Conference taveng::bagels

    > We were comfortable standing when everyone rose and sitting when they
    > sat. Yet, we were uncomfortable with kneeling and we didn't, but I'm
    > not sure I could say why.
   
    > we expected our non-Jewish friends to wear yamulkes during our wedding
    > service, and when we have them over for religious holidays (Pesach, in
    > particular) we expect them to participate in our traditions. 
    
    > but I want to respect them and their beliefs as well.  
    
    Interesting thought.  I share your views here. I will not kneel
    or cross myself in a church, but expect non-Jews to cover their
    heads in a Temple or at my Seder or during the lighting of
    the Chanukah candles or during the recitation of Shabbat Kiddush.
    I even expect Christians who visit in my home not to bring non-kosher
    foods.
    
    It is theologically inappropriate for Jews to kneel or cross
    themselves, while there is nothing theologically wrong with a Christian
    from covering their heads.  In fact the Pope, and other members
    of the church's hierarchy cover their heads.  It is much easier
    for Christians to feel comfortable doing "Jewish" things than for
    Jews to do "Christian" things as Christianity is based on Judaism.
    While Christians will eat kosher foods in my home, I will not eat
    non-kosher in theirs.
    
    Interesting discussion!
    
    
    

    
    
    	I don't expect other people to follow the traditions and beliefs
    that I follow and I would hope they would feel the same about me.
    
    	Interestingly enough, my roomate asked if he could put up a
    Xmas tree in our apartment and if it would make me feel uncomfortable.

    	My reply was that it would have if he did not ask and I respected
    the fact that he respected my opinion.  What else can I ask for
    when so many people have such little respect I really thought it
    was great of him to ask me that...
    
    
    

>    How far should Jews go in observing/respecting the practices of
>    other religions? Recently, and not for the first time, my wife and 
>    I attended a church (Catholic) wedding of some friends.  We were 
>    comfortable standing when everyone rose and sitting when they sat.
>    Yet, we were uncomfortable with kneeling and we didn't, but I'm not
>    sure I could say why.

    Jewish services do contain much sitting and standing.  These are actions
    with which it is easy to be comfortable.  Jewish services normally do
    not contain any kneeling or prostration (certain exceptions at Yom Kippur).
    Therefore, there is a natural discomfort with kneeling.

    Kneeling might also be taken as active participation in the service which
    is inappropriate.  Some authorities hold that kneeling in a Christian
    Church may be taken as prostrating yourself before an idol (please no
    flames from christians who might read this).

    Sitting while others are kneeling is a discrete way of dealing with this.

>                           Similarly, I've had dinner at the home of
>    gentile friends who hold hands and say grace before meals. I'm never 
>    quite comfortable, but I want to respect them and their beliefs as well.
    
    My opinion, join in but request that grace not specifically mention
    Jesus.

>    On the other side of the proverbial coin, we expected our non-Jewish
>    friends to wear yamulkes during our wedding service, and when we
>    have them over for religious holidays (Pesach, in particular) we
>    expect them to participate in our traditions.

    Covering of your head in a synagogue is a sign of respect for God and
    for the traditions of the people present.  Just as wearing your best
    clothes, etc. would be.  The visiting friends should be asked to do
    this.  They would not be asked to put on tallit or tefillin.  These
    are active participation in the service.

    That of course brings up the question of taking your hat off in their
    church, but I'm not going to deal with that   8^{).

    It is interesting that some authorities recommend against non-jewish
    presence at the Seder.  This is because there are many references to
    God trouncing our enemies and these might be misunderstood.
    
>    Be interested in what others think about these two related matters:
>    how we should act in churches, and what we can reasonably expect from 
>    non-Jews attending Schul or home-based ceremonies?

    Hope that helps.  Some of the issues about what should be asked of
    a gentile visiting jewish religious services are covered in "To Pray
    as a Jew" by Rabbi Chaim HaLevi Donin.  Further information on my
    sources may take a while as I don't remember where I heard or read
    them  8^{).

    Gavriel    

    I've never been at a service where there was kneeling, but I wouldn't
    feel at all comfortable with it.  I've been to church services, and
    rarely felt too out-of-place.  My husband, on the other hand, feels
    very uncomfortable with the synagogue, even reform.  The fact that he
    can't understand the Hebrew bugs him; even worse are all the references
    which make it clear that "We're special and you're not."
    
    When we visit his family, they say grace before every meal.  In school,
    I often ate at the homes of friends whose families said grace, and it
    never occurred to me to do anything but sit there quietly.  If they
    joined hands, so did I.  My family never said a grace, although at
    summer camp we did sing Ha Motzi.  I think as long as all that's asked
    is expression of respect for the traditions of others, there's no
    problem.  For me to cover my head in a church doesn't go against any
    Jewish teachings I'm aware of; the same should go for a non-Jewish
    male.  If it did, I would expect him to stay out of any synagogue in
    which it was required.
    

    
    Mind if I stick a Christian Gentile viewpoint in here ?
    
    I would have no problem with covering my head in a synagogue (I
    have in the past) as I see it as paying respect to G-D.
    
    The kneeling problem I've not heard of before. Maybe someone could
    explain to me via mail (don't want to get off the subject) why kneeling
    is not done ? FWIW I don't always kneel in church. It's not compulsory.
    I just do it when the pews are big enough to do it without breaking
    any bones (being over 6' 4" is awkward in churches where the pews
    are invariably made for people of 5' :-) ).
    
    I would never ask a Jewish person to cross himself or take communion,
    or say the creeds, in fact anything which would compromise his faith.
    As a previous note said, it is easier for Christians to do Jewish
    things than the other way round as we see Christianity as the
    fulfillment of Judaism. (Please no-one take offence at that).
    
    As for grace. Well, if I had Jewish friends round for a meal, I
    firstly would make sure that there was no non-kosher food there,
    and secondly I would say grace, but would not mention Jesus. I would
    simply thank G-D for all of His good gifts and blessings. No problem
    that I can see there.
    
    Thanks for taking the time to listen, and may G-D richly bless you
    all.
    
    Paul V

Another Christian view...

Just as there are different slices of the Jewish faith, there are different 
slices of the Christian faith.  One of the slices is the Catholic faith, 
and they do kneel and pray... I happen to be Southern Baptist, and we do 
not kneel and pray.  What I would like to bring out is that it is my 
understanding that the Jewish faith is based after the Old Testament, and 
even in the Old Testament, Noah kneeled before the presence of God when being 
given the Ten Commandments.  There are many other instances of people 
kneeling in the Old Testament.  Can you honestly say if you were to come 
face to face with God (and we will sooner or later!), that you will not 
kneel before him with reverence and respect and or just plain awe? I mean 
it doesn't matter to me if you want to kneel or not, even _I_ do not kneel 
when I go to a catholic church, but to say you don't do it because you 
{feel in the blanks here}, or to infer that followers of God did not in the 
Bible doesn't seem to be totally right to me.

One noter mentioned not wanting to take communion, in my faith, a Jewish 
person would not be allowed to, as communion is the remembrance of the 
Lords Last Supper.  We say "This do in remembrance of me"... The Jewish 
faith does not have the same remembrance as we as Christians do. We as 
Southern Baptists can not even take the Lords Supper until we have publicly
announced our profession of faith. Again, different slices of the 
Christian faith see this differently, as I am sure different slices of the 
Jewish faith will see this differently.

As to saying grace before meals.  All grace is, is asking God to bless the 
food that we are eating, and thanking him for allowing us to have this food 
to eat.  Without him, we would not have food to place in our bodies to do 
his work, and we are thanking him for this gift. Again some slices of the 
Christian religion thank Jesus, but most thank God or Jesus, or a 
combination.  If you look at it as thanking for a gift, you might find 
yourself a little more comfortable with saying grace.  I regularly have a 
Jewish friend over for meals. We always say grace.

What disturbed me a little with one noter was that they (s/he?) said, 
"I want my non-Jewish friends to observe ALL my customs, etc, but I don't 
want to observe theirs"... seems a little one-sided to me...  There is a 
saying in the New Testament, that no matter what religion you adhere to is 
good to follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...  If you 
want people to follow you in your home, and your church/synagogue, then you 
should give them that same respect.  If I went to a Jewish service, I would 
do as they did, or not make it obvious that I wasn't if I was 
uncomfortable. I think you can do the same thing in a Christian service.
If going to a wedding really upsets you, then I would rather hear, I can't 
come to the wedding because your views are different than mine, but I will 
be glad to come to your reception afterwards, or would be happy to take you 
and your new wife/husband out to dinner for a private celebration.

We are all Gods Children, as the nursery song say "Red, and Yellow, black 
and white, we are previous in his sight"... maybe we should remember that.

Gale

    A little bit of history might help to put this in perspective.  Jews
    have, through the centuries, sometimes been required to perform various
    rituals which went against their beliefs in what was proper.  It's true 
    that we should show respect, but I think the kneeling *in a Church*
    could be taken as worshipping a false G_d; the images being worshipped
    are Jesus and Mary.  It goes beyond therespectful silence.  I don't
    think communion is an issue -- as you said, only a Christian should
    partake.  A Catholic friend has assured me that my taking communion in
    his church would be highly inappropriate (as in sacreligious).
    
    Beverly
    

    Re: 407.6
    
    When Judiasm was first starting, idolatry was the big religion.
    Jews were/are taught not to bow down to man or idol, only to God.
    And, of course not to make sacrifices to idols.
    
    This has been an important teaching.  As we come into Chanukah
    (slight diversion - HAPPY CHANUKAH everyone!) we are reminded of
    the story of Hanna and her sons who perished because they would
    not even give the illusion of bowing.
    
    Do Jews bow to the Lord?  Yes, particularly during the Aleinu prayer.
    On Yom Kippur many religious jews do not only bow, they prostrate
    themselves.
    
    To many Jews, kneeling is bowing, and a Church service is not the
    proper time nor place to do so.
    
    As far as grace before meals, the standard Jewish ritual is to have
    some bread, preceded with a prayer which is usually translated as
    "Blessed art though O Lord our God, king of the universe, who bringeth
    forth bread from the earth."  Not very different from "We thank
    God for this food...", and, I think, not offensive to most Jews.
    
    (Noah knelt when he received the 10 commandments??? Um...)
    
    				Paul
    

    RE: .8 Oops make that Moses... I'm sorry... argh!...
    Thats for the prayer tanslation, it is a beautiful prayer...
     
    Also, Just a little nit, that doesn't belong here, but I _need_
    to say it, not all slices of Christian Religion pray/whatever to
    Mary.  I _believe_ (but could be wrong), that it is only the Catholic
    religion that does that... I know the Southern Baptist don't, but
    we don't kneel in church either...
    
    Happy Chanukah tomorrow...
    
    Gale   

    In reply to .6:
    
    In my opinion, based on what I remember from my Jewish education,
    there are acts that we are prohibited from doing (i.e. eating unkosher
    food, bowing before idols, etc.). I, as a Jew would feel uncomfortable
    doing any of these things when participating in a service of another's
    faith.  However, there are other things that we are not prohibited
    from doing that might be part of anothers religous service.  Those
    things would not present a problem for me as a Jew.  So the distinction
    is - I will not do what is prohibited of me, but I would consider
    doing those things which are not prohibited.
    
    Another point:  You quoted something like "Do unto others as you
    would have them do unto you."  The actual quote is similar but not
    exactly that.  However, it is NOT from the New Testament.  It was
    written by Rabbi Hillel.
    

	Hear HERE!  I  was  going  to  point out the same thing and this
    wouldn't  be  the  first  time that the New Testament was claimed as
    being the "original" supplier of Old Testament concepts.

    
.11>    Another point:  You quoted something like "Do unto others as you
.11>    would have them do unto you."  The actual quote is similar but not
.11>    exactly that.  However, it is NOT from the New Testament.  It was
.11>    written by Rabbi Hillel.
    
    I don't doubt that Rabbi Hillel did say it.  I am extremely glad
    he did....  How old is Rabbi Hillel?... I ask because I _really_
    don't know him or his name, so don't know if he is a living Rabbi,
    or a deceased Rabbi.  I do know that in the New Testament, that
    the Christians do read, there is a book called Matthew.. The Jewish
    nature of Matthew's Gospel may suggest that is was written in
    Palestine, though many think it may have originated in Syrian Antioch.
    Some have argued on the basis of its Jewish characteristics that
    it was written in the early church period, possibly the early part
    of A.D 50, when the church was largely Jewish and the gospel was
    preached to Jews only.  However, those who have concluded that both
    Matthew and Luke (both Apostles) drew extensively from Marks's Gospel
    date it later -- after the Gospel of Mark had been in circulation
    for a period of time.  Accordingly, some feel that Matthew would
    have been written in the late 50s or 60s.  Others, who assume that
    Mark was written bewtween 65 and 70, place Matthew in the 70s or
    even later.
    
    I typed in that history, only becuase I don't know who came first,
    the book of Matthew that those of the Christian fatih read, or the
    Rabbi you mentioned... In Matthew, it is written:
    
    "So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do to
    you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12)
    
    Either way, I still think its a wonderful guideline to live by,
    and I'm glad tht BOTH Jewish Rabbi's and Christian Preachers BOTH
    urge people to live by it...
    
    Gale who can now Now I can say Happy Chauanak!

< Note 407.13 by BUSY::KLEINBERGER "Have a MAXCIMum Day!" >

    Gale

    Hillel predates Jesus ben Joseph.

    When asked by a gentile to describe Judaism while standing on one
    foot, he replied, "Do not unto others that which is abhorent to you.
    The rest is commentary.  Go and learn."

    Gavriel

    
    
    	Yeah, and Merry Chtimastsa to you!
    
    
    

    I keep telling Bob that no matter how hard I try, I ALWAYS mis-spell
    something...
    
    sorry Michael...
    
    G

Interesting topic, and I empathize with your concerns. May I add my 
Christian viewpoints?

Kneeling in prayer is a practice of great antiquity, and an invocation
for G-d to bless [II Chron. 6:13, Psalms 95:6, Dan. 6:10]. It is shown 
as an act of worship in I Kings 8:54, 19:18]. Kneeling signifies the 
giving or receiving of a blessing [ref. benediction of the priest to 
the people in Lev. 9:22, 23]. The term 'bend the knee' is used of
men blessing G-d [Gen 24:48, I Kings 1:48], and of G-d blessing men
[Num. 23:20]

Now, after all that, let me say that not all churches practice this
tradition [as has been pointed out in previous replies]. My church does 
not, but but I have been in churches that do.

Obviously, I have no problem with this because of the meaning of 
the act, as mentioned above. I don't think G-d really cares whether 
we kneel,  stand or sit, because He can see the heart attitude in which 
we approach Him. If you were in a church and failed to kneel when
everyone else does, and if you are concerned about how others would
perceive this, be assured they would most likely assume you are of another 
denomination  where kneeling is not the practice. Or, they would figure 
you have a bad knee. No big deal to most people. They would not be offended.
                                                                            
However, you might be interested to know that even a Christian can
feel uncomfortable in some churches. For example, I have attended
Catholic services, but would be most uncomfortable in any invocation
of of Mary...the traditions and practices of the Roman Catholic church
is the only one I would be really concerned about. This is not meant 
as a criticism of Catholicism. It's just that there are such big 
differences in my doctrinal beliefs. I suppose Jews might feel
about Christian services somewhat the way I feel about Catholic services.

Someone mentioned that it is easier for a Christian to be comfortable
participating in Jewish services because our faith has its roots in
Judaism. This is very true, but Christians who don't appreciate that
would still feel uncomfortable. I'm glad to see that there is such
exchange of sharing occurring between the two groups, since understanding
one another is so important.

The more I learn about Judaism, the more I realize it would be a joy to 
participate in Jewish services. Observing your customs and traditions is 
a sign of respect, but can also be a sign of *identification*. I can see 
where such identification, on a very personal level, is possible for a 
Christian who has a Jewish 'heart'. 

As to 'grace' or prayer at mealtime, if I had a Jewish guest I would
consider it an honor to have him say the prayer over the meal [which
would be kosher, of course...even if I had to buy a new set of dishes!! ;-)]

Know that some churches are not hung up on traditions and ceremonies,
and that their people sometimes represent many different denominations.
They are, in most cases, aware of the different religious customs and
traditions, and are not bothered by the observance or lack thereof in
some of them.

One final point: if it is any comfort to you, remember that we worship 
one and the same G-d. We do not, at least in my church, pray to Jesus, or
Mary, or anyone *but* G-d.

BTW, happy Chanukah. I bought donuts yesterday! 

Love,
Irena                                          

    Several non-Jews mentioned that they would place a Kipah on their
    heads out of respect for G-d.  I think that wearing it out of respect
    for the members of the congregation would be more correct.  If they're
    doing it out of respect for G-d, then which G-d are they respecting?
    Ours or theirs?   Or maybe they think we believe in the same G-d?
    

    re: 407.18 by DSSDEV::MOR
    
    Shalom,
    
    I agree that they should do it out of respect for the congregation.
    But that does not rule out respect for G-d also.
    
    You say,
    
    >If they're doing it out of respect for G-d, then which G-d are
    >they respecting? Ours or theirs? Or maybe they think we believe
    >in the same G-d?
     
    Christians and Jews **don't** believe in the same G-d? Or, are you
    just referring to non-Jews [rather than Christians].
    
    I hope so, otherwise you're going to blow my belief system to 
    smithereens.  ;-)
    
    Irena
    
    

    
.18    >If they're doing it out of respect for G-d, then which G-d are
.18    >they respecting? Ours or theirs? Or maybe they think we believe
.18    >in the same G-d?
    
    	HUH??????????? I am dating a Jewish person....  I have Jewish
    friends.... We have often talked about the Jewsih Faith versus my
    christian faith.  I have been involved with Jews For Jesus...  I
    have tried to make it part of my research to learn as much as possible
    not only for my sake but for Bob's sake....
    
    I don't see where you are coming from.... Your God is OUR God !!!!
    There is only one God the Father.... I don't care what faith or
    non faith you are.... You don't acknowledge that Jesus is God's
    son... You acknowledge that there is a man given birth by Mary called
    Jesus, but Jesus is NOT God the Father... only God is that...
    {I could go into the Diety here, but am afraid it would only confuse
    you}
    
    I am extremely sad to see that you believe that he is not...
    
    Gale
     
    
    
    

>    Christians and Jews **don't** believe in the same G-d? Or, are you
>    just referring to non-Jews [rather than Christians].

    Irena,

    There is some theological debate over whether Christians and Jews
    believe in the same G-d.  Modern popular thinking is that we
    believe in the same G-d, but Jews think that Christians got some of
    the concepts wrong  8^{) (and visa-versa).

    It is certainly showing respect for the congregation and its norms
    for showing respect for G-d.  It should also be the visitor showing
    respect for G-d.  (Even a pagan could believe in and show respect
    for our G-d, just adding him to the pantheon of dieties he respects  8^{).
    but that is a topic for the RELIGION conference).

    I would certainly not want you to dynamite your belief system  8^{).
    
    Gavriel

    
    Yeah, I would wear the head gear (how do you spell Yamulka ??) as
    it is deemed as showing proper respect to the Lord. So, in a way
    I am doing it for the rest of the congregation, but more importantly
    as I worship the Lord, then I'm showing repsect to Him in a way
    that the congregation can understand and accept. If I only did it
    for the rest of the synagogue then I am putting man's desires above
    the Lord's.
    
    The Lord I believe in is the same one that gave those marvellous
    promises to Abraham. The one who so blessed David. We both (Jews
    and myself) believe in Messiah, only I believe him to have come
    already.
    
    Thanks for a great topic, and I hope no-one minds me butting in
    like this.
    
    Shalom,
    Paul V
    
    ps I found out the other night just HOW full a word shalom is. And
    I thought it only meant 'peace'.

>    how do you spell Yamulka ?

    Yarmulke.  It's a Yiddish word, I have read that it came originally from
    Turkish.

    Gavriel

    Kipah is the Hebrew word as mentioned in another reply.

    Can I ask a favor?  Can we have a "breakdown" of the differences
    between:

	    Christian
	    Catholic
	    Roman Catholic
	    Protestant
	    
    Or do you tell by the size of the family?  8-}

    
    ok, as I understand it to be, here goes ;
    
    Christian :- one who believes in Jesus as Christ and who has accepted
    	 	 Jesus into their lives as their personal saviour. The
    		 emphasis is on a personal relationship rather than
    		 one where you just 'go through the motions'.
    
    Catholic  :- Two meanings. Firstly, the common term for Roman Catholic,
    		 (see below), secondly, (I may be wrong on this one)
    		 it is an adjective used to describe the Church as a
    		 whole. I can't remember the exact meaning of the word
    		 in this context. But, as an example, we have a sentence
    		 in the Church Of England (protestant) which professes
    		 "one holy catholic and apostolic church".
    
    Roman Catholic :- The denomination headed by the pope. Different
    		      from other denominations in that it puts a slightly
    		      difference on Mary, advocates praying to the saints,
    		      has the confession system to name a few differences.
    
    Protestant :- The other denominations which are not Roman Catholic.
    		  Started by Luther, but now has many branches such
    		  as Anglican (Episcopal in the US), Baptist, Methodist,
    		  Church Of God, Elim Pentecostals, United Reform Church,
    		  Quaker, Bretheren, fundamentalist (?), etc etc.
    
    A person is generally regarded as 'belonging' to one of these faiths.
    People say they are Roman Catholic because their parents were, or
    because they have only ever gone to Catholic churches. Similarly,
    people call themselves C of E (Church Of England) because it's
    traditional.
    I suppose, it's taking on a similar face as being 'Jewish'. You
    are Jewish because you were born that way. You are C of E because
    you were born to 'C of E' parents and were baptised in a C of E
    church. Many Catholics and Protestants no more believe in G-d than
    many Jews do. It sounds silly, but there are atheist Anglicans around.
    I know because I was one of them. Before I became a Christian, I
    still used to go to church on Christmas day. It's largely down to
    tradition.
    
    So a Christian, in the scrictest biblical sense, (using New Testament
    too here) is one who believes on Jesus as Lord. They truly believe
    in the God of the Old Testament (Tanakh ?) as the one who created
    the universe, made a covenant with Israel and fulfilled it through
    Jesus of Nazareth.
    
    To me, as a Christian (using the above definition), the fact that
    I am an Anglican is secondary. I do not restrict myself to Anglican
    churches. I often visit some of the freer churches like the Elims.
    I sometimes go into Catholic churches when with Catholic relatives.
    
    To a true Christian, the denomination he belongs to is secondary
    to his personal faith in the Lord.
    
    Does this help ?
    
    Paul V

    Christian = Catholic or Protestant or (Eastern) Orthodox or Coptic

    Catholic = Roman Catholic

    Orthodox = Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox

    Protestant = Groups which split off from Catholic during or after
		 "The Reformation" because of doctrinal disagreements.
		 includes but not limited to
		    Lutheran
		    Episcopalian (Church of England)
		    Presbyterian (Spin off of CofE)
		    Methodist (Spin off of CofE I think)
		    Baptist (I believe a later spin off?)

    You can also (arguably) add to the Christian list:
	Mormon
	Jehovah's Witness

I was under the impression that the Church of England split from the
Roman Catholic Church was independent of (and predated) Martin Luther.

Regarding an earlier discussion, it is interesting to note that the
Christian interpretation of the Golden Rule is positive: "Do good."
while the Jewish interpretation is negative "Do not do harm" (to
simplify somewhat!)

One of the things that confuse me when attending a different denomination
(whether it be Christian or Jewish) is how to balance my own religious
requirements against my need to be a proper guest.

Your suggestions are welcome.

Martin.

    re:.17-.19,.22,etc.,
    Christians like to say that they believe in the same diety as Jews,
    but who are they to say that?  They may _think_ so, but who's going
    to prove it?
    
    I personally disagree and think that Christianity has simply
    plagiarized many Hebrew texts and concepts while building a
    fundamentally unrelated religion.  Christianity grew out of Hellenic
    paganism when a half-Hellene, half-Hebrew named Saul of Tarsus told
    some tales about a fellow named Yeshua bar Yosef (in Aramaic, which
    was the local tongue) which sounded real neat to the Hellenes. 
    
    re:.25 (I think)
    The word "catholic" means "universal"; note the following quote
    from a telecom newsletter story:
    
    	The OSI payoff is, literally, a truly catholic (small "c") means
    	of data communications.  It has room for everyone to talk to
    	everyone else...

    Thus the Roman Catholic church claims to be the "one universal church",
    as do many other christian denominations. 
    
    There are, however, "national" religions which are part of a people's
    culture and not intended for export, though some have become
    missionarized at times.  These include Shinto (Japan), Anglican 
    (British Empire), Druze (greater Golan), Jewish (Hebrew people),
    and many "native" religions.  Personally I'm a lot more comfortable
    around a non-missionary neo-Pagan than around a Christian who deep
    down wants to convert me and the rest of my people.
          fred

    
    	OSI?  I thought the Pope would use Packets?
    
    	8-}
    
    

    
    re.28
    
    One thing, Saul of Tarsus was in fact a hardline pharisee and was
    a dedicated Christian persecutor. He actively involved himself in
    the stoning and persecution of the first Christians. It wasn't until
    later that he was converted to the faith on the road to Damascus.
    
    Paul V

    re: .20
    
    Sorry,  I didn't mean to upset you or anything.  It's just that I
    really don't see how Christians and Jews can beleive in the same G-d.
    You say that your G-d is the one that delevired the Torah to Moses
    on Har (Mount) Sinai.  Fine by me.  But then why don't Christians/
    Catholics observe the 600 and something mitzvot passed down at that
    time?  Why don't they have the same traditions as us?  When you pray, you
    pray to Jesus.  To you, Jesus is God, or part of God.  I don't beleive
    in Jesus.  How could you say that we believe in the same G-d?  You
    might tell me that we both believe in monotheism, or that our religions
    share some basic principles.  That's correct.  But to tell me that we
    are praying to the same G-d, I must disagree.  I guess that's why
    I'm not a member of "Jews for Jesus."
    
    Once again, no intention to spark any contreversy.
    

    .31
    
    Think of it as only a routing problem. I believe what is being said
    is that the message sent is eventually received in its original form
    with no changes.

    Re.30
    
    A significant part of Jesus's message was that he was to free men
    from the law (Torah).  Therefore Christians do not need to follow
    the miztvot to be faithfull to their religious beliefs.  In fact,
    one might argue that they are doing a service to the message and
    ideals of Jesus by practicing Jewish ritual.
    
    WS

    Re: "Do Jews and Christians believe in the same god?"
    
    Jews belive in one god.
    
    Christians believe in one god.

    Either:
    
    1.  They both believe in the same god.
    
    2.  They are both wrong.
    
    				Paul
                           
    

    Re. 34
    
      We're starting to dwell away from the original topic, but that's
    OK, this stuff is interesting.  If you'de like, I could cite a few
    lines from the Old Testament that clearly say that G-d's laws will
    **NEVER** be changed.  In fact, it clearly states that there would
    be times when G-d would **TEST** our faith in him - an individual (Jesus,
    for example) would appear to have many powers and would try to change
    certain laws.  So, I believe that Jesus probably did do all of
    those miracles, etc., but that we were just being tested by G-d.
    

    re:.35
    
    Maybe not both wrong.  Some of the Bible's implications are that
    the Hebrew God was better than the Pagan gods.  There's only one
    that counts to us, but if they define their god as, say, a bullfrog
    named Fred (as do, apparently, a significant portion of the Anglophone
    population), then they have theirs and we have ours.
         fred (not the one who says "ribit")

Re: .28 
    
Regarding Saul of Tarsus [Paul the Apostle]. I think your remarks were a 
bit harsh although I can understand the sentiments behind them. The Jews
did not always fare well in a Hellenized world.

If you know more about Paul than I do [which seems to produce a different 
perspective from mine] I would be interested in hearing the historical 
facts behind your comments.

We know, from history, that Paul held dual citizenship. He was a Jew
and a Roman citizen; that he was of the tribe of Benjamin [if I recall
correctly], a student of Hillel, and a Pharisee who knew the law well. 

From the time of Alexander on, the world was Hellenized. Greek culture
and thought permeated both Jewish and Gentile life. During this time, 
the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into 'koine', the common Greek 
language by Jewish scholars [producing the Septuagint].

In fact, historians report that Jews also used this language to bring the
knowledge of the one true G-d to the Gentiles of that world.

It was into this world that Paul went to preach the Gospel message.
Paul was familiar with Greek philosophy. He used the koine language and 
drew analogies based on Greek thought and philosophy to make the message 
more readily understandable to the Gentiles. However, let's be fair and 
remember that Greek philosophy was not the **source** of the message 
Paul preached. He disagreed strongly with much of the philosophy
itself.

Re .27 about differences between us in interpretation  of the golden rule, 
with the Jewish emphasis on the negative...'do no harm'. 

Not all Christians interpret it in the positive, as you might think. At 
least, not this one. Put it down to cultural differences if you want, but 
my traditional upbringing always taught 'do no harm' ['old world' Baltic 
culture].
Re: .36 
    
The Old Testament also states that God promised to make a New Covenant
May I just mention that Jesus did not come to cancel the law. He said
he came to fulfill it. He could keep it all perfectly, which man is
unable to do.     
    
In general:
        
Rabbi Goldman says Christians and Jews tend to forget that each group is 
pluralistic. Judaism teaches individuality, as does Christianity, and
thinking that "all Jews are alike" or "all Christians are alike" does
a disservice to both. Discussions such as this topic are an opportunity
to learn of the differences, and the entries on denominational differences
hopefully add to this understanding.

I happend to catch Rabbi Alex J. Goldman [Conservative] on the Charlie 
Rose program this morning. The Rabbi is promoting a book, but I failed to 
get the title of it...they discussed several interesting topics, among  
them the Old Testament and the New Testament [sorry, I know you don't 
like those terms, but other than "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant", which
I'm sure is no better for you, I don't have any other way to refer to 
these two portions of scripture]. 

Rabbi Goldman said he finds the majority of the New Testament to be 
drawn from the Old Testament, and says he gains new insights from reading
it. Frequently, he will draw from the NT concepts to elaborate on OT
scripture and the message he prepares for a particular service.

I mention the above in support of the commonly accepted cohesiveness and 
unity of these two portions of scripture. Christianity is not such a 
strange departure as to make you seriously believe that more than one
G-d is being worshipped, or that we do not worship the same G-d. Your
Bible [what we call the Old Testament] is very much a part of our lives
and continued teaching, modified only by the revelation we believe G-d
gave in His manifestation of Himself on earth through the one we call
Messiah (Christ). 

I'm encouraged to read that there is a growing interest in the historical 
person of Jesus in recent Judaism, even to the point of some scholars to 
"bring Jesus home to Judaism." Some are prepared to grant Jesus a place of 
honor among the righteous and the teachers of Israel.
 
I think that misuderstandings that exist are largely passed on and
perpetuated without understanding their origins. This can produce insecurity 
and confusion for those of you who attend a Christian service, or who have 
friends visit a Jewish service. Personal study, non-threatening discussion 
and open sharing is the way to dispel confusion and arrive at a place where 
*you* feel comfortable, based on your own relationship with G-d. 
                
Re: .35
    
Thanks. I like the way your mind works! '-)
    
I think that any doubts of the commonality of our G-d can be put to
bed with the following words of Shalom ben-Chorin: "The faith of Jesus
units us, faith in Jesus separates us."


Thanks for all your thoughts on this teriffic topic!
  
Irena

        
          
    

>>    . . . not all slices of Christian Religion pray/whatever to
>>    Mary.  I _believe_ (but could be wrong), that it is only the Catholic
>>    religion that does that... I know the Southern Baptist don't.
    
    I realize that Mary (and the multitudinous Saints) are a primarily
    Catholic focus.  The Lutheran Church, in which my husband was raised,
    has some very strong opinions about Catholics because of this.  
    
    In my earlier note, I said:
    
>>    . . . I think the kneeling *in a Church*could be taken as worshipping
>>   a false G_d; the images being worshipped are Jesus and Mary.  
    
    The assumption was that we were still talking about Catholics, as in
    the original wedding discussion.  As you point out, very few other
    Christian sects frequently, if ever, kneel.
    
    Beverly
    

>>    Yeah, I would wear the head gear (how do you spell Yamulka ??) as
>>    it is deemed as showing proper respect to the Lord. So, in a way
>>    I am doing it for the rest of the congregation, but more importantly
>>    as I worship the Lord, then I'm showing repsect to Him in a way
>>    that the congregation can understand and accept. If I only did it
>>    for the rest of the synagogue then I am putting man's desires above
>>    the Lord's.
>>    
>>    The Lord I believe in is the same one that gave those marvellous
>>    promises to Abraham. The one who so blessed David. We both (Jews
>>    and myself) believe in Messiah, only I believe him to have come
>>    already.
    
    If you believe that covering your head is an appropriate wayto show
    respect to G_d, then why don't you do it whenever you are in a house
    of worship?  If you believe your Lord would be pleased by it, why do
    it only in a synagogue?  Since you believe that Jesus' arrival and
    teachings overrule the Torah, you must believe that it is no longer
    necessary for men to cover their heads.  
    
    The reason I would cover my head in a Church where women were expected
    to do so would be out of respect for the members of the congregation,
    not as a form of worship.
    
    Beverly
    

reply to < Note 407.40 by RSTS32::KASPER "Calm Down! It's Only 1's and 0's!" >
>>    If you believe that covering your head is an appropriate wayto show
>>    respect to G_d, then why don't you do it whenever you are in a house
>>    of worship?  If you believe your Lord would be pleased by it, why do
>>    it only in a synagogue?  

	This is a source of "discussion" in the Jewish community....
	It may be hard to understand, since I don't think that there's
	a parallel kind of situation in the non-Jewish world.

	[I wear a kippah all the time (obviously not sleeping, showering,
	etc. :-)  :-) ).  So does my son.]

	It is, I think, a difficult issue for some Jews. I think that
	some (Jewish) people understand wearing a kippah outside of the shul
	as a sign of "frum"-ness (frum ~= Yiddish for observant of Jewish
	religious law).  To tell the truth, they are generally worn in the 
	shul, er, well, because they're generally worn in the shul, and that
	that is the custom (and because the Rabbi would say something...).

	Many Jews have told me that wearing the kippah is silly.
	The prevailing attitude (among Jews) seems to be that anyone
	who "does" is some kind of "Ortho-freak". (Non-Jews don't express
	a problem, by the way; they generally express respect.). Now,
	the "silliness" depends on one's point of view.  I have a model which
	classifies Jews NOT by "Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc.";
	rather, by either "Serious about Torah Observance" or "Not Serious 
	about Torah Observance". I think that that's the eventual
	point. If one's really serious, one tends to (deliberately) follow the
	mitzvah (the religious law) and the associated customs (like the
	kippah, which over time become about as binding as the law -- 
	some would/could argue with that).  Or, one is not serious. In that
	case, one makes choices (about things like this) as they go along.

	Wearing a kippah all the time makes a statement to non-Jews,
	generally differing in the minds of the beholder. But, undeniably, the 
	"wearer" is put into some kind of class. One has to be prepared
	to accept that.

	For a long time, I wore my kippah all the time, except to work. 
	That eventually caused a contradiction in my own mind.  I had 
	to finally make peace with the thought that the workplace was 
	going to have to accept me as I am.

/don feinberg

    
    re .40
    
>    If you believe that covering your head is an appropriate wayto show
>    respect to G_d, then why don't you do it whenever you are in a house
>    of worship?  If you believe your Lord would be pleased by it, why do
>    it only in a synagogue?  Since you believe that Jesus' arrival and
>    teachings overrule the Torah, you must believe that it is no longer
>    necessary for men to cover their heads.  

    I see your point. The distinction comes in the spirit with which
    it is done. I would do it, not just to please the congregation (what
    is the word for the congregation on the synagogue ?), but to show
    them that I care about paying proper respect to the Lord in a way
    that they can relate to. So it's not exactly respect for the members,
    rather respect for what the members hold dear.
    
    Basically, what it boils down to is this - do I do something which
    I feel to be offensive to the Lord just to please everyone ? The
    answer is no. I respect others' practices and would be willing to
    participate up until the point where I feel it to be wrong. Thus
    wearing the 'hat' I do not believe to be wrong so I do it as another
    way of worshipping. I draw the line at going to Hindu shrines and
    praying to golden idols !!
    
    Do you see my point ?

    Paul V

>>  (what is the word for the congregation on the synagogue ?), 
    
    Congregation!
    
>>  . . . but to show them that I care about paying proper respect to the
>>  Lord in a way that they can relate to. So it's not exactly respect for
>>  the members, rather respect for what the members hold dear.
    
    Which I think is still showing respect for the members.  If you respect
    my beliefs, you respect me.  Even if you don't believe in my G_d.  If
    your Lord approves, it's because of that respect, not directly because
    of your action.
    
>>  Do you see my point ?
    
    Yes, I do, and I think we've been arguing semantics.  I think we're
    saying the same thing with different words!
    

    uh, ok, I agree.
    Although, isn't this what they call a bet hamidrash ?
    
    Paul V :-)

    
    Blessed is the man who can hear his alarm clock on Sunday as well as
    on Monday.
    
    An empty tomb proves Christianity; an empty church denies it.
    
    No one is Christian just because he goes to church, any more than one
    is a calf because he drinks milk.
    
    No one is too bad to go to church; neither is anyone good enough to
    stay away.
    
    
                                          RM