Conference tallis::celt

    re: .0
    
    <I really feel sorry for the innocents of that country who
    <are saddled with this garbage and slaughter. 
    
    I assume by the term "garbage", you're referring to the British 
    government's interference in a country where they don't belong, IRELAND. 
    
    I assume by the term "slaughter", you are referring to the presence of 
    the Brit Army who are using brutal, 19th century colonially repressive 
    measures against the Irish, (including a known shoot-to-kill policy)
    to try and solve a 20th century socio-economic problem.
    
    Before you dump any more of your half-cocked, half-baked ignorance in
    here, go to the north of Ireland and see for yourself firsthand what's
    really going up there. Or, read the literature by Amnesty International, 
    Helsinki Watch, or the TROOPS OUT! Movement, or the TIME TO GO group.
    But please, spare us any more of your breast-beating, melodramatic
    Brit crap propaganda. 

    Drotter, have you ever thought there might be more than just one side
    to this issue, or that perhaps a good bit of the information you are
    reading is not just a little propagandized?   Have you ever been a
    soldier and seen that side of the issue, living with the thought that
    in a hostile, guerrila environment you are a target whose only defense
    against a hidden, nameless, faceless enemy that strikes out from the
    cover of a civilian population, is to try to anticipate their moves and
    prevent them, or to maybe react fast enough when something does happen
    that you can stay alive.  It is real tough being a soldier or a cop,
    you have to play by rules that an enemy such as the IRA does not have
    to play by.  I GRANT YOU THAT THE BRITISH ARMIES' RULES ARE NOT AS
    STRINGENT AS MOST WOULD LIKE, BUT GRANTED THE LEVEL OF HOSTILITY THEY
    HAVE TO FACE, THEY ARE FAIRLY MINOR IF WE LOOK ON THIS AS A WAR.  In a
    real war, the British Army would do an unholy number on that place such
    as you have never conceived of.  Belfast would be levelled as would
    Armagh, there would be divisions in place with checkpoints everywhere
    and specific passes would be needed to get anywhere close to official
    buildings.  Forget Saracens, there would be Challenger Tanks in the
    streets and 50 caliber machine guns would be firing rather than
    rubber-bullet cannons.  And as for the door to door crap, the SAS was
    being nice when they were in-country back a few years, those guys are
    ghosts and vampires when they have a real mission to do, the IRA
    wouldn't see them, or hear them until it was far too late.  Northern
    Ireland is not a war-zone, if it was, you would not be able to go
    there, neither would I, nor would any foreigner without diplomatic or
    military purpose there.  I DO NOT SUPPORT ALL THE BRITISH ARMY'S
    ACTIONS THERE, BUT I THINK I UNDERSTAND SOME OF WHY IT HAPPENS.  
    
    Personally I think your motivations are pretty good in this, you have
    been there and seen the suffering of the people first hand, close-up
    and seen the most obvious cause, the security measures of the British
    Army.  You felt deeply for the suffering, as nearly anyone would in
    that position, but in your proximity to the situation and a particular
    element of it, you seem to have limited your perspective to the
    perspective of that particular element.  I see your perspective as
    being very black and white and the good-guys and bad-guys are pretty
    well laid out in your mind.  You are also very defensive in your
    position and seem to lash out at anyone who voices a perspective in any
    way different from your own.  In several of my notes concerning the
    situation in NI, I have stated that I do not place full blame on any
    one party and that I do not support all or even most of the actions of
    the British Government in NI and that I think all terrorist elements
    regardless of unionist or nationalist  alignment should be dealt with
    harshly since their actions are the very thing that make the
    near-martial law conditions in NI necessary, in effect, exacerbating
    this painful situation.  I am not on one side or the other of the
    argument, my "side" if I must have one, is the side of peace and
    cessation of violence and the oppression that currently exists in NI. 
    If I am ignorant, my ignorance lies in the fact that everywhere I have
    been, and everything that I have seen, I have never known violence to
    do anything but breed more violence, hatred and bitterness.  The Gulf
    War proves that, as does the situation in Israel, the conditions of our
    own inner cities in the U.S., et. al.   I also know a little bit about
    the military and the necessary mindset of the soldier, having,
    regretably, been one.  At the same time I also knew what it was like to
    be a civilian under the gun, my experience is not as deep as that of
    the Northern Irish people, but the taste did not agree with me.  If I
    am ignorant and simplistic, it lies in the fact that I have seen too
    many people die and am sick to death of it.   And my replies are not
    one-sided or propagandized, though you do not seem to read enough of
    them to see that, i cannot help that and I am sorry for it.
    
    Andrew
     

    re. 0
    >are saddled with this garbage and slaughter.  You can be sure there
    >will be some aggressive searches taking place in Armagh this week,
    
    "aggressive searches" ?
    
    I love that phrase. Do you really mean that the Army will now go into
    houses, wreck them, hold a gun to the face of the occupants, take the
    young men away for "questioning" (aka torture) and steal things from the
    house ? That happens every day mate, nothing new there. They would do
    it even if the IRA didn't ambush them.
    
    Re. 2.
    >that you can stay alive.  It is real tough being a soldier or a cop,
    >you have to play by rules that an enemy such as the IRA does not 
     =========================
    
    What rules were in force when three people were shot in the back in
    Gibralter ? Don't kid yourself mate. These British soldiers don't have
    any rules when they think they can get away with something.
    
      

    >> They would do it even if the IRA didn't ambush them.
    
    I doubt it. What proof do you have of this or are you just making
    another statement of inaccuracy ?
    
    -tony

    re -1
    >I doubt it. What proof do you have of this or are you just making
    
    If you really need proof just ask any nationalist family living in
    Northern Ireland. They'll tell you what it's like to have their home
    raided and wrecked for no real reason except to harass and TERRORISE
    them. I will grant you that yes, they (the BA) probably will step up
    their campaign of harrasement of Nationalist people in the coming days.
    
    
 >another statement of inaccuracy ?
    
    Please point out my other inaccurate statements. I'd like to fix them.
    

    
    >> If you really need proof just ask any nationalist family living in
    >> Northern Ireland. 
    
    No, I am asking *you* for *your* source of information. How do *you* know
    that ? I'd be interested in any statistical representations you have
    but if you are just guessing then please don't bother to reply.
    
    -tony

    I have ammended Andrew's base note, taking out the "breat-beating" and
    "propaganda" etc as defined by Joe Drotter.  It now reads...
    
    "A soldier was killed in Northern Ireland today. But it's OK beacuse he
    was only British."   End of News Flash.
    
    Mark

 re. .6

 Tony,
  I suggest you try searching this conference for the
 notes detailing the reports of human rights organizations,
 such as Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch. These 
 will present independent, and world respected sources of
 information on the kind of oppression the British visit
 upon the nationalists in northern Ireland.

 As for your title "Australia is a long way form Ireland",
 are you implying that an Australian should not have an 
 opinion on northern Ireland?  Do you as a British  
 citizen, understand that apartheid is wrong, even though
 you live a long way from South Africa?

                       Mark

    Britain is a long way from Ireland too, unless you're a
    good swimmer.                 
    
    Part of the problem in Northern Ireland is that the British
    and Irish gvts. have ignored the cancer of NI.  The first step
    in fixing the problem is admitting that it exists and facing up
    to it.  Discussion of the problem and its potential resolution
    from *all* parties is healthy.
                      
    /George

    Britain is 12 miles from Northern Ireland which is somewhat less than
    the distance I travel to work each morning.
    
    Joe

    And there speaks the independent and world-respected voice of Amnesty
    International.
    
    Still a member, Joe dear heart, or have they sussed you out as a closet
    Unionist?
    
    Joe

    It would be really nice if people would stop pointing their damn
    fingers and stop exacerbating the situation with inflammatory language
    and violent actions.  If all the enrgy and money that is spent now
    fighting in NI was put to use in discussions and problem solving, there
    would be no problem there.  Instead everyone screams and howls about
    who is to blame for the situation, all the while failing to see that
    their unwillingness to accept their own bit of the responsibility and
    their unwillingness to put the past behind them is preventing the 
    possibility of resolution and prolonging the situation.  Saying that
    the British Government is solely to blame is simplistic and naive,
    though I will grant you that the original cause is primarily Britain's
    fault; likewise, saying that the IRA is primarily to blame for the
    current violence, is also simplistic and irresponsible.  It is time for
    all parties involved to grow up.
    
    Andrew
    
    of

    re: .12
    
    All this from someone who, in SOAPBOX was referred to by a fellow Brit as:
    
    "...Joe Woodrow, our resident expert on the Northern Island issue."
    
    Rather like calling a bald man, "Curly."
    
    I particularly liked your comments about the Birmingham Six,
    
    "As for the Birmingham Six, I have little doubt in my own mind,
    having read and re-read Mullins book on the subject, that some, if not
    all, were as guilty as hell.  There was ample evidence, without either 
    the confessions or the forensics, to secure a conviction of conspiracy 
    to cause explosions against two of them and, IMHO, of being an accessory 
    before, during and after, against the remainder."
    
    Ah yes, the independent and world-respected voice of a former Brit Army 
    goons that enforced British "law and order" on IRISH people living in 
    IRELAND. 

    re: .13
    
    <If all the enrgy and money that is spent now fighting in NI was put 
    <to use in discussions and problem solving, there would be no problem 
    there. 
    
     Andrew, I couldn't agree more with you. As a matter of fact, two
    Brits wrote a book about the horrendous waste of money and resources
    by HMG on trying to bring about a military solution to NI, a problem that
    even British generals as far back as 1976 said could not be won.
    
    See a synopsis of this book in note 1033.40. The book is called
    "Northern Ireland: The Political Economy of Conflict."
    
    And too, there is note 1156.15 written by an NI reporter showing how
    HMG would rather throw $4 Billion dollars on military hardware for
    NI, while only spending $2 Billion for education and re-training for
    the 31,000 coal miners it just dumped on the slag heap of life.
    
    Figures, doesn't it? The Brit government, and I dare say a fair amount
    of Brit racists, just can't stomach the thought of finally being kicked
    out of its last colony - and would rather spend BILLIONS just for the
    pleasure of continuing to sadistically torment the Irish.
    
    Really no different from any schoolyard bully I've ever seen: that use 
    their physical advantage to torment the peacable. 

>    British people, (most of whom don't even know where Ireland is, let alone
>    have ever been there), refuse to accept the fact that this wasted
>    senseless death is a direct result of interference in the affairs of
>    another country.

     You claim to be something of an expert on the subject of Northern
     Ireland.  I find this surprising taking into account the level of
     ignorance about the inhabitants of GB & NI as displayed in this
     quote.

     I can only surmise that your offensive, racist comments are merely
     attempts to provoke argument for your own entertainment.	

 
 Last night a catholic man was murdered when shots were fired through a
 window of his house in Loughgall, Co Armagh. His infant son was hurt
 in the attack but not too badly. Police believe it was a sectarian 
 attack by loyalists.

 A recent article in the Sunday Press by Ann Cadwallader say's that
 the UDA is now as well armed as the IRA and regards all catholics
 as legitamate targets. The article stated that a big shipment of arms
 from South Africa which was destined for the UDA was safely landed in
 Ireland by the organisation because of a British "Intellegence" blunder.

 It seems to me that while constitutional nationalists constantly and
 consistantly condemn republican violence, many unionists are at best
 ambivalent towards loyalist violence. Recent remarks made by John Tayler
 and Peter Robinson linking the SDLP with IRA violence are, in my opinion,
 very sinister. Members of the SDLP are considered legitimate targets by
 the UDA and the homes of two SDLP concillers were attacked recently by
 loyalists.  
 

Denis,

The fact that the loyalist para-militaries have been growing in strength 
and numbers for some time is evidenced by the upsurge in loyalist sectarian 
murders during recent years, which now exceed those of the IRA and other 
nationalist para-military groups.  The security forces are not aided in 
their efforts to contain loyalist violence by being under constant threat 
from the IRA.

I do not believe such people as the loyalist para-militaries have their 
agenda set or require any encouragement from Unionist or Democratic 
Unionist politicians.

As regards Unionist politicians, they are much a reflection of yourself.  
They ritually condemn all violence while concentrating on that of the IRA.  
For myself, I do not bother to comment upon specific incidents by either 
side as, on the whole, it is a waste of time.

It is axiomatic that the successful smuggling of weaponry into any part of 
the UK is a failure of intelligence.  This is as true whether it is from 
South Africa or Libya and into Northern Ireland or the British mainland.

Councillors from both sides of the divide have been subjected to attack.  
The reasons why so many of the attacks against nationalist politicians have 
been unsuccessful are the same as for unionist politicians; ie they lie in 
the efforts of the security forces.  I have yet to see the security forces 
being allowed any credit from you or from others for this.  Yet I have 
never seen them fail to be blamed when such attacks have been successful.

Joe

    
    I'm afraid you'll just have to forgive my denying the security
    forces any credit for thwarting attacks on nationalist councillors.
    If it weren't for the fact that they have co-operated so much with
    loyalist paramilitaries in the past, perhaps I would be more generous.
    
    I have heard so often from you and others that loyalist paramilitaries
    are easier for the security forces to contain because it's easier to
    infiltrate them etc. etc. Yet in the past two years, twenty six
    catholics have been murdered in the Tyrone/South Derry area and nary
    a one has been charged with the murders. Never, to my knowledge, has 
    there been a shoot to kill policy for loyalists, no SAS ambushes.
    
    As for myself, I condemn IRA violence. I would like them to lay down
    their arms. But it seems to me that in this forum and others, IRA
    violence get's all the condemnation/coverage while loyalist violence
    is hardly mentioned. 
    
    To go off on a tangent, did anyone see last night's Spotlight programme
    on BBC1. I just caught the tail end of it. It seemed to deal with the
    fears of the protestant population regarding the increase in the
    catholic population. If anyone saw it all I would be grateful if they
    would summarise it here.
    
    Thanks.......Denis.

    re: .17
    
    Wot 'ave we 'ere, cheps? Why, it's another Brit without a clue.
    
    How droll.
    
    You're just another denizen of Britain who proves what I said earlier:
    
    Because of ignorance, racism, and a disgusting jingoistic British
    colonialism that created the failed statelet of NI, a majority of 
    the British people refuse to see that continued military occupation 
    of IRELAND, will only bring continued resistance by the indigenous 
    Irish population to British colonial interference in the affairs 
    of IRELAND.
    
    Then again, I forgot how it is a national pasttime in Britain to 
    flaunt ones ignorance when it comes to Ireland and the Irish. 
    Everyday it seems someone's always trying to top his neighbour in this
    category. Imagine: "competitive ignorance." Wot an odd thing.

re .22.

     This sort of petty abuse doesn't really convince anyone.  I find
     it interesting how you can draw this sort of conclusion about
     someone you know nothing about.  I'm not going to get embroiled
     in a petty slanging match, I'll just say that my experience
     doesn't match up with your claims.

     It would be appreciated if you didn't judge people by your own
     standards.

    re: .23
    
    The only thing predictable around here Hedley, are Brits.
    
    <I'll just say that my experience doesn't match up with your claims.
    
    Well then, Do tell us: have you ever been to the Bogside or West Belfast to
    see for yourself, firsthand, what your government is doing to the
    Irish nationalist community there?  
    
    And like most Brits, do you approve of your government's colonial
    interference in the affairs of the Irish with such crude and clumsy
    methods as: the BA's shoot-to-kill policy, so-called 'emergency' 
    legislation, 'special' powers, internment & torture, Brian Nelson and
    the dirty-tricks campaign, supergrass trials, no jury Diplock courts, 
    non-stop surveillance, strip searching, assassination, and of course 
    the ever-popular house raids. Etc. Really, I think we should be told.
    
    Oh BTW, it doesn't count if you've been to the aforementioned places,
    all the while poking the barrel of gun into the ribs of an Irish 
    nationalist, enforcing so-called British "law & order" on (what your 
    British Army goons like to refer to as) those 'Fenian b*st*rds'. OK?
    
                                                                         

    Denis raises an interesting point.  When was the last shoot to kill
    incident against loyalists?  There never was.  How many British
    soldiers are actually serving time for killing Irish civilians?
    I think there are only 2 or 3 currently. Prior to last year there
    was only one - a Pvt. Ian Thain who was then later released.  How
    many Irish are serving time for killing British soldiers?  In the
    many hundreds.  Agreed that the British soldiers are in a more tenuous
    position given the fact they are fighting a guerilla war - although
    the law must be fair, and convicted British soldiers should be
    prosecuted as diligently as the IRA.
    
    The scary thought is that Loyalist paramilitary violence will
    continue growing as the Nationalists population grows.  Ireland
    doesn't need another Bosnia/Croatia in its backyard.  That's why
    it is imperative that the British and Irish governments start
    resolving NI now, before the problem grows deeper.  I think it
    would be in the Loyalists best interest now, to broker some
    power-sharing agreement with the Nationalists, instead of
    waiting 10-15 years from now when Nationalists power grows.
    
    If a fair and equitable solution is not reached, over the years you
    will see the violence migrate to the Republic too.
    
    Re .10: Joe, you must be a good swimmer.  I can but swim one mile,
    let alone 12.  ;v)

    Strange we heard not a murmer of complaint from you while the IRA was
    killing more protestants or even while they were killing three times as
    many catholics than the loyalist para-militaries.  Trouble is, Denis,
    that no matter what the Irish may do to the Irish, in your eyes it is
    always the fault of the British.
    
    With regard to the ethnic time-bomb ticking in Northern Ireland, I have
    pointed this out to you on frequent previous occasions while urging the
    government of the Republic to do more to reconcile the Unionists to
    eventual unification.  I have said it before, but I will say it again:
    Only the Irish can unite Ireland, and Ireland will never be united
    until the people of Ireland are united and the people of Ireland will
    never be united until the Republic ceases its endeavours to coerce the
    people of the North into union.  In the matter of a united Ireland, the
    British are an irrelevence.
    
    Joe    

    Joe, the British are anything but an irrelevance.  If the British government
    continues propping up the loyalists regime with money, military power,
    economic aid, etc.  the loyalists have less reason to engage in
    meaningful discussion for power-sharing with the Nationalists.
    
    Although the Irish government should and could become a more secular
    state, that is mere window dressing.  The Irish govt. are in no way
    going to upset the British government with outrights calls for withdrawal.
    30% of Irish exports go to Britain.  They aren't going to rock the boat
    over NI.                                                                     
    
    Again the sad fact is that the violence will continue.

     re .24

     My knowledge of the situation is based on the views expressed by
     various people I know who either live there or who visit on a
     reasonably frequent basis.

     It seems to me that replying in a rational manner is likely to
     be a waste of time, as this note will only end up being used as
     source for more gratuitous abuse.  If you really believe that
     this is the correct way to go about improving people's attitudes
     towards the situation then so be it.  But count me out.

    re: .28
    
    
    A rather lame excuse, don't you think? 
    
    There are enough references in here to more accurate and credible
    sources (such as Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch, TROOPS OUT, 
    TIME TO GO, etc.) about what's happening in NI than your current 
    method of second-hand information, and one-sided opinions from visitors - 
    who I'm sure never stray into nationalist ghettos.
    
    If you haven't made the effort by now - to find out for yourself,
    firsthand about the dirty little war your government is waging against 
    Irish nationalists in their own country of Ireland, then nothing I say 
    or do in here is going to pull your head out of the sand.
    
    Nice try - to put the blame on someone else.
    
    Then again, I did say earlier: the only thing predicable around here
    are you Brits. Wot with your "collective stupidity" and "competitive
    ignorance". Have a nice weekend. 

In my younger days, I might have managed it, D'Arcy.  It would have been bloody 
cold, though, and I understand there to be some nasty currents.  8^)

With regard to the alleged 'shoot to kill', it is symptomatic not of a 
'dual standard' but of entirely different circumstances.  Over the twenty 
three years of the conflict, there has only been a single instance I can 
recall of the security forces coming under any sort of fire from the 
protestant para-militaries.  This occurred during the protests arising out 
of the Angle-Irish agreement and consisted of a single shot fired from a 
handgun through the window of the house of an RUC man.

Therefore the security forces have no possible pretext for opening fire on 
anyone they believe to be a protestant paramilitary because they have no 
possible grounds, even if their suspicions are well founded, to be fearful 
of their own safety. 

On the other hand, the security forces regularly come under fire from the 
IRA and over 600 members have been killed and I don't know how many 
wounded.

Therefore the security forces have a possible pretext for opening fire on 
anyone they believe to be a member of the IRA because they have excellent 
grounds, if their suspicions are well founded, to be fearful for their own 
safety.

I assure you that, were the loyalist para-militaries to adopt a policy of 
shooting at the security forces, you would very quickly find the security 
forces starting to shoot back.

Joe

    To say that the British Government 'props up' the loyalist regime is
    somewhat innacurate.  To start with, there hasn't been a 'loyalist
    regime' since Stormont was prorogued.  Furthermore, Northern Ireland
    was a nett contributor to the British Exchequer until the late 40s when
    the introduction of the welfare state made it a nett beneficiary. 
    Nevertheless, it remained less of a per capita beneficiary than either
    Scotland or Wales until the current troubles.
    
    One could just as well say that the Republican government is 'propped
    up' by Brussels as Ireland has always been a nett beneficiary of the EC
    budget.
    
    I am not entirely sure what you mean by 'military power'.  If you are
    suggesting that, without British support, the IRA and the Republic
    would eventually succeed in forcing the unification of Ireland by
    military means, you may possibly be right.  However, I do not believe
    that adopting such a Serbian solution would necessarily lead to peace.
    
    Joe 

    Call it what you will, but the British government has maintained
    the status quo from the point at which Stormont was prorogued -
    that being Loyalist control over the 6 counties, now with the help
    of British forces.  
    
    /George

    Your problem, George, is that you are unable to distinguish between a
    spade and anything else.
    
    8^)
    
    Joe

    Once upon a time in the land of Hushabye,
    Round about those wondrous days of yore,
    They came across a sort of box,
    Bound up with chains and locked with locks
    And labelled, 
    "Kindly do not touch, It's War."
    
    Decree was issued round about,
    All with a flourish and a shout,
    With a gaily colored mascot tripping lightly on before,
    "Don't fiddle with this deadly box,
    Don't break the chains or pick the locks,
    And please, don't ever try to play around with war."
    
    Now the children understood,
    For children happen to be good,
    And they were just as good in those wondrous days of yore.
    They never tried to pick the locks,
    Or break into that deadly box,
    They never tried to play around with war.
    
    Mommies didn't either,
    Aunties, sisters, grannies neither,
    For they were quiet and pretty and sweet in those wondrous days of
    yore.
    Very much the same as now,
    Not the ones to blame somehow,
    For opening up that deadly box of war.
    
    But someone did,
    Someone battered in the lid,
    And spilled the insides out across the floor,
    A sort of bouncy, bumpy, ball,
    Made up of all the guns and flags, and shouts and horrors and death, that
    Go with war.
    
    It bounced right out and went bashing all about,
    Bumping into everything in store,
    But what is sad and most unfair,
    Is that it doesn't really seem to care,
    Much who it bumps, or why, or what, or for.
    
    It bumps the children mainly,
    And I'll tell you this quite plainly,
    It bumps them every day and more, and more,
    And leaves them dead, and burned, and dying,
    Thousands of them, sick and crying,
    "Cause when it bumps, it's really very sore.
    
    Now there's a way to stop the ball,
    It isn't difficult at all,
    All it takes is wisdom.
    And I'm absolutely sure
    That we could get the ball back into The Box,
    Bind up the chains, and lock the locks,
    But no-one seems to want to save the children anymore.
    
    Well, that's the way it all appears
    cause it's been bouncing 'round for years and years,
    In spite of all the wisdom wizzed since those wondrous days of Yore,
    When they cam across that deadly box,
    Bound up with chains, and locked with locks,
    And labelled,
    "Kindly do not touch... It's War."
    
    
    "The Box"
    Lascelles
    
    
    Submitted by Andrew Priestley for the sake of those whose voices, so
    often are drowned out by the shouts, hollers, arguments and bigotry of
    those older and supposedly more wise.
    
    Peace be with and between us all.
    
    

    re.   <<< Note 1185.30 by PEKING::WOODROWJ "The Purple People Eater" >>>
    
>I assure you that, were the loyalist para-militaries to adopt a policy of 
>shooting at the security forces, you would very quickly find the security 
>forces starting to shoot back.
    
    Your note seems to imply that as long as the loyalist para-militaries don't 
    shoot at the BA/RUC then it's ok for them to do what they like. The
    BA/RUC/SAS don't always wait to be fired upon (e.g. Gibralter) by the
    IRA, why should they wait for the loyalists to shoot at them. If they
    were indeed true "security" forces they would be taking the initiative
    and shooting a few loyalists in the back as they go off to murder
    catholics. I think you know as well as I do that if the RUC really
    tried hard it could identify the majority of loyalist killers - I don't
    think it would have to look too far.
    
    Tony.

    
    Dortter,
    
    I'm afraid your statement :-
    
    >> And like most Brits, do you approve of your government's colonial
    >> interference in the affairs of the Irish 
    
    Shows just how ignorant you really are. Whilst you sit on your butt
    spouting all this crap you really have no understanding of how the
    British people feel about the situation. The vast majority of British 
    agree (myself included) that the troops shouldn't be there in the first 
    place. 
    
    Open your eyes drotter, you might learn something. 
    
    -tony

    
So, no ambushes for the loyalist killers who go out to murder innocent
catholics because said killers hold no danger to the Security Forces. 
They only kill catholics after all.

Re: .35 - Tony
        
>    Your note seems to imply that as long as the loyalist para-militaries 
>   don't shoot at the BA/RUC then it's ok for them to do what they like. 
>   The BA/RUC/SAS don't always wait to be fired upon (e.g. Gibralter) by 
>   the IRA, why should they wait for the loyalists to shoot at them. If 
>   they were indeed true "security" forces they would be taking the 
>   initiative and shooting a few loyalists in the back as they go off to 
>   murder catholics. I think you know as well as I do that if the RUC 
>   really tried hard it could identify the majority of loyalist killers - 
>   I don't think it would have to look too far.

I did not say that, Tony, nor did I in the least imply it as I think you 
are well aware.  Here, in the UK, it is customary for the police to go 
about unarmed.  Where, however, a criminal arms himself and threatens the 
police, then he fairly often winds up getting dead.  This does not mean 
that it is OK for the remainder of the criminal population 'to do what they 
like'.  The fact that there are a large number of 'loyalists' currently 
sharing imprisonment with nationalists gives the lie to your allegation. 

You are perfectly correct in saying that the RUC know the identity of the 
majority of loyalist killers, just as they know the identity of the 
majority of nationalist killers.  They are common knowledge within both of 
the threatened communities.  It is, however, one thing to know and another 
to prove even to the satisfaction of even a Diplock court.  The complaint 
you raise vis-a-vis loyalist killers is echoed equally by the loyalist 
community vis-a-vis nationalist killers.  

Until members of both communities summon up the courage to start pointing 
the finger and giving evidence, they can hold peace rallies and marches 
until they are blue in the face.  Nothing will come of it.  Indeed, less 
will come of it as the courts are becoming increasingly reluctant to 
convict on police evidence alone.

Joe

    A 3 year old boy was killed by one of two bombs set off by the IRA at
    lunchtime on Saturday.  They were located in a busy shopping centre in
    Warrington (major DEC location in UK).  The bombs were planted close by
    so that as people fled in panic from the first bomb they would run into
    the second explosion.
    
    Another boy, 12 years old, is not expected to survive.  He has a
    fractured skull and is unrecognisable after having most of his face
    blown off.
    
    In the words of this boys mother:
    
    "I have got a son who is not going to live, a good looking 12 year old
    boy pulled apart..... and for what?  I just feel empty."
    
    "I have no words to describe them.  We are losing a son we loved,
    that's what matters.  I don't know what motivated these people.  They
    are inhuman, wiping out a life and ruining a family.  They are taking
    away the boy we loved.  To do this in the main shopping area on a
    Saturday with so many people.......I have got no words.... I can't
    describe them.  They are just inhuman callous killers."
    
    Sad, very sad indeed.
    	
    		Brian.

    
    Re: .39
    
    I just have to say this.  Bombing shopping centers in the name
    of a political struggle is shameless and cowardly.  It is no
    patriotic act.  It is done by murderers who, for lack of backbone,
    hide behind politics.  The struggle for reunification in Ireland
    may be a noble cause, but there was nothing noble about this act.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    The Ulster Freedom Fighters have claimed reponsibility for the murder
    of 5 catholics this week in two separate incidents.  
    
    Early in the week 4 building workers were murdered.  I heard on the
    Radio at lunch time that arrests had been made in connection with these
    murders.  Last night a teenager was shot dead in a shop in West
    Belfast.  A second was wounded and witnesses said the gunman tried to
    shoot the wounded man again but his gun jammed.
    
    The killing goes on and on and on yet a solution is no closer.  How
    long must the innocent people of Ireland and the UK go on suffering ?
    
    		Brian.