Conference taveng::bagels

    Why don't you ask the ultra-orthodox rabbis - they know everything
    about anything that is verboten (forbidden).
    
    If it were up to me, I would blow the shofar every morning (insread
    of listening to the alarm clock) to announce a New Day (since our
    days are numbered, remember?).
    
    Good luck,  Rima
    

    re:.0
    
    I am far from an expert on Halacha, but I think that the prohibition
    is that of not making music on the Shabbat.
    
    re:.1
    
    Could we please refrain from invective, and I mean on both sides
    of the fence.  I'm beginning to tire of that term "ultra-orthodox",
    and I'm also tired of debating as to who has "the keys to the kingdom".
    
    David

    As best I can remember the shofar is not sounded the usual number
    of times because it is malucha to make music on shabbos. However,
    since it is a mitzva to listen to the shofar on Rosh Hashona
    it is only sounded once during the service.
    
    Better still. Ask the Rabbi who will be leading the service.
    
    			Fred
    

    Here's my $.02 worth.  I seem to recall that blowing the Shofar
    on Shabbat is not done due to the issue of not carrying on Shabbat.
    As far as music (intruments) go on Shabbat--one issue is concerned
    with carrying, and another is concerned with fixing (working, creating)
    the instrument if it breaks.

    There is no need for speculation. This issue is explicitly discussed
    in the Talmud (Tractate Rosh Hashana) and subsequently brought down
    in the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch.
    
    The prohibition of blowing the Shofar on Rosh Hashana which falls
    on Shabbat is Rabbinic. That means that form a Torah perspective
    there is no Issur. In fact the contrary is correct. The Rabbanim
    however were fearful that an ansilary transgression, carrying on
    the Shabbat, might be caused. Therefore they made the prohibition.
    The Talmud asks how can it be that the Torah tells you to Blow Shofar
    and the Rabbanim tell you not to? The Talmud answers that being
    Passive is different (Shev Veal Taaseh Shaani) and that the Rabbanim
    have been given the authority to uproot a Positive Commandment in
    a Passive fashion. 
    
    The Rabbanim have such authority only with regard to Positive
    Commandments as opposed to Negative Commandments, and then only
    if the uprootion is passive, meaning SIT and DO NOTHING. The Rabbanim
    have no authority to uproot a negative commandment on their own
    volition. In other words the Rabbanim could not uproot the prohibition
    of eating non-kosher etc. 
    
    Unfortunately, I don't have any Seforim in front of me so I can't
    quote exact sources. If anyone is interested I'll get them.
    
    Cb.
    
    Re .1  	The Tana in Pirkei Avot states that Silence is a guardian
    		for wiseness (Siyag LeChachma Shtika). The converse
    		is obvious in your case.

    Re. .5  And what does the Tana in Pirkei Avot state about
            Freedom of Speach?
    
                                                        Rima
    
    

    Thanks for all the interesting perspectives!  I'm sorry if the question
    offended some of you (this notes file has an even more varied
    membership than our little schul...); please be assured that no
    offense was intended to anyone's beliefs.  (There, I have apologized.)
    
    The rabbi and Mr. Schwarz (shofar-blower) will do whatever the ritual
    committee of the synagogue rules (or will get offended and quit
    in a huff, I suppose, in extreme cases, but both have been with
    us for a while),  that is why the congregation has a ritual committee,
    but those of us on it don't like to make decisions in a vacuum,
    and most of us are not Talmudic scholars.  I think that the shofar
    will not be blown (same as the last time this happened, about 5
    years ago).  As far as carrying it goes, we have to rent a building
    for the High Holidays (this ought to be the last year; we are building
    our own building, at last!), and the shofar, Torahs, ark, kiddush
    cups, etc. are moved over there for the duration (someone, usually
    the rabbi, moves the Torahs back to our little building for Shabbat
    Shuvah, without the ark, which is VERY heavy, and we use a tallis as
    a cover that day - when we are lucky to get a minyan anyhow).  So the shofar
    will not be carried, anyways.
    
    I have a brother-in-law who is an "ultra-Orthodox" rabbi (Young
    Israel); he is a nice fellow and I usually save up all the really
    tricky halachic questions to ask him when we see him (usually only
    at the second-night seder, if we go to his parents' house for it);
    maybe I will call him and ask what he thinks.
    

    Re: 6.
    
    What the Tana says has nothing to do with the freedom of speech.
    
    The Tana has merely pointed out a fact of life. 
    
    Until one opens his mouth and speaks noone can know whether he/she is 
    stupid or smart. Once a person speaks, the contents of his speech will 
    testify very quickly to his/her intelligence or lack thereof.
    
    Cb.

    An update:
    Apparently what our congregation will do this year (unlike the last
    time Rosh Hashanah started on Shabbos, which was, I think, three
    years ago) is to ask Mr. Schwarz (the shofar-blower) to come early
    and to leave the instrument, and we will blow shofar this year on
    Shabbos.  The consensus of opinion was that problem was with CARRYING
    the shofar, not MAKING SOUND with it.
    
    Considering the range of backgrounds our congregation comes from,
    no matter what we do and how we explain it, someone won't be happy.
    Apparently there were a lot of people the last time who believed
    that we had made the wrong choice, and we hadn't sufficiently
    researched the reasons to make a good defense.  How you you fellow
    noters feel?

    How are you going to blow it without picking it up ?

    Won't that be carrying it ?

>>>    How are you going to blow it without picking it up ?
>>>
>>>    Won't that be carrying it ?


Aw, c'mon.

Presumeably, he'll blow it indoors (read: private domain).

There really _are_ some halachic issues here....

/don feinberg