[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference tallis::celt

Title:	Celt Notefile

Moderator:	TALLIS::DARCY

Created:	Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:	Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1632
Total number of notes:	20523

1339.0. "When Ireland Starved" by KOALA::HOLOHAN () Thu Mar 03 1994 14:52

	 NEW YORK (Reuter) - Harrowing scenes of the famine that
devastated Ireland in the last century and caused an exodus to
every corner of the globe are depicted in a video documentary
made to commemorate the disaster and raise awareness of world
hunger.
	 The video, ``When Ireland Starved,'' made by Radharc Films
of Dublin and first shown on Irish television, has now been
released in the United States and Canada by Celtic Video.
	 ``The film is not just to commemorate the dead, it's also to
raise consciousness about the starving now in other countries.
We hope it will help people to make a connection with what's
happening now,'' said Celtic Video's Martin Somers.
	 The four-part documentary is being shown on public
television here during March and Somers said he hoped it would
also act as a catalyst for plans next year to commemorate the
150th anniversary of the Irish famine.
	 Drawing extensively on historical documents and reports, the
film examines the scale of the deaths and the impact of the
tragedy that cut Ireland's population in half -- from 8 millon
to 4 million in the 10 years from 1845 to 1855.
	 The film says that while the potato crop failure caused the
deaths of 1.5 million people and the exodus of 2.5 million more,
the scale of the disaster was contributed to by centuries of
repressive laws that reduced the population to abject poverty
and dependence on the crop.
	 ``When the famime struck Ireland in the middle of the last
century, unlike the rest of Europe, the Irish were still caught
in the grip of colonial structures and lay impoverished and
acutely vulnerable to the catastrophe,'' said Somers.
	 The filmmakers, led by director Joe Dunn, approached the
subject as they would the filming of a famine now.
	 ``We got background, visited the locations and got
comments,'' said narrator Peter Kelly. Quotes from political and
social leaders of the time are read over historical
illustrations.
	 ``We also wanted to look at why it happened,'' Kelly said.
	 The film highlights laws that curbed native wool, glass and
other industries so that Irish industry would not be competitive
with industry in the rest of the British Empire.
	 In addition, a century of penal laws, repealed just 20 years
before the famine, barred Catholics from the army, navy, law and
commerce. Education was almost impossible and none could vote or
purchase land. In 1660 about 10 percent of the land was owned by
English planters; by 1780 they owned 95 percent.
	 ``The word genocide has been used, but it is too strong a
term. What happened in the Irish potato famine was not the
deliberate destruction of a race; it was caused by the inability
of a system founded on colonial conceptions of state assistance
to adjust itself to catastrophe,'' wrote Brendan Kennelly of
Dublin's Trinity College.
	 Persecution of minorities was common in the 19th century,
the film notes, but what happened in Ireland was unique in two
ways: a majority was persecuted and it continued for a century
longer than elsewhere.
	 The British government, believing nothing should interfere
with private enterprise, blocked attempts to change its laws and
opposed charity for the hungry. It introduced public works
programs, such as road-building, that paid meager wages. But the
poor were too weak to build roads and so continued to die.
	 Yet the country was prodwcing enough food to feed 16 million
people, the film notes. ``It is starvation because although
there is an abundance ... those who want cannot get in the midst
of plenty because they do not possess the small sum of money
necessary to buy a supply of food,'' it quotes the Duke of
Wellington as saying.
	 But food continued to be shipped abroad, sparking riots at
some ports, and as the government blamed mismanagement by
landlords it had originally sent to Ireland and landlords blamed
government laws, death stalked the land.
	 Reporters from the Illustrated London News, whose drawings
are used extensively in the film, conveyed the horror to the
outside world.
	 So many people died in Cork that hinged coffins were
introduced so they could be used again for more victims. For
others there were not even coffins -- just burial mounds on the
beaches.
	 Film researcher Eleanor Cunney described the scene in
Mayo: ``I'd seen many famine graves on this trip, each with its
own litany of tragic tales. Most of the plots were carefully
tended and marked. But this place was different. It needed no
markings being an enormous hill of sand and stones that could be
seen for miles. And the bones; bones everywhere attesting to its
purpose.''
	 Gerald Keegan, a schoolteacher who survived the famine,
wrote in his diary that the devastation he saw reminded him of
the suffering of the Jews in the Book of Exodus: ``I have
acquired a deeper understanding of the Israelites' long and
painful march from their captivity in Egypt to a Promised Land.
I have but to look at what is taking place in my country ...
there is nothing to compare with this march, this exodus.''
	 As news of the disaster spread, America sent 114 ships with
20,000 tons of provisions; Baron Lionel de Rothschild raised
400,000 pounds sterling in Britain; Quakers and New York's Jews
sent aid.
	 Others seemed inured to the tragedy. In a chilling
commentary, the film quotes The Times of London as saying of the
famine: ``Soon a Celt will be as rare on the banks of the Liffey
as a red man on the banks of the Hudson. It was all for the
advancement of civilization.''

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1339.1		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Thu Mar 03 1994 18:59`	11
	Mark, While I'm sure this is a fine piece of documentary film-making, I have to question your motives in posting this. Another stick to beat HMG with I suppose. As somebody who was born and raised in Mayo and whose great-great-grandparents survived the Famine I don't particularly feel the need to accost the current inhabitants of the UK for the sorrows caused by their somewhat misguided forebearers. The last thing Ireland needs right now is to dig up this particular ghost of the past. Joe.
1339.2		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Thu Mar 03 1994 19:18`	4
	I wonder how many new notes Holohan can start? I think we need one on Cromwellian atrocities.
1339.3		CTHQ::LEARY	It'sBeenALongTimeComing...	`Thu Mar 03 1994 19:41`	15
	Last 2, Gentlemen, While I agree that the past should not be brought up to drive a wedge into new beginnings, this is the CELT file and even though I'm new, I believe this notesfile does contain plenty of topics on Celtic history. This topic is interesting to me as long it is kept in its context as suggested. Some of my ancestors came to America during the famine and I'd love to hear appropriate comments. Thanks, Mike
1339.4		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Fri Mar 04 1994 00:27`	4
	Yeah, I agree. I'm also sure you wouldn't like it warped by the agenda of a mental 8 year old.
1339.5	Joe, more British than the British themselves.	KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Fri Mar 04 1994 09:22`	23
	re. .1 Joe, Heaven help us, an historical documentary. What will the Fenian Bstrds come up with next. God knows it's better for people to remain ignorant, rather than upset them with information that might not make HMG look nice. The last thing Ireland needs right now, is more people like you willing to bury your heads so far up, so that you don't upset the British government. Gee Joe, maybe we should censor the movie. If you don't like it Joe, then don't watch it. For God's sake Joe, I was born in London, and it doesn't upset me to post this information. re. .4 Eastland. Are you still upset about being a prime example of Australopithicus?
1339.6		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Fri Mar 04 1994 09:54`	9
	Mark, your last diatribe was pretty predictable. If it had'nt come from you it might have upset me. You may think you're a friend of Ireland, but your type, cosily distanced from the reality of the situation, can say what you like and not have to suffer the conseqeunces. Armchair terrorists are no friends of Ireland. Joe.
1339.7		NEWOA::GIDDINGS_D	The third world starts here	`Fri Mar 04 1994 10:18`	14
	> God knows it's > better for people to remain ignorant, rather than > upset them with information that might not make > HMG look nice. Actually this information is taught in schools (or at least at the school I attended in Belfast), along with subjects like Cromwell and the plantation. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well on the government of that time. But just in case you hadn't noticed, this is 1994. BTW, do they teach the history of Vietnam and the genocide of the American Indians in US schools? Dave
1339.8		KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Fri Mar 04 1994 11:04`	19
	re. .6 Joe, Take a deep breath, and think real hard. I'd like to know how posting information about an historical documentary makes someone an "armchair terrorists"? What makes someone a "friend of Ireland"? Are the folks who work at Amnesty International, and Helsinki watch, not friends of Ireland, because they say "bad things" about Britain? re. .7 I can't speak for Vietnam as I was in school when it was happening, so it wasn't history yet. I do believe that an effort is underway to teach a true history of the genocide of Native Americans. Mark
1339.9		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Fri Mar 04 1994 11:09`	6
	Very little you write upsets me, Mark, as I regard you as a hate-filled rabble rouser, though you have been improving over the last year or so under our tutelage, or at least you have learned what not to say in notes.
1339.10		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Fri Mar 04 1994 14:43`	16
	re .8 Mark, It's not posting info about this documentary that makes me think this of you, but your refusal to condemn IRA acts of violence (terrorism) directed at innocents, such as Warrington etc. By the way I would urge all and sundry to see this documentary, as Radharc ("View" in Irish) have made many excellent documentaries of Irish interest. The Famine is something that is very real to rural Ireland, if from nothing else but the many graveyards dating from that period. It is also why the Irish are among the most numerous civilian aid-workers in the Third World. Joe.
1339.11	On PBS?	POLAR::RUSHTON	տ�	`Fri Mar 04 1994 16:29`	8
	Mark, Do you know when it is to be broadcast on PBS? I have had a keen interest in this subject as my ancestors left Skibbereen in 1848 because of the ravages of the Famine, and now in Canada I have an addition connection via Grosse �le. Pat
1339.12		KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Mon Mar 07 1994 08:53`	16
	re. .10 Joe, I believe that all acts of violence, whether by the British Army, the SAS, the British courts, the UDA, the RUC, the UVF, the UFF, the INLA, the IRA, the U.S. Army etc, etc, etc etc are wrong. Terrorism, whether sponsored by the British state, the Irish Republican Army, the American Revolutionary Army of 1776, the French resistance movement, etc. etc. etc. or anyone else is wrong. Happy? Did I miss anyone? Mark
1339.13		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Mon Mar 07 1994 09:48`	5
	re .12 Now what makes makes me think that you're sincere... Joe.
1339.14		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Mon Mar 07 1994 10:01`	5
	The usual lamebrained defence at work - of course the British army isn't doing the killing. And thugs that shoot Warrington cops are just thugs.
1339.15		PLAYER::BROWNL	Information Super do what?	`Mon Mar 07 1994 12:12`	7
	RE: .12 So Mark, to help my thick British brain (rescued by the Irish in me from total moronity), do you condemn the Warrington Bombing as a cowardly act? Yes or No? Laurie.
1339.16	again; anyone know the dates & times	CTHQ::COADY		`Mon Mar 07 1994 16:09`	10
	Leaving current politics out of it, I believe that the famine played a major role in Ireland and how its structured today, as well as the impact of Irish people in other countries - as a result of leaving. I'm very interested in seeing this TV series and I'd be grateful if anyone knows the date and times of transmission and post it here. thanks.
1339.17		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Mon Mar 07 1994 16:28`	6
	Leaving current politics out of it > Not done in ::CELT!!!
1339.18		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Mon Mar 07 1994 18:44`	7
	Well for one thing the Famine shaped Irish agriculture to the present day. With the clearing of the land, the introduction of intensive sheep and cattle rearing was made feasible on a large scale. In fact, this very reason was why (some) landlords were not too put out by the plight of the peasants. Joe.
1339.19		KERNEL::BARTHUR		`Tue Mar 08 1994 06:17`	13
	The same thing happened in Scotland of course after the Jacobite rebellion in 1746. The highland clearances brought about the formation of Nova Scotia (New scotland) and a town there called Dunedin (Edinburgh). The clearances were all about getting the people off the land and putting sheep on there instead. This of course was carried out by the English government masqerading as the British government after the union of parliaments in 1707. However, that was 200+ years ago and although is not forgotten or forgiven it seems to me that the only place which not only dwells on the past but actually lives within it, is N. Ireland. Bill
1339.20		VYGER::RENNISONM	One hundred and eeiigghhttyyyyy	`Tue Mar 08 1994 07:40`	8
	re.-1 Not 100% true Bill. Many of the landlords were Scots who were quite happy to take the money and run. Mark
1339.21	A parcel O rogues !	IRNBRU::EDDIE	Eddie McInally, FIS, Ayr. 823-3537	`Tue Mar 08 1994 07:51`	11
	Re :-.1 Those Scottish landlords were "bought and sold for English Gold... What a parcel O' rogues in a Nation" Many of these landlords took "English gold" as bribes for their votes for the Union in the Scottish parliament. England had realised that they could make massive profits from Scotland and they are still making these profits today. Eddie.
1339.22		TALLIS::DARCY	Alpha Migration Tools	`Tue Mar 08 1994 10:08`	4
	I've heard several arguments that the hearty Irish meals that one gets today are a response to the time of the famine, when food was less plentiful. And I recollect some science show on PBS which stated that the Irish consume the most calories.
1339.23		KERNEL::BARTHUR		`Tue Mar 08 1994 10:12`	7
	I'm afraid you are wrong Mark and Eddie is correct! Apart from being bought and sold for English gold as Burns put it, the land was given to the landlords in the first place for political favours. Bill
1339.24	Scots were responsible	TROOA::MCRAM	Marshall Cram DTN 631-7162	`Tue Mar 08 1994 17:28`	19
	Most the highlands was clan land for centuries and was not given for favours, at least not by any British or English government. (The favours would have to the Scottish kings, mostly centuries before). Many of clan chiefs started behaving as landlords and selling the land to Lowland or english landlords, land they held in trust for whole clans. Others started their own clearances. Many of the clearances were carried under upperclass highland Scots. The British government didn't have to get involved. They were happy, though, to recruit Highland regiments and get rid the young male population. It might be nice to blame this on the English government, but it just ain't true. Marshall
1339.25		PLAYER::BROWNL	Information Super do what?	`Wed Mar 09 1994 04:13`	6
	RE: .15 It's nice to have some constancy. I see Holohan is ignoring the question again. Mark, do you really expect to be taken seriously? Laurie.
1339.26	baloney	KERNEL::BARTHUR		`Wed Mar 09 1994 05:15`	12
	re.24 we'll have to agree to disagree then Marshall. The Duke of Cumberland and his redcoats (English and government troops) made the highlanders pay a terrible price for their rebellion in 1746. Shortly afterwards the clearances began. But just to put your mind at ease i'll dig out the historical reference books so that you can be in no doubt about who the perpetrators were. Bill
1339.27	Don't like casting up the past, but it's history	KIRKTN::CDOUDIE	I would do anything for love..	`Wed Mar 09 1994 12:58`	9
	Not "Butcher Cumberland".....can't be the same man !!!! The Glencoe Massacre a few years earlier was along the same lines as well.......something to do with a certain clan debating whether to sign allegiance to the English throne. We could go on all day about the attrocities the English have done to the Scots over the years.......and right up to the present goverment.