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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:	BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:	1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:	SMURF::FENSTER

Created:	Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:	Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1524
Total number of notes:	18709

108.0. "I'm confused about the time issue..." by KATIE::RICHARDSON () Fri Apr 11 1986 12:19

    I need clarification on one point of recent discussion:  just what
    is the RELIGIOUS issue about daylight savings time?  I would think
    it would help in that work on the day before shabbos or a holiday,
    when most places close at 1 anyhow (try to find someplace to eat
    kosher food on erev shabbos if you don't want to eat in your hotel
    and have no local friends!) would have another hour of daylight
    before the beginning of the holiday.  So what's the issue?  Is it
    that maybe there would not be enough time for morning prayers before
    work?  I know that in some kibbutzes (I am thinking of Yahel, where
    I know some residents; it is a reform kibbutz but follows strict
    rules in the public areas; if someone does not keep kosher or shomer
    shabbos in their own room, that is not the problem of the community)
    the work day starts at 4 am, so that people can rest or sleep and
    do indoor work during the hot part of the day rather than work in
    the agricultural areas.  At least, they keep that schedule during
    the summer.  Is the problem, then, that daylight savings time might
    cause it to be too dark before 4 am for morning prayers?  I would
    think that in agricultural work, the work starts at the same time
    relative to the sun (since that is why they are working at all at
    such an absurb time!), not relative to whatever clock scheme is
    being used; so, if is too dark at 4 for prayers, it is probably
    also too dark to pick grapes (or whatever) - which would happen
    anyhow during seasons other than summer.
    
    Or is there more to it than that?

T.R Title User Personal
Name Date Lines

108.1 what's wrong with daylight savings time LSMVAX::ROSENBLUH Fri Apr 11 1986 14:09 41

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
108.1	what's wrong with daylight savings time	LSMVAX::ROSENBLUH		`Fri Apr 11 1986 14:09`	41
	As far as I know there are two problems. With d.s.t. in effect, shabat ends an hour later than it otherwise would. The "status quo" in Israel allows buses to start operating at the end of shabat, and theatres to show movies, etc. The theory according to the rabbinate is that, without d.s.t., even if these activities start a little before shabat ends (as they often do), the great unwashed masses of not-too committed Jews will not be forced to choose between desecrating shabat and giving up movies and bus travel. (Maybe we should open a whole other topic on what the "status quo" is and how it got that way.) But, with d.s.t., shabat ends an hour later, and the masses are not about to give up saturday night movies, etc. There is actually good talmudic precedent for the rabbinate's concern; I am thinking of the discussion on the importance of not enacting laws and decrees that are not likely to be easily accepted and obeyed by the masses, in order not to a) cause many to sin and b) encourage the division instead of the unification of the community. But I can't remember the source or the actual key-words of the discussion. And anyway, I digress, although the point about the rabbinate is that you can't attribute their attitude on this subject to simple hypocrisy; it has better grounds than that. Ah yes, the other point: lets say without d.s.t. dawn is at 5 a.m., shema may be said until 6:30 a.m., and the average workday starts at 7:00. With d.s.t, dawn is now at 6 a.m., shema may be said until 7:30 BUT NOT BEFORE 6-SOMETHING (it has to actually BE morning when you say the morning prayers), and the workday still starts at 7:00. There are going to be people who can no longer easily, or perhaps at all, find time to pray in the morning before having to go to work. That's the problem that religious Jews have with d.s.t. (the other problem is more a concern that religious Jews have for their non-religious fellows.) I don't know what happens to people who work in agriculture, but my best guess (and partial non-ECCed memory) is that on religious kibbutzim and moshavot, many farm-chores start VERY early, at break-of-day or even earlier for some animal-care chores, and after a couple hours work, workers come back to the settlement to pray and then have breakfast.

    As far as I know there are two problems.  With d.s.t. in effect,
    shabat ends an hour later than it otherwise would.  The "status
    quo" in Israel allows buses to start operating at the end of shabat,
    and theatres to show movies, etc.  The theory according to the
    rabbinate is that, without d.s.t., even if these activities start 
    a little before shabat ends (as they often do), the great unwashed 
    masses of not-too committed Jews will not be forced to choose between 
    desecrating shabat and giving up movies and bus travel.  
                
    (Maybe we should open a whole other topic on what the "status quo"
    is and how it got that way.)
    
    But, with d.s.t., shabat ends an hour later, and the masses are
    not about to give up saturday night movies, etc.  There is actually
    good talmudic precedent for the rabbinate's concern; I am thinking
    of the discussion on the importance of not enacting laws and  decrees 
    that are not likely to be easily accepted and obeyed by the masses,
    in order not to a) cause many to sin and b) encourage the division
    instead of the unification of the community.  But I can't remember
    the source or the actual key-words of the discussion. And anyway,
    I digress, although the point about the rabbinate is that you can't
    attribute their attitude on this subject to simple hypocrisy; it
    has better grounds than that.
    
    Ah yes, the other point: lets say without d.s.t. dawn is at 5 a.m.,
    shema may be said until 6:30 a.m., and the average workday starts
    at 7:00.  With d.s.t, dawn is now at 6 a.m., shema may be said until
    7:30 BUT NOT BEFORE 6-SOMETHING (it has to actually BE morning when
    you say the morning prayers), and the workday still starts at
    7:00.  There are going to be people who can no longer easily, or
    perhaps at all, find time to pray in the morning before having
    to go to work.   That's the problem that religious Jews have with
    d.s.t. (the other problem is more a concern that religious Jews
    have for their non-religious fellows.)  
    
    I don't know what happens
    to people who work in agriculture, but my best guess (and partial
    non-ECCed memory) is that on religious kibbutzim and moshavot, 
    many farm-chores start VERY early, at break-of-day or even earlier
    for some animal-care chores, and after a couple hours work, workers
    come back to the settlement to pray and then have breakfast.