Conference tallis::celt

I hope the British government do likewise - and soon.

Mark

    Agreed!
    
    

    
    But in the Irish governments own words from yesterday, "if they try to
    undermine the authority of the state then action will be taken".
    I think that Major will suspend the ban as part of the talks if they
    ever get started.
    

    re.0
>that interviews with members of the IRA and Sinn Fein can now be
>broadcast with with minor restrictions.
    
    What are the "minor restrictions".
    Do these restrictions apply to other political parties or just Sinn
    F�in.
    
    Tony

    
    I think the minor restrictions are that there are still 2 other
    Communications acts which haven't been removed.  One of them deals
    with prohibiting interviews with individuals inciting violence or
    something like that.  I suppose that could affect interviews with
    the IRA.  I'm not sure of the details.
    
    In any case it's a win for free speech.  The door to peace in NI
    has been now opened by the Republic.  The cow is out of the barn.
    Let's hope the other parties follow suit in peaceful negociations.
    
    Incidentally, I don't consider removing article 31 a privilege which
    requires any immediate reciprocation.  The act was a just a sneaky
    form of political censorship sponsored by Conor "Let's-make-believe
    -we're-not-Irish" Cruise O'Brien.
    
    /George

    
    
    "Minor" restriction includes something called "Section 18". RTE have
    had to publish a set of guidelines for their journalists to adhere
    to  before interviewing any SF memeber. Includes things like the
    state appointed RTE body Vetoing any PROPOSED interviews with SF if
    they so wish..also for the most part interviews must be pre-recorded.
    
    Someone needs to tell the emperor here that he has no clothes!..because
    this doesn't look to me too much like lifting a ban...
    
    
    Mick
    
    
    
    
    

    >Someone needs to tell the emperor here that he has no clothes!..because
    >this doesn't look to me too much like lifting a ban...
    
    From your description I agree.  Too bad.

    The sections 31 and 18 referred to are sections of the Irish
    constitution, which speak about the use of the broadcast media for the
    subversion of state, i.e. the IRA/Sinn Fein. Remember that the
    constitution was penned by DeVelara in 1937, when many IRA members were
    still incarcerated by the government and Ireland was still in post
    Civil War turmoil (has it ever really got out of it?). 
    
    So its not RTE heads deciding on censorship, more they are doing
    editorial review on whether they could be prosecuted under the
    constitution for letting certain people say what they like. You could
    equate it to incitement to hatred legislation which was introduced
    recently in Ireland (UK, Germany have similar).
    
    Of course this does'nt stop Sinn Fein calling foul. However if they
    renounced violence the door would be open. The keys are in their hands.
    
    Joe.
                                                                           

    
    Joe,
    
    Yes fair enough see your point.
    
    Time will tell the reaction and see how it works out. I keep seeing
    the ghost of Conor Cruiser "read and listen to what I SAY o'brien" -) -) -)
     -).
    
    >>Civil War turmoil (has it ever really got out of it?) 
    
    I don't think so and alot of this is due to the fact that its not been 
    ever built into our educational system here what it was all about.
    Theres a big gap between the "Glory days" of 1916...the atrocities of the
    black and tans right up to the early 30's. 
    
    That our eduactional system stems from maynooth college (Catholic
    religious training camp) says it all. 
    
    
    .Got to run..theres a massive burning red cross comming over the
    mountains -) -) -)
    
    
    
    
    
     

re. .8

 When Gerry Adams gets up and says that the Nationalists
 in north east Ireland should not be persecuted and
 terrorized by British forces, is that "subversion of
 the state of Ireland"? .
 
 When Sinn Fein members try to speak about the peace
 process, or their constituents, or even the damm
 weather, is that equivalent to "inciting hatred"?

 Has the British government agreed to renounce violence?
 I'd say you were brain-washed but in your case perhaps
 only a light rinse was needed.
 The key to peace is in the same hands it's always
 been in, the British.  

 The lifting of section 31 is a great idea, because it
 never should have been enacted.  Unfortunately the
 damage it has done over the years will take years to
 undo (witness Joe-speak).


                     Mark

    So basically, having dropped Section 31, Martin McGuinness and
    Gerry Adams can talk about gardening and interior decorating, but
    due to Section 18, they cannot talk about the IRA?  Well, it's
    a step forward, however small that step is...  Sigh...

    Oh Mark, you're such a paranoid ass and I suppose you're still upset with 
    me over 1310.*.
    
     >When Sinn Fein members try to speak about the peace
     >process, or their constituents, or even the damm
     >weather, is that equivalent to "inciting hatred"?
     I was comparing the legislation to that of incitement to hatred
    legislation in conception. When Sinn Fein apologize or make excuses for
    IRA violence, it strikes me as not inciting hatred, but condoning
    hatred.
    
    > When Gerry Adams gets up and says that the Nationalists
    > in north east Ireland should not be persecuted and
    > terrorized by British forces, is that "subversion of
    > the state of Ireland"? .
    No, but when he condones IRA violence whose express wish is the
    overthrow of Government North and South then it is subversion.
    
    Don't get me wrong here, the nationalist minority in the North
    certainly do have a case for civil rights (which is after all the root
    cause of the current "Troubles") but many of problems of 1969 are'nt
    issues any more. Why is Derry, the flaring point of the Troubles, back
    in '69 and thoughout the '70's, one of the most integrated and peaceful
    communities now?
    
    Let the Nationalists use outlets like the SDLP rather than the IRA.
    The IRA's methods are the same as the Black & Tans of 1918-21. Brutal
    and ultimately self-defeating.
    
    Joe. 

 re. .12

 Apologizing for violence, or making an excuse for 
 a violent act might be considered in poor taste, but
 it shouldn't be a criminal act.  If it were, it
 would have to be applied even-handedly, and you
 best start with locking up every member of the British
 government.

 Criminalizing the condoning of a violent act,
 that is a response to a history of British violent 
 acts is hypocritical.


              Mark

    
    re .13
    
     >Criminalizing the condoning of a violent act,
     >that is a response to a history of British violent
     >acts is hypocritical.
     
    First of all how is it hypocritical of the IRISH government. Secondly
    the condoning is not a criminal act, but RTE could have lost its
    broadcasting license if it allowed such to be aired. Indeed in light of
    the lifting of the section 31 based order, which specifically named
    organizations, including Sinn Fein and the UFF, there only remains the
    incitement to hatred legislation, which applies to all the media and
    all parties.
    
    Joe.

    Re: .10
    
    Normally I stay out of things like this... I'll probably regret
    getting in to this one!
    
    Mark, I've read much of your commentary, and what comes back
    from the other side.  I try not to take sides at all.
    
    Regarding just the sentiment reflected in .10, where it seems
    that you feel that, before the removal of the full censorship
    acts takes place (in a few more days), before any interviews
    have officially (to the public's knowledge) been requested,
    and therefore clearly before any such interviews have been
    individually denied or censored... you feel that Gerry Adams
    will still not be allowed to have an interview on RTE (for 
    example)?
    
    How about just sitting back, saying "not enough, not soon
    enough, but at least it is a start" and waiting to see what
    really happens?  Foretelling doom certainly doesn't do much
    to prevent it...
    
    -Jay
    

    George
    
    I do not believe that it will be as restricted as you describe.  Sinn
    Fein in any case would probably refuse to discuss the IRA but would
    discuss the 'political' issues.  
    
    The first interview with Sinn Fein on RTE after Section 31 lapses will
    be  with Gerry Adams and will take place next Sunday for the News at 1:30 
    (I believe) and I don't think they'll be discussing gardening!
    
    -Dermot

    Independant Radio News were actually first with an Interview with Gerry
    Adams after the lifting of the ban.
    
    Conor Lenihan (Son of Brian Lenihan TD) who is a reporter for IRN
    interviewed Mr Adams on the "Downing Street Declaration".
    
    So it looks like he was'nt just talking about the weather!
    
    Joe.

Are you sure Joe ?  I thought that the Classical Music station were first 
with the "scoop".



Mark

  Sorry I've taken so long to reply, been pretty
  busy lately.

  Jay,
    I didn't mean, and we've already seen that it's
  not an issue of Mr. Adams being allowed an interview.
  I meant that the damage that has been done via
  Government censorship, to Sinn Fein and Mr. Adams,
  will take years to undo.  The government (British,
  Irish, and sadly even American) have demonized this
  man and his party in the eyes of the unquestioning
  public (ie. those who can turn around and support
  government censorship).
  It will take some time for the effects of Government
  censorship to wear off, and let Mr. Adams and
  Sinn Fein be given the fair shake they deserve.

  This is not foretelling doom, but pointing out that
  years of political damage forced upon Sinn Fein by
  government censorship, will take years to undo.

                   Mark

>I meant that the damage that has been done via
>  Government censorship, to Sinn Fein and Mr. Adams,
>  will take years to undo.  The government (British,
>  Irish, and sadly even American) have demonized this
>  man and his party in the eyes of the unquestioning
>  public (ie. those who can turn around and support
>  government censorship).
>  It will take some time for the effects of Government
>  censorship to wear off, and let Mr. Adams and
>  Sinn Fein be given the fair shake they deserve.
>
>  This is not foretelling doom, but pointing out that
>  years of political damage forced upon Sinn Fein by
>  government censorship, will take years to undo

This is RICH!

It will take even longer to undo the damage done to the lives 
of families at the receiving end of the Provo "armed struggle", not to
mention those communities subjected to their gangsterism.

Come on Mark - justify the protection rackets!

I for one am glad to see Mr.Adams subjected to rigorous questioning
on Irish T.V (Brian Farrell on Sunday night)

As for Larry King - he had all the incisiveness of a reconstructed Bobbit
and seemed honoured to fawn on Gerry, the broth o' a boy!

The sight of armchair republicans cheering Gerry at a safe distance from
Northern Ireland (and reality) made me gag on my Special K.

What Gerry and his cohorts want is nothing short of Ethnic Cleansing!
Mark no doubt will confirm this for us.

Pat

(who, thank God has been far too busy for the last 6 months to read this
conference)

(maybe I'm disqualified from contributing to this discussion:

   1. I live in Dublin
   2. My wife's family come from the north
   3  I visit the north every couple of months
   4  My daughter is attending QUB
   5  I have friends from all traditions

Obviously I am not as qualified as those who are separated by time (centuries)
and geography from present day Ireland

    Pat,
    
    well said....
    
    Joe (who wishes he had to time to make a more detailed reply). 
                 

    Ah but Pat, regardless of Adams views, at least now he has the
    *privilege* to both express his views, and likewise, be rigorously
    questioned in the US.  Prior to today this did not happen. How does
    one form an educated opinion on the conflict in NI and move peace
    forward when the British prohibit freedom of expression in the UK
    and by their international lobbying efforts? That is the real problem.
    
    George

re. .20

 Pat, and how long will it take to undo the years of
 British injustice? and Irish censorship?  How long
 to undo the human rights violations reaped upon the
 nationalist by the British?

 Spare me your protection rackets cry.  Sinn Fein 
 doesn't operate any protection rackets.  The closest
 thing to a protection racket in the north is the
 British tax system, paying for British soldiers.

 You're wrong about Larry King, he hardly fawned on
 Mr. Adams.  If anything he gave too much time to the
 alliance biggot who wouldn't answer yes or no to
 British demilitarization.  Then he finished off with
 a stupid question about being shot, if he visited
 north east Ireland.  Mr. Adams showed a lot of patience
 when speaking with King.  Perhaps you got confused 
 during the voice-overs?

 What exactly is an armchair republican? Is Bernadette
 McAliskey an armchair republican?  Is Father Des Wilson?
 Are the people from Amnesty International and Helsinki
 Watch armchair republicans?

 What Sinn Fein wants is peace, and peace with justice.
 As for ethnic cleansing, if I were you I'd smarten up
 and pop that label on the British controlled loyalist,
 who like to kill Catholics.

 You're entitled to your opinions, now please go and
 get an informed one.

                  Mark
 

 

    Talking about censorship, on the way to work this morning I heard that
    the AOH have refused to allow gays/lesbians to take part in the Paddy's
    day parade in New York.  Naturally, I blame Kevin Burns for this awful
    state of affairs. 
    
    Declan

> Spare me your protection rackets cry.  Sinn Fein 
> doesn't operate any protection rackets.  The closest
> thing to a protection racket in the north is the
> British tax system, paying for British soldiers.

You really believe that neither the IRA nor the UVF operates protection
rackets?  

    
    
    
    Declan: In your case, an exception could be requested.	;-)
    
    
    
    keVin
    

    
    	there's an awful lot that can be blamed on kevin burns...
    
    	you should HEAR him at his irish classe...
    	disruptive  little so and so.
    
    	sorry that was herr drotter.... on the other han maybe it was
    	kevin...

 Sinn Fein is not the IRA.

 I can understand that during a war, a military force
 sometimes takes what it needs.  The British military
 in north east Ireland rely on the British tax system
 for their war effort. They do tend to still take what
 they desire anyways.  A good example would be taking 
 over factory, and floor space from nationalist groups
 trying to start up business enterprises.  All in the
 good name of "protecting" the people they are stealing
 from.  I wouldn't hazzard a guess at the UVF, and how
 they're funded, though it does seem that their weapons
 tend to be given to them, free of charge, from the
 British security forces.

                      Mark

    re .28.
    >> Sinn Fein is not the IRA.
    
    And you not Mark Holohan.
    
    Keep smoking that stuff Mark...
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce
    
    PS:  Did anybody spot Adams Balaclava hanging out the back of his
    trousers.  :*)

    
    Well now I have a real quandary. I've heard the chief correspondent
    on Irish matters from the (left leaning, it seems) Independent
    newspaper, who himself is Irish. tell me that the IRA cover their
    operating expenses largely from protection rackets and also from
    skimming cash from IRA owned clubs (that now are causing a cash crunch 
    for the IRA as they are being forced to declare more realistic cash
    flow). On the other hand I have Mark, NI expert resident in Nashua, NH,
    USA telling me they don't. I'm caught between Scylla and Charybdis.
    You can see my predicament! 
     

 re. .30
>You can see my predicament!

  Sure, it's between your ears.

    re .23
    
    >The closest thing to a protection racket in the north is the British tax 
    >system, paying for British soldiers.
    
    What about the billions that the British government pours into the
    North every year. I can assure you that one of the biggest disadvantages 
    to a United Ireland for the residents of the North of all denominations
    would be the downgrading of their lavish social schemes, plus a tax 
    increase on the order of 10% on gross salary, if they join the Republic. 
    The tax system is not one of Irelands strong points by any stretch of the 
    imagination.
    
    Joe.

> re. .30
>>You can see my predicament!
>
>  Sure, it's between your ears.

It's really sad if that's the best reposte you can manage.  When all else
fails, resort to petty, infantile abuse as usual.

Chris.

    While the North will lose in British subsidies after withdrawal, they
    will gain something in both tourism and industry. These offsets may
    not be equal in magnitude, but after some years the North will be
    operating a more "real" economy, and not an artificially subsidized.
    Not to mention the benefit of demilitarizing the police state in NI.

re. .32

>downgrading of their lavish social schemes

 You may consider the dole a lavish advantage, but there
 are plenty of Nationalist who would rather have
 jobs, which isn't possible in a militarized police
 state, that still discriminates against Nationalists.
 Don't bother whining on about British fair employment
 legislation, cause it obviously isn't working.

              Mark

    re last.
    
    Mark.
    
    Your talents are truly wasted you should joing Sinn Fein.
    
    According to you if the British troops pull out of NI.  All the
    troubles stop.  Now everybody in NI gets a job as well.
    
    I now see how you support Gerry Adams. Your philosophies are the same.
    
    ie.  Gerry Adams instigated peace talks.  Gerry Adams has no links with
    the IRA.  Gerry Adams would achieve peace if it wasn't for the British
    Goverment.  Gerry Adams regrets !!!!!! Regrets !!! Regrets !!!
    
    Mark H. Believes ??????
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

re. .36

>According to you if the British troops pull out of NI.  All the
>troubles stop. 

 Nope, it's going to first take immediate negotiations
 of all parties involved, at the peace table.  Then
 a demilitarization can take place.  I would probably
 also help if the British stopped playing on loyalist
 fears, and stopped supplying loyalist terror groups
 with weapons and information.

                Mark

Looks like Britain may drop censorship laws as well, according to this 
mornings Glasgow Herald.


Mark