Conference taveng::bagels

>Baruch Atoh Adonoi elohaynu melech ho'olam, Asher kiddishahnu b'mitzvoh
>tsov, vitzivahnu, l'hadlik ner shel Chanukah.
>
>Baruch Atoh Adonoi elohaynu melech ho'olam, sh'hichiahnu v'chimahnu
>v'higianhu lahzmahn hazeh  (this is the one I think I have *really* wrong)
>
>Baruch Atoh Adonoi elohaynu melech ho'olam, sh'oso neesim l'avosaynu
>b'yormim horhaym bahzmahn hazeh.

Anita,

You have the order wrong.  You have them in the order 1,3,2.  After the
first night only say 1 & 2.

You also have some of the transliteration wrong.  I will put them in with
Sephardic pronunciation.  I will capitalize "t" where it would be "s"
and "a" where it would be "aw" or "o" in Ashkenazic pronunciation.  "ei"
will be used for the long a sound.  I will also use the ha-shem and
elokeinu substitutions.

Baruch atAh hashem elokeinu melech hA-olam, asher kiddishanu b'mitvoTAv,
v'tzivAnu, l'hadlik ner shel Chanukah.

Baruch atAh hashem elokeinu melech hA-olam, sheAsA nisim lavoTeinu
bayamim hahem bazman hazeh.

Baruch atAh ha-shem elokeinu melech hA-olam, shehechianu, v'kiamanu,
v'higianu lazman hazeh.

Chag Chanukah Sameach
Gavriel

	This leads   me   to   the  questions  of  the  origins  of  the
    pronunciation of "tet" as "s" by certain people in shul.  Anyone?

< Note 412.2 by DIEHRD::MAHLER "Mordecai ben Moshe" >

    It's "tav" and "sav" not "tet".  "Sav" is the Ashkenazic pronunciation
    of "tav" without the dot in the middle.  I have no idea where the
    shift originated.  The vowel shifts are much easier to explain since
    they are very slight.

    Gavriel

    It depends on who taught them to read Hebrew.  Since the Sephardic
    pronunciation is used in Israel, most Hebrew teachers are teaching
    that now (eg, my mother-in-law), but most American Jews are of
    Ashkenazic descent and learned the Ashkenazic pronunciation.  Some
    groups seem to think that the Sephardic pronunciation is somehow
    not legitimate and make a big deal of teaching the Ashkenazic -
    my (Orthodox rabbi, very strict) brother-in-law (that is, one of
    the brother's of Paul's sister's husband -- not very related to
    me!) teaches this, but I have never asked him to explain why he
    feels this way.  This is the same one who boils the parts of his
    telephone to kasher it for Passover (in case there should be crumbs
    inside! - he EVEN maanaged to put it back together again in working
    order, eventually, the first time he did this...), so I don't think
    it is worhtwhile to cause a stir by asking, since no good is likely
    to come of it.  I don't know where the pronunciation as "th"instead
    came from - usually seen in the English names of Hebrew placenames,
    such as "Beth-El", "Bethlehem", and so on - maybe someone knows.

>    to come of it.  I don't know where the pronunciation as "th"instead
>    came from - usually seen in the English names of Hebrew placenames,
>    such as "Beth-El", "Bethlehem", and so on - maybe someone knows.

    Many european languages pronounce "th" as a soft t rather than either
    of the English variants.  I would suspect that the spelling of
    place of these place names (and the Hebrew word "bet" in general)
    became standardized before entry into English.

    I was curious which "tav" comes up more frequently has "th" than
    "tet", which is related to the Greek "theta".

    Gavriel

    
    <tet, which is related to the Greek 'theta.'
    
    In fact, it can be argued that most of the Greek alphabet seems
    to derive from the Hebrew, although linguists have been battling
    out this one for years.  Indeed, there are certain similarities
    between Greek and Hebrew that do not exist between Greek and English,
    for example, the alphabetic sequence: aleph, bet, gimel corresponding
    to alpha, beta, gama.
    
    The similarities become still more striking in a comparison of the
    physical form of the ancient Greek and Hebrew letters.  It's impossible
    to demonstrate this effectively on a computer screen, but many of
    the old Greek letters look like Hebrew letters turned on their sides
    or upside down.  I believe one of the reason for this may be the
    old Greek custom of writing in 'boustrephedon', or, 'as the ox plows.'
    That is, instead of writing right to left or left to right, they
    alternated directions for each line of text, (like an ox plows a
    field, first moving right to left, then left to right.)  Makes it
    darn difficult to read, but goes a long way towards explaining how
    the Greek alphabet may very well be descended from the Hebrew alphabet,
    and not from Phoenician as linguists have long suspected.

< Note 412.6 by CADSYS::REISS "Fern Alyza Reiss" >

    The current printed Hebrew alephbet is not the original.  The one
    used today is Aramaic.  Hebrew script is closer to the original than
    the printed.  The Aramaic alephbet had a one-to-one coorespondence
    of letters (not sure of pronunciation, maybe the Ashkenazic vs.
    Sephardic came from this).

    I read somewhere that the Phoenician alphabet derived from the
    Hebrew/Aramaic and the Greek from it.

    Gavriel

                    -< and speaking of language transfers >-

    
    <tet, which is related to the Greek 'theta.'
    
    In fact, it can be argued that most of the Greek alphabet seems
    to derive from the Hebrew, although linguists have been battling
    out this one for years.  Indeed, there are certain similarities
    between Greek and Hebrew that do not exist between Greek and English,
    for example, the alphabetic sequence: aleph, bet, gimel corresponding
    to alpha, beta, gama.
    
    The similarities become still more striking in a comparison of the
    physical form of the ancient Greek and Hebrew letters.  It's impossible
    to demonstrate this effectively on a computer screen, but many of
    the old Greek letters look like Hebrew letters turned on their sides
    or upside down.  I believe one of the reason for this may be the
    old Greek custom of writing in 'boustrephedon', or, 'as the ox plows.'
    That is, instead of writing right to left or left to right, they
    alternated directions for each line of text, (like an ox plows a
    field, first moving right to left, then left to right.)  Makes it
    darn difficult to read, but goes a long way towards explaining how
    the Greek alphabet may very well be descended from the Hebrew alphabet,
    and not from Phoenician as linguists have long suspected.

    Pronunciation also depends on whether you were taught Modern 
    ot Traditional Hebrew.  I was taught with the former, so 'th'
    tends to be pronounced with a hard 't'.  Blame this one on the
    Williamsbridge Jewish Center in the Bronx.
    
    Anita

    
    While we're talking nets, does anyone know anything about this new
    Kesher Net?  Does DEC have it?  And how do we get it?  Thanks in
    advance, --Fern Alyza

< Note 412.9 by CADSYS::REISS "Fern Alyza Reiss" >
>    While we're talking nets, does anyone know anything about this new
>    Kesher Net?  Does DEC have it?  And how do we get it?  Thanks in
>    advance, --Fern Alyza

    As far as I can tell, KESHER NET is a bulletin board system.  You
    can dial in with any terminal and absorb info.  I am not sure how
    you post to it.  There were phone numbers posted recently which I
    can dig up if you want.  There is some stuff from KESHER getting
    through to soc.culture.jewish (I think manually  8^{).

    Gavriel