Conference taveng::bagels

re    > 623.38 from ROSENBLUH
>
> So it was a necessity that the death camps be set up and
> staffed in places where the local populace could be counted upon, and
> Poland fit the bill.

    This is of course nonsense.
    
    On the other hand, anti-semitism did increase dramatically in Poland
    before the WWII after the death of Pilsudski and long before Hitler and
    Stalin took over Poland.
    
    In my opinion, most of the world events that included increase OR
    decrease of anti-semitism in various countries/regions can be largely
    and directly attributed to the government policies and to a smaller
    extent to the "historical tendency" of the local cultures. Of course,
    if a ruling establishment practices anti-semitism for decades or even
    centuries, it will contribute the "local tendency". 
    
    I do not know how many of you heard of recent experiments in schools
    that illustrate the development of racism via "pretend" games. It does
    not take very much for a game to get out of hand in a matter of days --
    so gullible is human nature. So please drop the "all xxx are racist"
    crap. Many of us would do unspeakable things after proper conditioning.

re .-1

Are you really characterising my recent longer note on Polish anti-semitism
in this century as being in essence 'all xxx are racists crap' ???
Well, maybe you meant someone else, and merely forgot to make clear
to or of whom you were speaking.  Just bad luck on my part, you might say.

You seem to have a pretty incredible understanding
of history and culture, in which there is apparently such a thing as
'local culture' which is somehow an entity completely distinct and 
largely isolated from local (or otherwise) power structures, institutions, 
ideas and governments. Oh yes, and 'ruling establishments'.  

I feel it inappropriately hostile to go around dismissing half-baked 
silly ideas I sometimes find in this notesfile as 'nonsense', so let's just say,
'pretty darn amazing incredible'...

If you do bother trying to reread what I wrote, you will notice that
I nowhere address the question of factors contributing to Polish anti-semitism
in modern times (meaning roughly 17th c. onwards), I merely objected strongly
to Piotr's attempts to deny it's existence. 

So how you can decide that you have a contrary view of the origins of
anti-semitism to mine, is a mystery to me.

> 632.2 ROSENBLUH
>
> If you do bother trying to reread what I wrote, you will notice that
> I nowhere address the question of factors contributing to Polish anti-semitism
> in modern times (meaning roughly 17th c. onwards), I merely objected strongly
> to Piotr's attempts to deny it's existence. 

    Kathy,

    Would you please show us where I attempted to deny its existence?
    I simply tried to show as fully as possible the complexity of the
    historical situations the BAGELS readers attempt to discuss...

    Piotr

    re .2

>    Just bad luck on my part, you might say.
 
    Sorry, the "crap" business was not in reply to your specific note, and
    I should have been more clear that only the first sentence was meant as
    a reply, yet not even to your complete note (which I did read in its
    entirety and I do agree with many points there), but to the quoted
    sentence, which I take issue with. 
    
>    You seem to have a pretty incredible understanding
>of history and culture, 
 
    Thank you! :-)
       
>    in which there is apparently such a thing as
>'local culture' which is somehow an entity completely distinct and 
>largely isolated from local (or otherwise) power structures, institutions, 
>ideas and governments. Oh yes, and 'ruling establishments'.  

    I did not say "entity completely distinct", but I insist that they are
    different! I used Pilsudsky as an example where the absence/presence of
    a "presidential" figure of certain beliefs has drastically affected the
    ethnic relations in Poland. 
      
>    So how you can decide that you have a contrary view of the origins of
>anti-semitism to mine, is a mystery to me.
 
    I hadn't. Just bad luck on your part, I might say (re-using your
    phrase).
    
    Alex

    I am still waiting to hear a documented response to the note 632.0.
    For now I would like to alert the more serious readers of BAGELS to
    a drama to be shown on PBS that will re-create the infamous German
    meeting so central to this note's topic:
    
    	"Hitler's Final Solution: The Wannsee Conference" (W.German; 1987)
    	Monday, May 1, 1989 at 9:00 PM, Channel 2-Boston, 11-New Hamshire.
    
    Piotr

    re: -1
    
    What are you trying to imply by "the more serious readers of BAGELS"?
    Yes I plan to watch & tape the Wannsee conference, and we are 100%
    aware of which country planned the "final solution", but this does
    not excuse the Polish people's role (excluding the Poles
    who were exemplary in saving Jewish lives) during the war.  I'm
    sorry Piotr, I just can't buy the standard anti-communist line of
    "the commies did it, not us".
    
    David

    re .5,6
    
    David, you missed Piotr's point:
    
    Somebody suggested that Germans built concentration camps in Poland
    beacuse of Polish anti-semitism. Piotr brought evidence in .0
    suggesting that Poland was chosen by Germans for logistical reasons
    that did not include Polish sentiments if any.
    
    	Alex

    re .5,.6,.7
    
    Thank you, Alex.
    
    	Piotr
    

    re: .7
    
    Ok I'll accept that point, but how do you react to the local Pole's
    responses in the movie Shoah?
    
    David

    re .9
    
    I am at a disadvantage having not seen the film.
    
    Alex

    re: .9
    
    David,
    
    I react with great disappointment both for him and for Mr.Lanzmann...
    
    	Piotr
    

reply to: < Note 632.11 by TALLIS::KOZIOL "Perestroika+Glasnost=Destroika" >


>                                   -< shame >-
>
>    re: .9
>    
>    David,
>    
>    I react with great disappointment both for him and for Mr.Lanzmann...
>    
>    	Piotr


	Shame for "Shoah"??
	Shame for David Cherson??

	Disappointment in "Shoah"?

	I'm confused.

/don feinberg    

    re Shoah
    
    I am familiar with neither the movie nor the events around it,
    could somebody explain or point me to some info?

    MILD Flame ON:
    
    Really, the last few replies (except Don Feinberg's) have been
    less than edifying.
    
    Can people be a little more verbal in what they're asking/saying?
    
    It's not as if we're getting charged by the word here. This is not
    the Classified section in the Globe.
    
    Flame OFF.
    
      Alan

    re: .9
    
    I'm a little confused, why should Claude Lanzmann have any shame?
    In my humble opinion he did a service to humanity by producing SHOAH.
    
    David

    re: .15
    
    Because the witnesses to the Holocaust Mr.Lanzmann focuses in his
    movie on were POWERLESS to change what was going on around them.
    
    On the other hand he DELIBERATELY misses an opportunity to point
    his finger at the great and powerful of the world who could have
    done something to stop the German crimes... Did you learn anything
    from SHOAH who THESE people were? If so, please tell some NAMES...
    
    	Piotr
    

reply to: Note 632.16 by TALLIS::KOZIOL 

>    re: .15
>    
>    Because the witnesses to the Holocaust Mr.Lanzmann focuses in his
>    movie on were POWERLESS to change what was going on around them.
>    
>    On the other hand he DELIBERATELY misses an opportunity to point
>    his finger at the great and powerful of the world who could have
>    done something to stop the German crimes... Did you learn anything
>    from SHOAH who THESE people were? If so, please tell some NAMES...

	Piotr,

	I think that your note distorts things in several ways:

	A) The people who he focusses on ARE relatively ordinary
	   people.  But two things come out:

		- First, you must listen to the attitudes of the interviewees.  
		  They wouldn't have done anything even if they could have.

		- Second, at the time, there _were_ people who DID DO a great
		  deal, even though they could be called, as you want to say, 
		  "powerless". In Israel, they're called the "Righteous 
		  Gentiles". There were many such in Germany, Poland, the 
		  Ukraine, Holland, and other countries. Despite what you
		  want to call "powerlesness", they did manage to save quite a 
		  few thousands of Jews.


	B)  There IS now some focus on the "Great and Powerful".  There's
	    a new book -- by a non-Jewish scholar -- called "The Abandonment
	    of the Jews".  It is a shocking and horrifying expose of the 
	    inaction and prejudice in the American and British governments,
	    and of the media, of the time.  It is, kind of, "your worst
	    fears, realized".

	    One cannot read this book and be unmoved.  (If you ever had any
	    admiration for FDR, perhaps you should think twice before
	    reading...).

	    BUT: That the American and British governments acted like a
	    bunch of SOBs does not reduce the seriousness of the situation
	    in Poland.  Blaming the Americans for their inaction and
	    anti-semitism does not reduce or absolve the cooperative
	    Poles (And/or Germans. And/or Austrians. And/or French.
	    And/or ...).

	    I don't think that Lanzmann DELIBERATELY "missed" this.  I think
	    that, in Shoah, one of his primary intentions was to focus on very 
	    direct, personal attitudes -- regardless of the the attitudes 
	    of the governments -- as a major contributor to the suffering in the
	    Holocaust.  And, I think that his secondary goal was to show
	    that many of those repulsive attitudes have not changed over
	    the time in-between. That IS horrifying. That IS embarassing.

don feinberg

    re: .17
   

    Don, you took the words right out of my mouth (or fingers in this
    case).
    
    re: .16
    
    I don't wish to belabor this debate any further, but I want to point
    out that anti-semitism and it's often violent accompaniment, pogroms,
    etc., existed in Eastern Europe long before the Nazis came to power.
    My mother and her family were the sole survivors of their town in
    the Ukraine following a pogrom committed by native Ukrainians, not
    Nazis.  That's about the most personal example that I can give you.
    The Nazis didn't have to work too hard to find volunteers for the
    einsatzgruppen.
    
    I like to reemphasize the fact of righteous Gentiles that Don had
    mentioned in .16, that's a fact also.
    
    David

> 632.17 CURIE::FEINBERG
>
>		- Second, at the time, there _were_ people who DID DO a great
>		  deal, even though they could be called, as you want to say, 
>		  "powerless". In Israel, they're called the "Righteous 
>		  Gentiles". There were many such in Germany, Poland, the 
>		  Ukraine, Holland, and other countries. Despite what you
>		  want to call "powerlesness", they did manage to save quite a 
>		  few thousands of Jews.
>
>	    I don't think that Lanzmann DELIBERATELY "missed" this.  I think
>	    that, in Shoah, one of his primary intentions was to focus on very 
>	    direct, personal attitudes -- regardless of the the attitudes 
>	    of the governments -- as a major contributor to the suffering in the
>	    Holocaust.  And, I think that his secondary goal was to show
>	    that many of those repulsive attitudes have not changed over
>	    the time in-between. That IS horrifying. That IS embarassing.
>
	Don,

	Obviously there is no reason to explain why I felt shame after
	anti-Semitic responses of Lanzmann's interviewees. This is not
	a topic we need to discuss, as I know everybody is in agreement.

	Why am I disappointed with Mr.Lanzmann ? Because "Shoah" omitted
	the people "who DID DO a great deal" from his SELECTION into the
	movie. He does not show many Polish "Righteous Christians", does
	he ? Do you know that there were about 400 hours of interviews ?
	It is obviously his right as an artist to do what he wants with
	the material, but in my judgment a selection of 2% (~8 hours)
	of the WHOLE can be done so many DIFFERENT ways that it can
	support ANY statement about humanity... I therefore am not
	convinced that "Shoah" is an objective statement on "Witnesses
	to the Holocaust". It is NOT A DOCUMENT, and it should not be
	treated as such by people who have seen it.

	Why does it matter that "Shoah" forgets the Western allies ?
	The book that you mentioned is certainly not the only one that
	tells the truth about the Western democracies. But I was not
	complaining about the lack of sources for such information.
	The impact of any book is minimal compare to the impact of any
	movie, and especially a movie as powerful as "Shoah". That is
	exactly why I am so sensitive to not only what is IN "Shoah",
	but also to what is MISSING from it.

	Even though we both agree that some important names (like FDR)
	are missing from "Shoah", I think their omission WAS deliberate.
	It allowed Mr.Lanzmann to skip over the efforts of the Polish
	underground to alert the conscience of the World. Aren't such
	efforts reflecting on "very direct, personal attitudes" and
	thus worthy of showing too ?

	Do you know what President Roosevelt had to say to Jan Karski
	after he asked FDR what he should tell the Polish people now
	that the U.S. knew about the Holocaust ? He said "Tell them that
	we will WIN the war "! But this also is missing from "Shoah"...


		Piotr

    re: .19
   
    Unfortunately I can't agree with your argument that Lanzmann was
    obligated to include interviews with righteous Polish gentiles,
    he had his reasons for editing the film as he did.  The subject
    of rescue of Jews by righteous gentiles should be the subject of
    an entire film and should include interviews with gentiles from
    all over Europe, not just Poland.
    
    As for Jan Karski, I must say that he was a very unusual representative
    of the Polish underground.  The history of the polish home army
    is very checkered in regards to their relations to the Jewish people.
    
    David

After having seen the movie, I got the distinct impression that Mr.Lanzmann was
not out to make a documentary of the actions and consequences of the Polish
nation or the Western world at that time. I personally felt that he was
trying to capture in a very simple but effective way the attitudes of the
lay person in those areas - what they felt, why they felt so, what they did
and why they did those things.
	It seemed to me an [sadly] eloquent way of exposing to us all the
myraid reasons that the dastardly deeds could go on; and how little it 
affected those who did not care enough to let it affect them.
	And how little has changed, if any. Sadly!

	In that sense, I fail to understand why Mr.Lanzmann has to bear any
"shame" for omitting certain things. For he probably never set out to capture
those things. He was after the common man; not the Polish resistance, not
the "great powers". The common man; and how callous he can be.

thank you
-parthi

    Several asides:
    
    re. the book: "The Abandonment of the Jews" was written by David Wyman,
    Professor of History in ? (Harvard?). Since it would really shake up
    some dormant consciences, I'm afraid you'll never see it on the
    bestsellers list. As was said before, it is sickening to read it.
    Unbelievable, how cynically the decision was made on the death or life
    of millions of people.
    
    re. Polish Antisemitism: antisemitism is not a Polish invention, nor is
    it a Polish particularity. It exists everywhere and always has (as I
    was taught in a different topic of this conference). This includes the
    US of A. Without having seen the film, I'd forward my conviction that
    interviews of the sort described can be made anywhere in the world.
    You'll always find 'average' people who will tell you that they are
    anti-semites. As a matter of fact, the more literate and educated a
    person is, the less this person will be inclined to conform with
    anti-semitic views. 
    
    Furthermore, if it has been rightly said that righteous Gentiles
    existed everywhere, the opposite must be accepted, as well. If ONLY
    Polish persons with anti-semitic convictions have been heard, ONLY
    Polish Righteous Gentiles should have been interviewed, as well. This
    would have avoided the impression that anti-semitism is particularly
    strong in Poland. It might be, by the way, but should be presented
    more objectively, then.

I agree with Parthi, what it showed was WHO made such things possible. The Great Satans
whether it was at Wansee or elsewhere could not have made their sick plans into reality
where it not for an underlying mass of henchmen who MADE it happen. In this case they
found a ready supply of such s*b's, which certainly wsan't the case in Denmark!
          greg

    re. Denmark: it wasn't the case in Botswana, either. What is it
    that you're trying to say?
         

    As far as Wansee, there was a program on WGBH (Boston) last night in
    German with english subtitles about the meeting. Did anyone else catch
    it (I tuned in late and missed the beginning)?
    
    Eric

    re .24
    
    Botswana wasn't occupied by the Nazis, as far as I know;  Denmark
    was but the king and other leaders still resisted the anti-Jewish
    measures imposed on them.
    

Thanx Mr. Radwin, you saved me the reply 8^}
        greg

> 632.9 CHERSON
>    
>    Ok I'll accept that point, but how do you react to the local Pole's
>    responses in the movie Shoah?

	I would like to remind everybody the note that got us to switch
	the discussion to "Shoah". As you can see the original question
	posed to me by David, I can only interpret it as "but how do YOU
	react to... ". I STILL can only repeat what I said in .11, that
	"I react with great disappointment for BOTH him and Mr.Lanzmann".

> 632.23 GREG
>
> I agree with Parthi, what it showed was WHO made such things possible.
> The Great Satans whether it was at Wansee or elsewhere could not have
> made their sick plans into reality where it not for an underlying mass
> of henchmen who MADE it happen. In this case they found a ready supply
> of such s*b's, which certainly wsan't the case in Denmark!

	Now THIS note brings us BACK to the topic, which I repeat here:

	<<< Why the Germans Built the Death Camps in Poland ? >>>

	I watched the "Wannsee Conference" on TV last night and would
	like to get back to the real topic of this note. Here are the
	three transcripted excerpts from the minutes of that meeting
	that I found fundamentally important to this discussion, as
	they fully support what was presented in the base note 632.0:

********************************************************************************
********************************************************************************
Heydrich:
		(his right hand pointing to an area North of Kiev,
		 just behind the Eastern front)

	"To be brief, our task forces following hard on the heels of our
	troops have practically eliminated this concentration of Jews in
	one swoop. With some prodding, we used the anti-Semitism of the
	local population".
********************************************************************************
Race & Settlement Office representative:

	"Solving the Jewish problem is one thing. The reorganization of
	Europe is another. We're right in the middle. In Poland what has
	happened? Liquidations! Polish intelligentsia, teachers, clergy,
	nobility, etc... have been eliminated to a large extent. This
	will continue in cooperation with the local authorities. What is
	planned?

		1) Population exchange.

	Open up western Poland to 10 million Reich and repatriated
	Germans. The rest of Poland, ditto, for future German resettlement.

		2) Germanization.

	The Race and Settlement Office sorts Poles into four categories.
	The majority will vanish alongside the Jews. A minority will be
	used as a labor force for those construction projects with which
	the F�rer will imprint forever the stamp of German culture on
	the new Europe.

		3) Finally, annihilation.

	Birth control will strike at the roots of what's left so that
	they wither and die. Finis Poloniae..."
********************************************************************************
Hans Frank's representative:

	"I've already pointed out the problem. 2� million Polish ghetto
	Jews. Disease, crime. The Polish economy is threatened. Can't we
	attend to our Jews first? Few transport problems".

Heydrich:

	"Certainly. Polish Jews first".

Hans Frank's representative:

	"The Governor General will be pleased. We must try to avoid alarming
	the Polish population."

Heydrich:

	"It's a matter of camouflage and speed. We'll do a good job."

********************************************************************************
********************************************************************************

	Greg,

	Please be careful when you use such words as s*b's.
	Whom did you have in mind?

	As to the other readers, I hope to have provided some facts from
	which one should be able to understand why the Poles feel so hurt
	when people who never experienced what happened there make quick
	and emotional judgments...

		Piotr

re: < Note 632.25 by NSSG::FEINSMITH "I'm the NRA" >

>    As far as Wansee, there was a program on WGBH (Boston) last night in
>    German with english subtitles about the meeting. Did anyone else catch
>    it (I tuned in late and missed the beginning)?
    
	I knew it was coming, so I taped it (Beta only, sorry). I'll see it
	tonight.

	Also, there was a related program on WENH (?) last night about the
	March of the Living (?), which was a tour of, among other places,
	Auschwitz, Maidanek and Treblinka. Powerful stuff.

also eric

re: < Note 632.25 by NSSG::FEINSMITH "I'm the NRA" >

>    As far as Wansee, there was a program on WGBH (Boston) last night in
>    German with english subtitles about the meeting. Did anyone else catch
>    it (I tuned in late and missed the beginning)?
    
I also taped it, on VHS!  Send mail if you'd like to borrow...

Waky

Re. 28
>	Please be careful when you use such words as s*b's.
>	Whom did you have in mind?
I thought I was being extremely clear and careful, the s*b's I had/have in mind are the 
hundreds of thousands who not only collaborated but sometimes exceeded the germans in the
atrocities they committed. This did not by any means only include poles, but ukranians, latvians
etc...

>	As to the other readers, I hope to have provided some facts from
>	which one should be able to understand why the Poles feel so hurt
>	when people who never experienced what happened there make quick
>	and emotional judgments...
Gimme a break, my whole family on my father's side perished in Poland. There were several
countries which were invaded by the germans yet I doubt that you would have found the 
anti-semitism which was and continues unabatted in Poland.

That Poland was a victim of aggression is clear and beyond doubt, that a sizeable portion of
the population took advantage of the situation is also beyond historical doubt. Can you
explain the murder of dozens of Jews in the 1950's? As I recall the germans were kicked out
in 1944. But then perhaps they were just being loyal communists right?

I ain't saying YOU specifically, but don't cover this up under the guise of "gee folks, we all
suffered"!

    I see a HUGE rathole coming along... Busy days for Gavriel.

> 632.31 GREG
>
> I thought I was being extremely clear and careful, the s*b's I had/have in
> mind are the hundreds of thousands who not only collaborated but sometimes
> exceeded the germans in the atrocities they committed. This did not by any
> means only include poles, but ukranians, latvians etc...
>
	Please read Nechama Tec "When Light Pierced the Darkness -
	Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland" and then you
	might be less tempted to put all these nationalities into one
	basket. The Poles were NOT Nazi allies, there were NO Polish
	units fighting under Hitler. But most of the other nations in the
	region WERE (with the exception of the Czechs)! The cases when
	the Poles DID take advantage of the Jews cannot be discussed
	without including the Poles who RESCUED the Jews... You're wrong 
	when you say "hundreds of thousands" of collaborators, as this is
	NOT true for Poland. Where are your figures from ?

	As far as the number of Polish rescuers of Jews is concerned,
	their number IS documented, and is in THOUSANDS (see Nechama Tec)!

	You probably don't know it, but hundreds of Polish blackmailers of
	Jews, and other Poles who collaborated with the Germans (there were
	even a few Jews among them!) were executed by the Polish Home Army
	underground units for their crimes (read Nechama Tec)!

	If you read the few excerpts from the Wannsee Conference in .28 you
	might notice that Heydrich refers to the Ukraine when he mentions
	the cooperation of the local population in mass killings. As far
	as the Poles were concerned, not only were the Germans NOT planning
	on their cooperation in the Final Solution, they explicitly stated
	"avoid alarming the Polish population" and "[use] camouflage."
>
> Gimme a break, my whole family on my father's side perished in Poland. There
> were several countries which were invaded by the germans yet I doubt that you
> would have found the anti-semitism which was and continues unabatted in Poland.
>
	As one of the participants in this conference sadly remarked, there
	would be many finalists, if we tried to find the most anti-Semitic
	country in the World. Do you blame the Poles that your family died
	IN Poland ? Be more specific. There were MANY Jews that were killed
	in many OTHER countries that were invaded by the Germans. If you
	mention Denmark again, let me remind you that 3,000,000 Christian
	Poles died during the War. How many Danes were killed by the Nazis ?
>
> That Poland was a victim of aggression is clear and beyond doubt, that a
> sizeable portion of the population took advantage of the situation is also
> beyond historical doubt. Can you explain the murder of dozens of Jews in the
> 1950's? As I recall the germans were kicked out in 1944. But then perhaps they
> were just being loyal communists right?
>

	Greg,

	What murder in the 1950's ? What are you talking about ???
	Once again you are OFF the topic. Ever since I started this note,
	I have been trying to prove that the Germans did NOT include the
	attitude of the Poles towards the Jews when they decided to place
	the majority of the Death Camps on the Polish territory. CLEAR ?

	Please re-read the facts in the base note .0 and in the relevant
	excerpts from the Wannsee Conference (note .28). Then see if you
	have something pertinent to say on that topic. OK ? Or else please
	start off another topic... Be specific what you want to discuss.

		Piotr

    I think Greg is alluding to the anti-semitic "pogroms" which occurred
    AFTER the war in Poland. 
    
    I spent last Monday evening at the Young Israel of Brookline.  Rabbi
    Joseph Polak (the BU Hillel Rabbi who is also a survivor) spoke about
    his recent trip to Poland.   He spoke about the Polish tour guide who
    seemed to relish his descriptions and cold death statistics as he
    "guided" the group around Auschwitz.  Another survivor and Auschwitz
    alumnea was among the group and had to push the guide to take them to
    parts of the camp that showed example to the humanity of the Jews vs.
    parts of the camp that tended to dehumanize them.
    
    Rabbi Polak made mention of the Carmellite Convent that had been built
    on the site in utter disrespect and disregard  for the memory of the
    primary victims of that place and a special marker in the basement of
    one of the buildings memorializing a priest (who Rabbi Polak noted for
    his rabid anti-semitism) who died in the camp and has recently been
    beatified by Pope John-Paul.
    
    He also mention that for all intents and purposes Poland is
    "Judenrine".  The average age of the few hundred Jews of Poland is 75
    and that most had married gentiles.
    
    I'm certain that he will be writing and speaking more about this trip in the
    future.
    
    

< Note 632.28 by TALLIS::KOZIOL "Perestroika+Glasnost=Destroika" >

>	I watched the "Wannsee Conference" on TV last night and would
>	like to get back to the real topic of this note. Here are the
>	three transcripted excerpts from the minutes of that meeting
>	that I found fundamentally important to this discussion, as
>	they fully support what was presented in the base note 632.0:
 
    
    Point of information: 
    
    	Do you know, for sure, that the TV program was based on actual
    	transcripts of what was said at Wannsee?  My impression was
    	that only sanitized notes were kept of this conference, which
    	is one reason that its been difficult for historians    
    	to pin down the Nazi's decision to implement a "final solution." 
    
    	Unless the TV program faithfully mirrored the acutal conference,
        the excerpts you cite are irrelevant.

    re: .35
    
    Lucy Dawidowicz in "The War against the Jews 1933-1945" quotes the
    same statements as in the "Wannsee Conference" movie. As far as one
    can tell from the "atmosphere" during the meeting, the Germans were
    not very worried about "sanitizing" the transcripts. After all, if
    they were afraid of what was said then, wouldn't they be even more
    afraid of what was about to get DONE ???
    
    If you have any doubts, maybe you can learn something directly from
    the historical advisor of the "Wannsee Conference" movie. This was
    Professor Shlomo Aronson from the University of Jerusalem.
    
    	Piotr

reply to: Note 632.36 by TALLIS::KOZIOL 

>    Lucy Dawidowicz in "The War against the Jews 1933-1945" quotes the
>    same statements as in the "Wannsee Conference" movie. As far as one
>    can tell from the "atmosphere" during the meeting, the Germans were
>    not very worried about "sanitizing" the transcripts. After all, if
>    they were afraid of what was said then, wouldn't they be even more
>    afraid of what was about to get DONE ???
>    
	Did you, by any chance, hear the interview of Lucy Davidowicz
	that was aired on "All Things Considered" this afternoon?  She
	spoke for a while about the incredible depth and extent of indigeneous
	anti-semitism in Poland. I wish I could post that interview 
	in here!  

	One specific comment I cannot forget was: she was so
	certain of the virulence of the anti-semitism of the Poles in
	all walks of life -- including doctors, lawyers, etc. -- that
	she believes firmly that the Polish Jews would have been murdered
	by the Poles in 1939 onward, quite independent of anything
	the Germans would have done, or did. The interviewer asked 
	pointedly if she didn't think that the more educated Poles
	would have been less Anti-semitic.  She emphatically replied
	"No" -- that most Poles received their lessons in anti-semitism
	from the day of their birth, and that formal education had
	little to do with it. She (eyewitness) recounts incidents such
	as medical students, in their medical clothing, participating in 
	violent demonstrations against Jews.

	This was one of those segments from A-T-C that really
	rivets you to the radio (for example, "Children of Nazis").
	What she had to say was quite upsetting, to say the least.

	[She went to Vilna in 1938 - 1939 (!) to study and record the 
	 Jewish culture of the time in Poland. She has just released
	 a new book, "From That Place And Time...", studying the
	 destruction of the Jewish community there.]

	Next best thing:  I will order a transcript or a cassette
	from NPR tomorrow morning.

don feinberg

>	You probably don't know it, but hundreds of Polish blackmailers of
>	Jews, and other Poles who collaborated with the Germans (there were
>	even a few Jews among them!) were executed by the Polish Home Army
>	underground units for their crimes (read Nechama Tec)!

They were probably excecuted more for collaborating with the Germans than for betraying Jews

>	What murder in the 1950's ? What are you talking about ???
>	Once again you are OFF the topic. Ever since I started this note,
>	I have been trying to prove that the Germans did NOT include the
>	attitude of the Poles towards the Jews when they decided to place
>	the majority of the Death Camps on the Polish territory. CLEAR ?

WHAT murders? I'd suggest a history refresher course. As was stated by Mr. Feinberg, I beleive,
pogroms existed in Poland BEFORE the Germans got there and after they left.

As to the 3 million Poles who died, a great many died at the hands of the Russian bear, not 
least was the misleading of the polish communist resistance who was left to die whilst the
Russians watched...

I would agree that the REASON of *why* the camps were put there was to keep it out of the
spotlights of the international community (not that these people {FDR, Churchill...} concerned
themselves much with the problem once they knew) more than with whether the Poles were
anti-semitic. 

On the more global topic (rathole) of Polish attitudes towards Jews, one can't but draw one's
conclusions after seeing Shoah and the interviews with the Poles they showed in the villages
which used to be primarily jewish before the war, and which are now Judenrein. That there were
hundreds of Righteous Gentiles in Poland can be seen at Yad Vashem, that there were thousands 
of others...

    You know the more this debate gets dragged out, the less cheshek
    I have for participating in it.  
    
    I just want to make one more comment and that is about the Polish
    Home Army.  They did not have such a brave and illustrious history
    (at least in regards to anti-semitism) as theo and others would
    have us believe.  Yes they did fight the Nazis, but I wouldn't put
    them on a par with Tito's partisans or the Maquis in France.
    
    David

    Why is it that nobody responding here references anything prior
    to 1939?
    
    Piotr, I am sorry to say that there is indeed a long history of
    Anti-Semitism in Poland. But it is not uniquely Polish. It Coincides
    with the equally vehement hatred in the Ukraine and other Slavic
    territories commonly refered to as the PALE (Pale of Settlement).
    
    The creation of the Pale hundreds of years ago by the Russian Tzar
    created much of the modern era anti-semitism in this region. 
    
    The Pale basically formed an arc, starting around (what is now)
    central Poland, sweeping south and east through the Ukraine.
    The Tzar proclaimed that Jews were (with a few exceptions) only
    allowed to live within the Pale, and forced resettlements took place.
    Further, the Russian aristocracy decided that although Jews were
    not allowed to own land, they were well fit to manage it, and serve
    as agents. Quite simply, the Jew became "the messenger we all love
    to shoot". The peasants (serfs) in this area could not strike back
    at the Boyars (aristocrats), but could easily reach the Jews, who
    collected the rents, the taxes, etc. 
    I know the above may seem very simplistic, but it is the way it
    happened.
    Without going into it (potential rat-hole) in depth, during this
    era, the Russian Church was not above anti-semitic statements/actions.
    
    I think everyone in this discussion has to look art the long term
    history of the region to understand the more recent history.
    
    Note: To those Jews who have heard tales of the "old country" from
    family members who lived through progroms, were the progrom-niks
    referred to as Poles? Ukranians?....How about COSSAKS?
    
    Rich

    re .38
    
    Please try to use 80 col width. Now to the business.
    
    You and some others exhibit a simplistic view of the overall East
    European issue of anti-semitism. Not everything is black and white. No
    anti-semitic violence or acts can be justified. None. However, the Jews
    in E.Europe have not always been foresighted enough to do their best in
    trying to resolve ethnic problems. For example, consider the case of
    the Ukrainian Jews. They tended to side with the stronger power in the
    region: either Poles or Russians, both of whom, exhibited anti-semitic
    behavior to a significant extent. This could not have possibly improved
    Ukr.-Jewish relatioins. In other examples, the anti-semitic behavior in
    the Polish-Ukr. region was less based on ethnic hatred and more on
    class relations (read .40 also for a more detailed discussion).  
    
    Don't get me wrong, the Jews did not choose to be money lenders and
    merchants (as primarily visible to poor peasants). But this was the
    perception of ignorant peasants in the region. Ignorance is not an
    excuse for violance, I reiterate. The point is that the majority of the
    Poles and Ukr-s were also in the less than perfect position to apply
    logic to the situation (read .40 again).
    
    As to refresher course in history. You will benefit from one too.
    
    Did you know that during Khmelnitsky's war for Ukrainian independence
    from Poland, the retreating Polish armies evacuated and thus saved
    thousands of Jews from the advancing Cossack armies?
    
    Did you know that during the Russian Civil war 1918-21 most of the
    pograms and other anti-semitic acts were perpetrated by Russians,
    not Ukrainians? 
    
    Did you know that the much hated Petlyura was not an anti-semite, and
    that Zhabotinsky and Petlyura have conducted successful negotioations
    regarding improvoment of Jewish-Ukr. relations? Much of the atrocities
    against Jews were pinned on Petlyura by Communists who had to discredit
    Ukr. movement for independence.
    
    Did you know that a political union of Jewish parties and Polish
    Socialists won important victories in some major minicipal elections
    in 1938?

    You also exhibit historic ignorance in suggesting that among 
>    the 3 million Poles who died, a great many died at the hands of
>    the Russian bear 
    It is true that Soviets killed thousands (less than 100K) of Poles 
    for various political reasons, and never ethnic reasons like those
    pursued by the Nazis.
    . . .
    
    Yes, there was and there is anti-semitism among Poles/Ukr./Russ-s.
    But, I repeat, not everything is black and white. We must consider
    our goals. Are we going to say that anti-semitism in E. Europe (the
    subject area) is eternal, and pogroms will happen again and will
    never stop? If so, this whole discussion is worthless. Or are we
    going to assume an iota of hope that the situation will imporve?
    If so, everybody needs to do more to learn from the past and to
    understand all points of view.
    
    Eli Weisel(sp) said that he is not in a position to judge, and much
    less prosecute (perhaps implying that only G-d is). But he is a
    witness. I think that he meant that optimistically. Am Israel has
    not simply survived through millenia to find contentment in (be it
    justified) finger pointing.
    
    Alex
    
            

    Perhaps this is not the most appropriate place for this but...
    
    
    I have just finished a book called "Why the Jews?", by Prager and
    Telushkin. It describes in some detail why the authors believe Jews
    have been hated through time, starting before Egypt. I would recommend
    this book to anyone who would like a better understanding of
    Jew-hatred. It has histories of all the major historic events and
    movements (Christianity, Islam, enlightenment, etc.), and includes
    chapters on the Nazi and post war era, and it has copious references
    and footnotes. All in all, one of the best books on the subject I have
    ever seen. Without giving the entire book away, the bottom line is that
    the authors believe all of the common excuses for Jew-hatred (money
    lending, etc) have nothing to do with it. It is simply a case of people
    hating Jews, and finding a reason to support it. The book is in
    paperback, and should be easy to obtain (I got it a Walden). 
    
    Jack 

> 632.37 FEINBERG
>	Did you, by any chance, hear the interview of Lucy Davidowicz
>	...
>	she believes firmly that the Polish Jews would have been murdered
>	by the Poles in 1939 onward, quite independent of anything
>	the Germans would have done, or did. The interviewer asked 
>
	Don,

	The Jews in Poland did NOT feel they were in imminent physical
	danger from the POLES. How else can one explain that anti-Semitism
	there didn't cause exodus ? When Lucy Dawidowicz concludes from HER
	impressions what was about to happen, she only speculates, and such
	"extrapolation" makes NOT a good historical analysis tool. I firmly
	believe that quantifiable facts steer discussions away from ratholes.
	I therefore would like to supply you with a few facts that disprove
	this emotional remark by Lucy Dawidowicz (I doubt she as a historian
	would ever want to put it in writing).

	I would like to quote from "The War against the Jews 1933-1945"
	the figures for Jewish emigration from:

	GERMANY 1933-1939	300,000 of   500,000 total, or	60.0%
	AUSTRIA 1938-1939	126,000 of   185,000 total, or	68.1%

	As there are no emigration figures for Poland there (she mentions
	the "official government policy of <<evacuating>> the Jews from
	Poland"), I got my figures from the Polish Statistical Yearbook
	of 1939. Obviously 1939 is missing, as Poland ceased to exist...
	On the other hand it includes 1931-1932 Great Depression years,
	so it errs on the high side for the sake of above comparisons.

	POLAND  1931-1938	168,600 of 3,300,000 total, or	 5.1%

	Americans like the expression of "voting" with one's feet.
	Above "voting" FACTS contradict Lucy Dawidowicz's BELIEFS...
>
> 632.38 GREG
> They were probably excecuted more for collaborating with the Germans
> than for betraying Jews

	Greg,

	All I can say is please read Nechama Tec. Stop SPECULATING...
>
> 632.39 CHERSON
>    I just want to make one more comment and that is about the Polish
>    Home Army.  They did not have such a brave and illustrious history
>    (at least in regards to anti-semitism) as theo and others would
>    have us believe.  Yes they did fight the Nazis, but I wouldn't put
>    them on a par with Tito's partisans or the Maquis in France.

	Dave,

	The Polish Home Army was a mass organization, numbering several
	hundreds of thousands. As a matter of fact, it was the most
	powerful underground force in all of German-occupied Europe.
	Even the Communists admit it numbered up to 350,000 fighters.
	With ANY organization of this size one could find instances when
	a particular fighter might have been of anti-Semitic persuasion.
	And there were OTHER underground organizations outside of the
	Polish Government-in-Exile's control, representing the extreme
	left and right fringes...
>
> 632.40 HORWITZ
>    I think everyone in this discussion has to look at the long term
>    history of the region to understand the more recent history.
>    
	Rich,

	Thank you. And let me remind others that the history of Poland
	does not easily yield to over-simplifications...
>
> 632.41 ALLISTER
>    Did you know that during Khmelnitsky's war for Ukrainian independence
>    from Poland, the retreating Polish armies evacuated and thus saved
>    thousands of Jews from the advancing Cossack armies?

	When Chmielnicki besieged the city of Lvov, he issued an
	ultimatum to its Polish defenders to give his troops gold AND
	the Jews who fled the massacres and were now protected there.
	The city refused and saved the Jews. Chmielnicki went away...
>    
>    Did you know that a political union of Jewish parties and Polish
>    Socialists won important victories in some major minicipal elections
>    in 1938?

	You refer to a coalition of the Socialists with Bund and some
	Jewish parties of the left. There were probably as many Jewish
	political parties in pre-1939 Poland's parliament as there are
	now different parties in Israel !!!

>    Yes, there was and there is anti-semitism among Poles/Ukr./Russ-s.
>    But, I repeat, not everything is black and white. We must consider
>    our goals. Are we going to say that anti-semitism in E. Europe (the
>    subject area) is eternal, and pogroms will happen again and will
>    never stop? If so, this whole discussion is worthless. Or are we
>    going to assume an iota of hope that the situation will imporve?
>    If so, everybody needs to do more to learn from the past and to
>    understand all points of view.
>    
	Alex,

	I couldn't be more in agreement. I would also like to emphasize
	the value of first-hand experience. But even this is too often
	colored by one's DESIRED interpretation...

	In my understanding, prejudice is like another biblical sword:
	"who fights with a sword, dies from a sword." And we can help
	ourselves only if we understand each other's experiences. Our
	own are NOT enough...

	Piotr

    re: emigration figures
    
    I'm sorry Theo, but comparing emigration figures from Germany to
    that of Poland does not wash with me.  Germany went one step further
    than the Poles in forcing it's Jews to emigrate, while Polish Jews
    were faced with various prohibitions, but not that.  You're taking
    a certain historical trait of our people (remaining in the burning
    house until your clothes catch on fire) and using to prove the goodwill
    of the pre-war Polish gov't.
    
    David

    re. endemic anti-semitism:
    
    Mind taking that back? I'm a living proof of the opposite, in all
    modesty.
    
    Chris

    I'd like to mention that a "living proof" is no proof at all.  Having
    lived in the Soviet Union for 30 years I know about strong
    anti-Semitism in the Ukraine first hand.  My friend's brothers were
    given away to the Nazis by their Ukrainian wives and were killed.  On
    the other hand in 1942 my father was saved from the Nazis by people in 
    a Ukrainian village.  The whole village knew about a hiding Jew and
    nobody said a word to the Germans.  What do these examples prove?

    Leo Simon