| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 379.1 | Moshiach | CURIE::FEINBERG | Don Feinberg | Tue Sep 29 1987 15:53 | 94 |
| I'm giving below a copy of a short list I wrote some time
ago on MY view of what Jews believe about the Messiah
(Moshiach). Unfortunately, I'm not really a scholar, and I cannot
represent this to be totally complete. It is the result of some
scholarship I've personally been exposed to. I'm responsible for faults
and omissions.
That said, here goes:
We believe that the ultimate goal of history is the perfection of
society. Since everything was created by G-d, all must eventually be
perfected. This is even true of our everyday world, which was created
as a place for our service to G-d. You could call this ultimate goal
the "Messianic Age". The coming of the Messiah is a basic belief of
Judaism.
1. We believe that G-d is eternal, above and beyond time. G-d cannot
be born, He cannot die, nor can He be divided into sections.
The Messiah is not G-d. He will be a human being, born naturally to
husband and wife. Tanach says that the Messiah will be a direct
descendant of King David. He will reign as the King of the Jews.
The Torah clearly states in many places that our laws are eternal
and will never be abolished. So, the Messiah will definitely
conform to Torah law in his own behavior and teaching. For example,
observances of Kashrus (the Kosher laws), Sabbath, Rosh Hashanah,
Yom Kippur, Pesach, Sukkos, Shavuos, etc., etc., which are clearly
spoken of in Torah, will continue to be made in the time of the
Messiah, as they are today.
2. The majority of Jews will have to return to their homeland (Israel),
in a non-miraculous way, _before_ the Messiah comes.
Before the Messiah, the prophet Elijah will come. And the Messiah
himself will be a prophet. But there's a teaching that prophecy can
only exist in the Land of Israel, and then only when the majority of
Jews live there. So the ingathering of Jews must occur before the
Messiah will come.
During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish
people, and the presence of G-d will be among us. See Ezek. 37.27:
"And after that I will pour my spirit on all of mankind and your
sons and daughters will prophesy."
3. There is a tradition that the Holy Temple must be rebuilt before the
the Messiah comes. But there's also a tradition that Jerusalem
cannot be rebuilt before the ingathering of the Diaspora. It is
possible that the Messiah could accomplish those things before he is
recognized for who he is.
4. In Prophets (Isaiah 45 and Zefaniah 3) it says that when the Messiah
comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and
worship the one true G-d. "The knowledge of G-d will fill the
earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the
waters cover the seas (Isaiah 11.9)."
5. The Torah says that when the Messiah comes, his influence will
extend over all people. They will worship G-d at the Temple in
Jerusalem. It's said, "...for my house will become the house of
prayer for all nations". This does NOT mean that everyone will all
be Jews, rather that everyone will recognize G-d.
6. In order for the perfect society of the Messianic Age to exist, such
things as disease will have to be eliminated. Thus (as Isaiah 35.5)
"The eyes of the blind will be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be
unstopped; then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of
the dumb shall sing."
7. During the time of the Messiah, a new spirit will rule the world.
People will stop committing sins and crimes. This will especially
apply to Jews. Tanach says (Deut. 30.6) "G-d will circumcise your
heart and the heart of your children to love G-d.". (From Isaiah
60.21) "And your people are all righteous, they will inherit the
earth forever." (From Jeremiah 50.20) "In that day I will seek the
sins of Israel and there will be none." (From Ezek. 36.21) "I will
give you a new heart and a new spirit - and you will obey my laws
and commandments and do them."
8. One of the Messiah's major tasks is to bring peace to the entire
world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars,
and the manufacture of arms will stop. See Isaiah 2.4: "And they
shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword agains nation,
neither shall they learn war any more."
9. We believe that the Messiah, despite his impressive abilities,
cannot take away our sins. It's an important Torah position that
each person is responsible for, and punished for his sins alone:
"The soul that sinneth it shall die." "Sons will not be punished for
the sins of their fathers." According to the Torah, each person must
return to G-d. Each person must change their own ways and seek
G-d's forgiveness.
|
| 379.2 | And for a slightly different view... | CSCMA::SEIDMAN | Aaron Seidman | Tue Sep 29 1987 19:22 | 37 |
| Don provided a good summary of the Orthodox view of messianism, which has
been a major component of Jewish thought since the Babylonian exile,
although quite a few of the ideas he listed represent medieval development
of these basic ideas. (We've worked on this a lo-o-ong time :^) )
I am not sure if he provided direct answers to all your questions, so
I thought I'd supplement his response.
> 1) Can someone outline the major "requirements" of Meshiach?
Don's essay provides a good summary of traditional views.
2) Assuming that you don't believe Jesus to be Meshiach,
why don't you?
One of the most basic reasons is that he died. Furthermore,
he died without (from the standpoint of Jewish messianic theory)
accomplishing anything.
3) How will you recognize Meshiach when He comes?
By what he does.
4) Does Jewish theology necessitate that Meshiach be G_d
incarnate (as does fundamentalist Christianity)?
As Don pointed out, Jewish belief denies that the messiah will
be divine.
5) Is "Meshiach" an office or a man (i.e., can there be
a "string" of Meshaichs over a period of time)?
The traditional view, as Don pointed out, is that the messiah
will be a man. Non-Orthodox views include the idea that the
messiah and the messianic age are ideals for which we strive
not literal historical happenings to be anticipated.
|
| 379.3 | A request for clarification, and thanks | DYO780::SCHAFER | Dragons is *so* stupid ... | Wed Sep 30 1987 11:51 | 20 |
| RE: .1,.2
Thanks. This is really helping me out.
I do have a few other questions, though, if you don't mind.
How will you recognize Elijah?
How will you verify that the one claiming to be the Messiah (sorry,
these Jewish spellings are too much for my American mind to handle) is
really of the lineage of David? Is there some historical record
somewhere?
I think .2 stated that Jesus (Yeshua ben Yosef) was not Messiah
because he died? The Messiah is then supposed to be immortal? I don't
understand this at all.
Thanks again.
brad
|
| 379.4 | Is the world perfect? | IAGO::SCHOELLER | Caught in an information firestorm | Wed Sep 30 1987 13:12 | 22 |
| < Note 379.3 by DYO780::SCHAFER "Dragons is *so* stupid ..." >
RE: .3
Shalom Brad,
> How will you verify that the one claiming to be the Messiah (sorry,
> these Jewish spellings are too much for my American mind to handle) is
> really of the lineage of David? Is there some historical record
> somewhere?
No historical record. Very tough problem 8^{) . My guess is, if
he is successful then he is of the lineage of David. If not, who cares?
> I think .2 stated that Jesus (Yeshua ben Yosef) was not Messiah
> because he died? The Messiah is then supposed to be immortal? I don't
> understand this at all.
The problem is that he is gone and things are far from perfect.
L'hitraot,
Gavriel
|
| 379.5 | This is not an interesting topic? | DYO780::SCHAFER | Dragons is *so* stupid ... | Thu Oct 01 1987 13:17 | 10 |
| RE: all
Thank you for the answers so far - but frankly, I am surprised that
there have not been more responses.
Does anyone care about Messiah? Does anyone expect him to come soon?
Still asking questions ...
brad
|
| 379.6 | We all hope soon | ISTG::MAGID | | Thu Oct 01 1987 13:58 | 8 |
| Brad, I might suggest a good reference on the subject.
The 2 volume set of "The Jewish Book of Why"
It spends about 10 informative pages explaining the DIFFERENT
philosophies about the subject.
I personally believe that it will be an "AGE" not a person
|
| 379.7 | Q: Title 379.5 A: Correct! | GRECO::FRYDMAN | | Thu Oct 01 1987 15:30 | 14 |
| Brad,
Most Jews don't spend their time thinking and wondering about
Moishiach...they expend their spiritual effort doing mitzvot (the
commandments)...all of which bring them closer to G-d.
Moishiach will come when we are ready.
Ani ma amim, b amunah shlemo ,bevias ha moishiach...
--#12 Rambam's Foundations of Faith
---Av
|
| 379.8 | | CALLME::MR_TOPAZ | | Thu Oct 01 1987 16:15 | 55 |
| re .5:
> ...but frankly, I am surprised that there have not been more
> responses.
Some people might expect that you would investigate books, as
suggested by .6, which would surely be as definitive as at least
some of the information from respondants here.
Others might respectfully decline to answer your queries after
reading some of your previous contributions in other conferences.
Although your questions (and subsequent replies) in this topic
have indeed been civil, at least one note written under your name
describes Jews (and any other group that does not view Jesus as
you do) as being satanist and deriving their power from satan.
Specifically:
================================================================================
MIDAS""::JUNGLE:[MIREIDER.NOTES]CHRISTIAN.NOT;1
DYO780::SCHAFER Doing all for Christ's Glory 30-OCT-1985 15:09
Note 88.23 Trick or Treat or Christianity 23 of 24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
There are two sources of power in the universe. The greater
power is that of God, who is unlimited, unbounded, eternal, etc.
The lesser power is that of Satan, who is not even close to God
in power, and only operates in the context provided for him by
God.
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not
gather with me, scatters" (quoting Jesus in Luke 11:23).
Neither Hindus nor Buddhists nor "pagans" nor [fill in the
blank] acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah - the Anointed One, the
Son of God.
"Every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from
God." (1 John 4:3)
Technically, then, every group that does not derive its power
from God must derive its power from the devil and is therefore
satanist.
...
================================================================================
Now, please don't misinterpret me -- I don't suggest for a moment
that gentiles ought not contribute to this conference, or that
they ought not ask questions here. I am suggesting, though, that
your opinion that Jews derive their power from satan would offend
a large portion of the Jewish community. I can't speak for anyone
else in this conference, but I would imagine that it's not
inconceiveable that inquiries from individuals who have made such
statements might not be warmly received in this forum.
--Don Topaz
|
| 379.9 | I'm beginning to see more clearly | BRAT::PULKSTENIS | | Fri Oct 02 1987 13:02 | 61 |
| re: .8, MR_TOPAZ,
Thank you, Don, for entering that, and for your gracious reply.
My better judgement suggests that I should wait to review my notes
at home before I reply, but I seem to be unable to shake off my
impetuousness, so...
Forgive me (I've been saying that a lot lately!) if all my facts
are not exactly correct, or if I offend anyone, Jew or Christian
[help me coin a new word, please :-)]. I just want to be very
careful, and fair.
It would be fair to note that this entry of Brad's is from 1985,
quite old. People change. I did! Perhaps Brad, too, has changed
his perspective and may tell us how he feels today.
Now, this is from *my* new perspective: It is this kind of
Christian (mis)understanding and (mis)use of scripture that does
both Jews and Christians a great disservice.
What is so difficult is that we mortals feel we *have* to
fully understand and define the infinite God, and of necessity
we have to try to do so in very finite terms. Oviously, we
fall short.
Because most Christians have a one-sided perspective [a natural
and understandable, but avoidable, state], what they take as
God's word in the New Testament is often quoted from a strictly
Christian perspective (which, I'm learning, is incomplete).
God has never, nor will he ever, abandon the Jews! They are,
and always will be, near and dear to His heart. They are an
integral part of His plan. The Bible is very clear on this.
I'm not sure who's muddled the issue...
The concept that Jews who are outside of God and therefore
of Satan is *absolutely contradictory* to God's word and
His promises.
Christians seem to fall into the mistaken notion that since
Jews do not recognize Jesus as Christ, God has formed a "new
covenant" with Christians, turning His back on the "sinful
Jewish people".
In fact, the proper Christian perspective is (should be)
to recognize that the new covenant God established is with
His people -- *the Jews* -- and that we Christians, by His
mercy, are the wild olive that God has grafted in.
Now, I realize I'm into an area of theology here where our two
groups differ greatly. It's not my purpose to debate the correctness
or wrongness of either. I am content to respect and accept our
differences, and I present the above only as clarification and
support of my stand relative to the material presented in .8.
Humbled and still learning,
Irena
|
| 379.10 | Hopefully clearing a misunderstanding | DYO780::SCHAFER | Dragons is *so* stupid ... | Mon Oct 05 1987 16:24 | 34 |
| RE: .8
Ok - I'll call you Mr. Topaz (as opposed to Don 8-) ...
I think you've taken the statement a bit out of context. As I
remember it, I was referring to the occult, as the topic was about
Halloween. I suppose there are occultists who are of Jewish origin;
there are also (many more) occultists of gentile origin.
I was not saying /did not mean to say /will not ever say that all
Jewish people derive(d) their "power from Satan". That would be
totally absurd.
Think you can forgive me on that one, Do - er, Mr. Topaz? And thanks
for the remark about me being "civil". I *am* trying to tone down
these days. 8-)
Back to the topic at hand ...
I have read some books - a rather large one, in particular published
by a Mr. Abrahms (can't remember the full name right off the top of my
head). The fellow was a rabbinical type whose frame of reference
was/is so far removed my own that I couldn't really see where he was
coming from.
As I said before, while I feel I pretty much understand the Law at
face value, I do NOT understand the traditions built up around that
Law, or what implications they might have on the current Jewish
perspective on the Messiah. I'm simply trying to understand what you
do (and don't) believe about him.
Thank you for your understanding.
8^)
|
| 379.11 | Jewish-Christian differences | CSCMA::SEIDMAN | Aaron Seidman | Mon Oct 05 1987 20:23 | 52 |
| re: .10
> As I said before, while I feel I pretty much understand the Law at
> face value, I do NOT understand the traditions built up around that
> Law, or what implications they might have on the current Jewish
> perspective on the Messiah. I'm simply trying to understand what you
> do (and don't) believe about him.
There are at least two problems that you have to deal with:
1. In every religious group, there are the texts and then there
are the authoritative interpretations of the text. For instance, the earliest
texts we have of the Bible (from the Dead Sea Scrolls) are unvowelled and un-
punctuated and some copies of certain books differ from other copies of
the same books. Once you decide which text is authoritative, then you have
to vocalize and punctuate it to determine what it says. There are places
where changing the vowel changes the meaning. The Jewish tradition selected
texts that differ slightly (but sometimes significantly) from the Christian
version. In addition, the Jews added a second set of texts, known in its
edited form as the Mishnah, which are considered as authoritative as the
Bible, although not in exactly the same way. Christians have a somewhat
parallel situation with the Christian scriptures.
Thus, to understand Judaism you have to deal with the fact that
Jews and Christians differ in both the basic texts they use (although there
are some large areas of overlap) and in the way they interpret and emphasize
those texts.
2. There is a difference in emphasis on belief and action that
grows, in part, out of the coincidence of ethnicity and religion in Judaism.
One of the central ideas is that Jews, regardless of genetics, are one people.
If you are born a Jew, you don't become non-Jewish by not believing in
something. To convert, you don't so much profess a belief (although that
is part of the ritual) as swear allegiance to the Jewish people. As Av
pointed out (.7?), we don't spend very much time worrying about when/if
the/a Messiah (-->from the Heb., Mashiach=anointed) will come. The important
thing is what we have to DO today. We argue long and passionately with
each other about the right way to do things, but we rarely debate beliefs.
It is not that we don't have beliefs, but rather that the verbal profession
of a particular belief is not, with rare exceptions, a key element of Judaism.
Looking at it from a different angle, Jews often have great difficulty
understanding, for example, Christian debates about Trinitarian doctrine
or discussions of Satanism--our frame of reference is so different that,
except when we think you [generic 'you'] are being anti-Semitic, we
find it hard to believe you're serious.
If you can get past these two problems, you've made a start.
Whew! I didn't intend to be so verbose!
Aaron
|
| 379.12 | Know your language! | TAV02::NITSAN | set profile/personal_name="set profile/personal_name= | Wed Oct 07 1987 05:18 | 13 |
| From the linguistic point of view:
----------------------------------
In the past they used to "crown" a new king by pouring oil/ointment
on him (on his head?). My Hebrew-English dictionary says "Anointing".
This action called in Hebrew "Li'mshoch" from the verb "Mashach" (sounds
similar to the Hebrew word used for "to pull", but with "Het" rather than
"Chaf" in the end. Other related Hebrew words are: "Mishcha" (paste/ointment),
and ..."Mashiach" (the one to be 'anointed').
The rest of the English/International terms are derived from this Hebrew verb.
/Nitsan
|