Conference taveng::bagels

    As was eloquently said in the base note, if we lose one Jew because
    of rigid rules, we have lost all of the future generations from
    that root. It is impossible to not have change in a changing world
    unless you are isolated from interacting with the rest of the world.
    The Jewish faith must evolve as the world around it evolves, if
    it to survive. Stead fast rigidity may be able to maintain the identity
    of some small groups, but it causes lossed on the whole. 
    
    Religion is a belief that an individual holds, and if following
    that belief is made too rigid, then we loose that individual forever.
    True, those that remain may obey the "Letter of the Law" as it was
    written in ancient times, but their numbers will shrink over time
    (or at best, remain stagnent). What will remain is a small core,
    who are isolated.
    
    The Conservative and Reform movements, especially in the United
    States, are alive and thriving in many areas. To the ULTRA-ORTHODOX
    in Israel, they may not be "Jews", but in these movements, Jewish
    life is alive. 
    
    Is it any surprise that the refusal of the Catholic Church to change
    has cost them many members. Civilization will change, and so will
    those in that civilization. Religion must be able to follow suit,
    or it will also be left by the road side.
    
    No group has the devine right to decide who is a Jew or what makes
    one properly Jewish. That decision belongs to the individual, be he(or 
    she) Orthodox, Conservative, or Reformed.
    
    Eric

    This is guaranteed to be a dangerous flame topic, so I'll dance
    carefully.  I really suggest that those who wish to argue the
    relative merits of the various Jewish sects should go to usenet's
    soc.culture.jewish, where things are hot and heavy.
    
    One comment, though.  I really think that all four major branches
    of Judaism, and some of the smaller ones (Hasidim), are perfectly
    valid interpretations of the Jewish tradition.  What's called
    "Orthodox" is basically a snapshot of 18th century European rabbinical
    thought, carrying on a particular Halachic tradition.  What's called
    "Reform" is a movement begun in the early 19th century to get away
    from what were perceived as excesses in Halacha.  What's called
    "Conservative" is a 20th century American movement to maintain much
    of the flavor of Orthodoxy without the rigidity.  The Chasidic
    movements stemmed from an earlier break with what had become normative
    practices in Eastern Europe, maintaining Halacha rigidly but changing
    the style of worship and some practices.  (Reconstructionism broke
    off of Conservative, somewhere, but I don't know much more.)
    
    Any of those can be viewed as valid.  Neither is assimilationist.
    It's common slander to label non-observance as "Reform", but that's
    not true.
    
    Personally, I see strictly-observant Orthodoxy as being the Jewish
    equivalent of monasticism.  The Roman church takes its
    "religious" (clergy, monks, nuns, etc.) out of the community at
    large, or at least prevents them from having family life or private
    economic life.  If one wishes to become correspondingly religious
    in Judaism, one still works and has a family, but may become very
    observant.  In both cases, traditions and observances are carried
    on through the religious core.  The rest of the "lay" community
    partakes of the religion to a somewhat lesser degree.
    
    So the very-observant Orthodox are in a sense doing a service by
    preserving tradition, but that doesn't discredit the rest of the
    community.  We can't all be cloistered to remain believers.
         fred

    RE: .2
    
    Why is there a sense that "Orthodox" Jews are "cliostered"? That's
    the same kind of slander that "equates Reform with non-observance".
    
    "Orthodoxy" is not monolithic.  Just come to the shul of the Bostoner
    Rebbe and see the various types of people there.  Some in Shtreilmels,
    some in Black hats, some in knit kippas, some in Shaitles(wigs), some
    in techeils(scarves), and some in hats.  Then try to guess who is a
    rabbi, teacher, physician, lawyer, phyiscist, homemaker, hacker,
    dentist, journalist, author, real estate broker, etc.  None of them are
    18th century peasants living in a "snapshot" of the world as it was.
    The majority are university gradutes---alumni of Harvard, Yale,
    Princeton, Columbia, MIT, Yeshiva University, BU, etc.  Granted that
    some communities do not value secular education as much, but to brand
    "Orthodoxy" as rigid and unchanging is disingenuous.  
    
    The base note raises some important issues.  Which definitions of
    Jewish behavior and thought will promote continuation of Judaism?
    
    When I was becoming "religious" I was not told to take on all the
    mitzvot at once.  I was free to begin with some and add on as I
    progressed in my learning and understanding and belief.  It was
    a growth process not an overnight "conversion".  The important thing
    was to take my Judaism seriously...to see it as a basis of my life
    and purpose.  After a couple of years of taking small steps, I took
    "the plunge" and moved into a supportive community that shared and
    lived these Jewish values.  The important lesson I have learned
    is that I shouldn't be complacent...satisfied with my level of
    understanding and observance.  I should continue to learn more,
    understand more, and live more Jewishly.  As long as my children
    see me praying with enthusiasm, celebrating Shabbos as the most
    important day of the week, approaching the world as if there really
    were a G-d who has communicated with our forefathers/mothers and
    is continually and actively involved in the universe , and observing
    the mitzvot that have preserved us for over 3000 years, I have no
    fear of the disappearence of Judaism.
    
    ---Av
    
    

    RE: .3, I respect your belief, all that I ask is that you respect
    mine. I don't condemn you, so don't condemn me (this is figurative,
    not directed at you personally). My Father's family was Orthodox
    (from Boro Park in Brooklyn) and my parents are Conservative from
    Long Island. I don't try to impose my will on them, and expect the
    same in return. How one believes is a personal thing and no one
    else has the right to try to change that or impose their will, or
    define for that individual what he should or shouldn't do as far
    as belief.
    
    Eric

I'm somewhat suprised that the list of "branches of Judaism" was exclusively
Ashkenazic.  I would suspect that, because of the waves of immigration
into Israel from North Africa and the Arab countries, there ought to be
a significant Sephardic element in Judaism.

Martin.

      How about the Havurah movement?  I believe that this movement
      has the potential to greatly deepen commitment to Judaism.
            
      Our Havurah meets Friday nights for Kabbalat Shabbat, followed by
      dinner, followed by zimmerot. 
      
      
      Some of the benefits are:
      
      - The members of the Havurah are like an extended family.   
      - Services are highly participator and equalitarian, so that 
      everybody has a chance to learn or lead the services if he or 
      she cares to.
      - People think about the group during the week, they bring in 
      inspirational readings to share, or new melodies.  
      - Occasionally the group tries new activities such as community passover
      sedar, havdalah and first night of hannukah, Tu B'Shevat Sedar,
      etc.                                                
      
      The Havurah offers a learning experience with a warm intimate
      feeling.  The net result is deeper and more meaningful
      commitment.  The Havurah experience is significantly different
      from that offered by the typical synagogue and I believe it offers a
      closeness that is much appreciated in today's world and not
      typically available through large congregations.                  
      
      Since the Havurah only meets for Kabbalat Shabbat, all Havurah
      members also belong to synagogues (Conservative).  
      
      --Julian
      

    re:.6
    Havurah is not a branch/sect, it is a method of organization and
    worship.  You may belong to a Havurah and be, say, Conservative
    (which seems to be the biggest into Havurot, I think) at the same
    time.  Hence no conflict.  And my understanding of the Sepharidic
    community is that its religious organizations are pretty close in
    observance to the Ashkenaz Orthodox.
    
    re:.3
    I didn't mean that religious Jews are cloistered.  Religious members
    of some other faiths are cloistered.  Very observant Orthodox Jews
    are the equivalent of these cloistered members of other faiths:
    They carry on a tradition, may represent an important core of the
    faithful (sort of the spine), but aren't the only legitemate members
    of the religion -- the non-cloistered (Catholic) and non-Frum (Jewish)
    members represent the rest of the body.  They are complementary;
    neither represents the whole picture.  Is that clearer?

	I have been told that I have a Jewish nose. Does that mean that 
if this law is passed, that only my nose can go to Israel and live as a 
Jew. Also what about my Moyel's handiwork. Will that also be able to live as 
an Israeli Jew.

.5>   I'm somewhat suprised that the list of "branches of Judaism" was
.5>   exclusively Ashkenazic.

This is one area where we Ashkenazim could learn from Sephardi tradition.
Some Sephardim are more observant than others, of course, but they generally
have not tried to split their communities along lines of religious practice.
Even the Sephardi haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) politicians in Israel today, who
have picked up a number of bad habits from their Ashkenzai counterparts,
try to get support from all Sephardim, not just religious ones.

    What's better/best for the Yehudim is to have people living their lives
    as actively committed Jews, regardless of their sectarian
    identification.  I am not as worried about the active Jews I encounter
    (although I may get worked up about some of my differences with them!),
    as the ones that are indifferent. 
    
    Within my own extended family, I have representatives of most parts of
    the Jewish spectrum.  I have watched cousins brought up one way, decide
    to choose another (Jewish) path; I have seen some follow their parents'
    lead, and some (from both observant and non-observant homes) opt out.
    I have also seen spouses who were not born Jewish opt in, and in some
    cases show much more commitment than the one they married.
    
    So far, there seems to have been a net gain, but it will be another
    generation (at least) before we will know for sure.
    
    					Aaron 

    I davened with the Sephardic Congregation of Greater Boston for
    several years until my recent move to the suburbs.  The Sephardic
    siddurs are quite different from Ashkenazie siddurs.  They also
    vary with branches of Sephardim:  Syrian (no translation), Egyptian,
    Spanish-Portuguese (lovely translation), etc.  And the services:
    there is a blessing by the Cohenim every Shabbat.  The music is
    completely different.  In fact, people from different countries
    would fight over melodies by starting different ones -- whoever
    was the loudest prevailed.  Also, many Yeminites davened here because
    the service was more similar to their tradition than were Ashkenazie
    services.  As someone mentioned, there is much more tolerence of
    various personal religious practices within the congregation.      
    
    The Sephardic laws for Kashrut vary somewhat (they won't eat fish
    any dairy product, for example) from Ashkenazie traditions.  There
    are some other very obscure laws about wheat which only the most
    religious Sephardim follow.  These people won't eat wheat harvested
    after Rosh Hashonah between Passover and the subsequent Rosh Hashonah.
    (I'm not sure of the algorithm.)  
    
    I would find it quite hard to lump these traditions with Ashkenazie
    traditions.                                             

    The "obscure wheat tradition" is also followed by some Ashkenazim.
     It concerns wheat that is termed "Yoshon"--and is related to the
    time of harvest.  I don't follow it myself and don't know all the
    particulars---but it is a stringency known throughout traditional
    Judaism.
    
    ---Av