no Kaddish. 
    
    This is why people often ask for help in making a minyan when they wish
    to say Kaddish.
    
    Can you square this with your statement in .7?
    
    Malcolm
    
    
    
    

    
    My Uncle recently died and he had only daughters.  The Rabbi
    said that my cousins could recite kaddish if they wish,
    but he does not suggest it.  For the month after the death,
    the fact that the daughters are saying Kaddish does not
    count, a man had to be saying Kaddish for that month.
    
    Obviously, this was an orthodox Rabbi.
    
    Amy
    
    BTW: sure was interesting when the people from the synogogue came
    over and on the wall were pictures of my cousins holding/reading 
    from the Torah at their Bnai Mitvah, at their previous synogogue.

Please don't take this as a flame - it is not intended to be one...

I have a question regarding the barring of women from prayer and study
within Orthodox Judaism.  My question comes from wanting to understand
that which perpelxes me, not from wanting to anger anyone or start a
debate...

Why is it that women are not allowed to say Kaddish, or to hold or read
from the Torah?  What does it say, and where, that forbids this?

The previous reply seemed to have a sad message to it - that when a person
with daughters and no sons dies, they cannot be prayed over by those who
grieve their loss the most - a wife cannot seek solace in prayer for her dead
husband, and daughters cannot do so for either of their parents.

And the reference to the photos of the young women holding and reading from
the Torah at their B'nai Mitzvah services causing "looks" also seems to
have a sad message to it.

Why are Jewish women not allowed to practice their religion as fully as
men, where the Orthodox are concerned? 

~Caryn

I kind of wondered the same questions that you asked.

In some of the reading that I've been doing, I remember reading that women
were not so much prohibited from certain prayers and so on that were re-
quired of men, but were excused from doing those things that were time
bound commitments because they had other pulls on their time such as child-
care they couldn't necessarily be put aside to meet the time requirements
of certain acts.  Wish I could remember the details more.  Anyhow, some how
people moved from excusing women from these time-bound requirements to
prohibiting them.

Leslie

Re: .11

On Hol HaMoed Succcot I attended a Bat Mitvah here in Israel where the women
formed a separate minyan for the Torah reading, thereby allowing the Bat Mitvah
girl to get called up to the Torah.

The minyan was held in a so-called "orthodox" schul in Jerusalem and received
the sanction of a local Rabbi. The women said Barchu and Kaddish. The Bat
Mitvah's parents said that everything was pre-approved by the Rabbi.

> In some of the reading that I've been doing, I remember reading that women
> were not so much prohibited from certain prayers and so on that were re-
> quired of men, but were excused from doing those things that were time
> bound commitments because they had other pulls on their time such as child-
> care they couldn't necessarily be put aside to meet the time requirements
> of certain acts.  Wish I could remember the details more.  Anyhow, some how
> people moved from excusing women from these time-bound requirements to
> prohibiting them.
 	
I think that this is more or less correct. I could never understand why some 
women are so anxious to be included in all of the men's Halachic obligations. 
Personally, I'd feel better having the option of skipping tfillin in the
morning when I have a busy schedule or sleeping late on Shabbat morning instead
of going to Schul. Having the option to decide is definitely a privilege.

Re: .10

> And the reference to the photos of the young women holding and reading from
> the Torah at their B'nai Mitzvah services causing "looks" also seems to
> have a sad message to it.

Caryn - What is so "sad" about it? It may be unusual and interesting so it
attracts "looks" but if it is done in compliance with Halacha it is
encouraging to see women taking an active interest in Jewish rituals. 

> Why are Jewish women not allowed to practice their religion as fully as
> men, where the Orthodox are concerned? 

They are not only allowed to practice their religion but are OBLIGATED to do
so.  The Halacha IS their "religion" and so by complying with it they ARE
practicing their religion. Differences in Halachic requirements (between men
and women, Kohanim and laymen, adults and children, born-Jews and converts
etc.) are part of the Jewish way of life and are not meant to be
discriminatory.

-Itzhak

>The minyan was held in a so-called "orthodox" schul in Jerusalem and received
>the sanction of a local Rabbi. The women said Barchu and Kaddish. The Bat
>Mitvah's parents said that everything was pre-approved by the Rabbi.
    
    This is very interesting. Was the father allowed to be there to 
    watch the procedings? If so, was there any limit on how many men could
    also be there?
    
    Malcolm 

In non-orthodox circles, there seems to be an emphasis on women taking on
men's responsibilities, and not vice versa.  For instance, girls are
halachically responsible for their actions at 12 and boys at 13, but
reforms and conservatives typically make the Bat Mitzvah at 13.  I've
never heard of non-orthodox men lighting candles, going to the mikveh,
or taking challah.

    
    In our family, everyone sayed the blessing over the candles,
    everyone took turns saying the Kiddish and Chamotze.
    
    Just one data point,
    Amy

Re: .13

> >The minyan was held in a so-called "orthodox" schul in Jerusalem and received
> >the sanction of a local Rabbi. The women said Barchu and Kaddish. The Bat
> >Mitvah's parents said that everything was pre-approved by the Rabbi.
>     
>     This is very interesting. Was the father allowed to be there to 
>     watch the procedings? If so, was there any limit on how many men could
>     also be there?

    The women made their own minyan only for the Torah reading.  They put
    up a mechitza in the back of the room for men but since the men
    were busy with their own Torah reading, this 'ezrat g'varim' was
    mostly empty. Now and then the father or some curious guest (like
    myself) went in to watch.
    
    I must admit they did a very nice job. The only problem they had was
    with 'hagbeh'. They didn't quite manage that.
    
-Itzhak

RE: .12

Thank you for your response.  I have a couple of more questions (again, no
flames here, just wanting to know):


>On Hol HaMoed Succcot I attended a Bat Mitvah here in Israel where the women
>formed a separate minyan for the Torah reading, thereby allowing the Bat Mitvah
>girl to get called up to the Torah.

>The minyan was held in a so-called "orthodox" schul in Jerusalem and received
>the sanction of a local Rabbi. The women said Barchu and Kaddish. The Bat
>Mitvah's parents said that everything was pre-approved by the Rabbi.

Why is it necessary for women to form a separate minyan to celebrate a Bat
Mitzvah?  My understanding of the Orthodox Halacha is that men and women
cannot pray together, but why?  Why cannot or did not the father of the Bat
Miztvah participate in his daughter's ceremony? And what was it that needed
to be approved by the rabbi?  The service itself, the readiness of the
girl, ...? 

.
.
.
	
>I think that this is more or less correct. I could never understand why some 
>women are so anxious to be included in all of the men's Halachic obligations. 
>Personally, I'd feel better having the option of skipping tfillin in the
>morning when I have a busy schedule or sleeping late on Shabbat morning instead
>of going to Schul. Having the option to decide is definitely a privilege.

I think men should have this option too.  It's obligatory for men, optional
for women?  From your perspective that may seem like a benefit for the
women.  From my perspective it seems to diminish the importance of women's
participation in the eyes of the Jewish community - as if to say "It
doesn't matter if women do it or not, but they can if they want to; but it
matters for men - they MUST do it."  So why *don't* men get to have the
option?

>>Re: .10

>> And the reference to the photos of the young women holding and reading from
>> the Torah at their B'nai Mitzvah services causing "looks" also seems to
>> have a sad message to it.

>Caryn - What is so "sad" about it? It may be unusual and interesting so it
>attracts "looks" but if it is done in compliance with Halacha it is
>encouraging to see women taking an active interest in Jewish rituals. 

My remarks were based on my interpretation of the author's reply - that the
"looks" were not of interest but rather surprise or [perhaps] disapproval.
That was how I interpreted the reply.  Perhaps I'm off-base.  I can't know
for sure unless the author clarifies that part.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

~Caryn

    Caveat:  I'm not Orthodox, so I'm just reporting what I've learned
    through limited exposure to frum folks.  Our Orthodox readers may
    correct my information.  Here goes.
    
    The rationale for women not praying with men is so that the men don't
    get distracted by the (sexual appeal of) women.  This would explain why
    the all-female Bat Mitzvah was okay, but the men, including the father,
    could not watch.  Thus, the mechitzah.
    
    The rationale for women not being obligated to set times of prayer, is
    that women might often be distracted by child-rearing responsibilities. 
    After all, if you have a wailing baby when you MUST say a certain set
    of prayers, that is an irreconcilable conflict.  The woman's first
    responsibility is to nurture the child.  Now, one can make an argument
    that women nurture young children only for a limited number of years,
    so therefore unmarried women and women with older kids might be
    obligated.  I don't know how halacha addresses this.  I would assume
    that in traditional societies where several generations live together,
    a woman or girl of any age might often be saddled with care for a
    youngster.
    
    Remember that there are several daily set times when a man MUST say
    prayers.  There is only limited latitude for him to shift this time. 
    The prayers are preferably said in a minyan (hence synagogue in many
    cases) but must otherwise be said alone.  This is why Jewish services
    are set at such predictable times of day.  For instance, consider the
    times of Yom Kippur services.
    
    If a woman were obligated not only to stop everything and say prayers
    at a set time, but to preferably get into a minyan, which might require
    her walking to a different building, this could be an additional
    burden.
    
    That being said,  I have a hard time with claims that a woman MUST NOT
    do certain things, such as say Kaddish or study Torah.  I really doubt
    there is any basis for such a claim.  Further, G-d does not deny a
    place in the other world to one for whom no descendant says Kaddish,
    nor for one whose daughter rather than son does so.  This is patently
    absurd.   Those who believe that their afterlife is somehow thus
    blighted would do well to examine their beliefs.  
    
    I have no doubt that traditional Orthodoxy may in many communities be
    very male chauvinist.  However, I do believe that the halachah itself
    grants great dignity and respect to all people, including women.  There
    are many Orthodox women today who are seeking for a more balanced
    situation.  I have no doubt that they are making some headway.
    
    Laura

>>>My remarks were based on my interpretation of the author's reply - that the
>>>"looks" were not of interest but rather surprise or [perhaps] disapproval.
>>>That was how I interpreted the reply.  Perhaps I'm off-base.  I can't know
>>>for sure unless the author clarifies that part.
    
    Yup, you interpreted my paragraph correctly.
    
    Amy
    

    
>    The rationale for women not being obligated to set times of prayer, is
>    that women might often be distracted by child-rearing responsibilities. 
>    After all, if you have a wailing baby when you MUST say a certain set
>    of prayers, that is an irreconcilable conflict.  The woman's first
>    responsibility is to nurture the child.  Now, one can make an argument
>    that women nurture young children only for a limited number of years,
>    so therefore unmarried women and women with older kids might be
>    obligated.  I don't know how halacha addresses this.  I would assume
>    that in traditional societies where several generations live together,
>    a woman or girl of any age might often be saddled with care for a
>    youngster.


I'll ask the question I've asked before and no one seems to ever answer - if
a man has primary responsibility for child rearing, either by choice or he is
widowed/divorced, etc, does this relieve him of the positive time bound 
commandments as well?  If not, I don't get his whole set of halachic logic...

Waky

    Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, Who makes a
    distinction between day and night, the 6 working days and the
    Sabbath...
    
    Distinctions don't automatically equate to preference/heirarchy. 
    Clearly, Shabbat is a delight and is highly desireable in comparrison
    to the 6 working days - but, in a real sense, doesn't one define the
    other?  Is Shabbat *really* Shabbat (on one level) without a full week of 
    working?   Does "morning" have any contextual meaning without
    "evening"?
    
    Is a week complete without either element?  Is a day complete without
    either element?
    
    While one might prefer Shabbat to the 6 working days, G-d gave us both
    - and they both serve their own distinct purposes in His economy - both
    are worthy of being embraced.
    
    I believe this applies to men and women.
    
    I also understand Torah to show a *distinction* between men and women,
    but an equality in G-d's eyes.
    
    (ducking the incoming ;-)
    
    Steve

    Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, Ruler of the Universe, Who made me a
    woman!