Conference taveng::bagels

Driving *to* Shabbat dinner shouldn't be a problem; why don't you ask your
guests to bring sleeping bags and something to read while waiting for your
cholent to be served?

Martin.

    I believe that most of the commentaries (rishonim as well as achronim)
    have basically viewed the Commandment of "Hochiach Tochiach Et
    Amitecha" (Admonish indeed admonish your friend) on two levels.
    
    One level is a personal level -- one to one -- in which case the
    admonishment should be done only if the admonished will heed to
    the admonishment. In fact most agree that in most cases (with the
    exception of a major Torah transgression punishable by death of
    Bet Din) it is better to leave a person in a state of trangession
    by "shogaeg" (accident or ignorance) rather than admonishing him
    and then transforming his status to "mazid" (premeditated) where
    there is good reason to assume that the person will continue to
    trangress. 
    
    I would interject that with regard to your "non observant" friends
    I don't believe that their behaviour would come under the category
    that would necessarily require admonishment since in most instances
    Bet Din would not give a death penalty. Their status (at least
    currently) is special. This is referred to as "tinok shenishba bein
    haakum" (literally a baby who has ben kidnapped by heathens) which
    means that they cannot really be held responsible for what they
    are doing since their environment has not bestowed upon them the
    knowledge or understanding to act better. I don't know how this
    would relate to whether or not inviting them for Shabbat would be
    "lifnei iveir" or "misayaa bidvar avera" (helping one to transgress),
    and especially when the results of such an invitation could be
    most gratifying, but if you really want to get a "psak" that you
    can rely upon, I would suggest asking someone slightly more
    authoritative than Shlomo Riskin. I personally would ask Rav Aharon
    Lichtenstein, but in your case that may be somewhat difficult.
    
    Another level is a more general public level. This level is not
    aimed at any particular person or even group of persons per se.
    The idea being that an Observant Jew should express his/her basic
    discontent with regard to mass trangression of commandments. I believe
    that the Ultra Orthodox Sabbath Demonstrations would fall under
    this category (mentioned only for illustration and not for comment).
    
    Cb.
    
    
    

    
    Thanks Chaim, that was exactly the stuff I was looking for.  Could
    you point me to where I can find the "Hochiach Tochiach" and "Tinok
    SheNishba" stuff specifically?
    
    I'm not shopping for a new psak, but I would like to learn/relearn
    this; I may try to talk the friends in question into learning it
    with me!  Thanks again, /Fern

    Fern,
    
    I'm not a Talmud scholar, far from it.  However I believe that
    somewhere deep down in the Talmud we would find an equivalence for
    "the end justifies the means"(now I want to stress that I would
    NOT generalize this to all situations).  I had more observant friends
    that had invited me for Shabbat, and they knew that I was driving
    there and would drive back home during Shabbat, however that did
    not constitute a "bitool haazmana", a cancellation of the invitation,
    on their part.  For them the bond of friendship with me was strong
    enough to overrule any Talmudic injunction in their minds.
    
    I am always guided by the principle that one's moral and religious
    beliefs are purely subjective and cannot be prescribed to others.
    Well at least now you know why the Agudat Israel and I will never
    see eye to eye (:-).
    
    David

    The book "Jewish Law" by Louis Jacobs contains a reference to the
    verse "..nor put a stumbling block before the blind." (Leviticus
    19:11-14).  It doesn't directly relate to your question, but it
    also cites a source (Siphra on Leviticus 19:11-14) as the basis
    for his discussion.
    
    "The Siphra argues that the verse ['...nor put a stumbling-block
    before the blind'] can be extended to anyone who is blind to a mistake
    he is making.  He should not be encouraged to persist in his mistake."
    
    In dealing with participation in "Shabbat Shalom, Boston**" the
    Orthodox community has taken a stand on this very issue.  Orthodox
    synagogues will not sponsor SSB services because it would require (or
    encourage, or silently endorse, perhaps) that participants drive to
    shul.  One could argue that SSB provides connection to Judaism, and may
    encourage people to become active on their own, it also encourages
    Shabbat transgressions.  [DISCLAIMER: This info comes to me
    second-hand, but it sounds pretty much on target to me.] 
    
    Conservative synagogues do participate even though many people would
    be in violation of the Conservative responsa permitting
    driving on Shabbat.
    
    
    
    ** Shabbat Shalom, Boston is a program of monthly Friday evening
       services co-sponsored by the Synagogue Council and one synagogue
       per month.  They're targeted for singles aged 25-40 and draw
       300-1000 people per service.

    Fern,
    
    I'll try to give you a few pointers, and you'll have to take it
    from there:
    
    For "Hochaach Tochiach":
    
    Yivamot 65b (look in Rashi)
    Baba Mitsia 31a
    Erchin 16b
    
    Maimonides, Mishne Torah, Hilchot Dayot Ch. 6 Halacha 7
    
    "Tinok Shenishba" is harder to track down and I don't have a direct
    pointer to it yet. I believe though that it is mentioned in Shabbat
    and Yoma.
    
    Cb.
    
    

    
    Thanks all, Chaim especially for the sources!  If I track down anything
    exciting I'll tell all.  /Fern