Conference tallis::celt

    Reminds one of the Black and Tans.
    
    

    I worked once for a few weeks in a bar in Tottenham in London. There
    was a young girl one night who came in and asked me was I IRISH, I did
    not expect what followed.
    
    She said her brother was in Ireland, I thought a friendly conversation
    would follow. She said he was in NI. I asked her politely what he was
    doing, she replied "he gone over to kill little Irish b******s".
    

    On the same vein, anyone who saw the documentary " The Dogs of War",
    about ex-British Army mercenaries currently fighting in Yugoslavia
    would have reason to be disturbed. One soldier, on the Croatian side,
     came up with the idea of planting bombs in Croatian territory to
    simulate a Serbian bombardment and end any possible cease-fire.
    
    The soldiers interviewed. spoke of their desire to kill, of their
    total unsuitability to civilian life and of problems they had at home.
    It was alluded that Northern Ireland was used for the same reason, as a
    place to escape to if you had problems at home. Others who freely
    admitted joining the Army for love of killing also referred to Northern 
    Ireland as the only place where the "action" was.
    
    One has to question the quality of Britains "peacekeepers" after
    viewing that program, these soldiers are no longer under the control of
    the Army authorities, so have no reason to lie.
    
    BTW, Ren�, I wonder what would be her reaction if you didn't let her
    know you were Irish. Some people just love to stir the old hatreds up
    when they discover what they consider to be an easy target. My
    favourite English phrase is when they try to praise the Irish and say 
    something like ".....even the Irish could understand it..." etc.
    
    

    Yeah, I saw that Dogs Of War documentary.  It is quite frightening
    that people of that mentality are sent to NI to keep the peace.  It is
    the fact they get pleasure from what they do that is most worrying.
    
    		Brian.

    re.2
    >would follow. She said he was in NI. I asked her politely what he was
    >doing, she replied "he gone over to kill little Irish b******s".
    
    You should have replied :
    
    
    "I hope he comes home to you soon...."
    
    
    
    
    		"IN A BODYBAG !!!!".
    
    
    That usually reminds them that it's not a game they're playing and that
    Irish people are actually human !
    
    
    Tony.

   <<< Note 1084.5 by BONKIN::BOYLE "Clich�s - Avoid them like the plague" >>>
    
    Tony,
    
    I did say to her that I hope he got a bullet where he deserved it, in
    the back of the head. After I left the pub I got jumped from behind by 
    3 BRAVE Englishmen and kicked around. I survived.
    
    In the same area another day I was in a Turkish Cypiot restaurant near
    the pub with some Turkish Cypriots I knew and there was 3 guys and a
    girl at a table opposite. The girl asked me if I was Irish and when I
    answered yes, a glass came flying in my direction and the 3 guys came
    running for us. The result was one through the window, one broken arm,
    and the other who ran for hell and no real casualties on the Turkish 
    Cypriot/Irish side.
    
    I could never understand this behaviour. 

    I was once driving up Belfast, at the time I worked as a Sales
    Executive for a French company. I had a bad sales day and arrived at a
    army checkpoint. The soldier asked me to open the boot. I had some
    exhibition display boards in the booth of the car. He asked me what a
    particular item was and I replied it was a time switch. He shouted over
    to another soldier "We got a f****n terrorist here". I replied "What
    does a F****N terrorist look like". I spent 17 hours in Royal Avenue
    Barracks, a hour of questions and the rest of the time alone, they were
    trying to frighten me. It just made me dislike them more.
    
    I once met a soldier at a checkpoint and he asked me to open
    everything, he was the ONLY soldier who ever said "Sorry about thios, I
    have to do it, my captain is looking" or some such thing. The rest were
    either abusive.
    
    Once while up in Stewardstown in a bar called the Hunting Lodge, the
    army came in, about 20 soldiers with their guns, there were only 5
    people in the bar. A military policewomen asked me for identification,
    I was so pissed off with them, I let the driving license drop on the
    ground so she had to pick it up. She came back an hour later with
    another patrol. This only provokes people to dislike them more and
    more.
    
    

    
    My reaction to this is the same reaction I got watching the
    video of the Los Angeles police beating the s**t out of
    Rodney King. No one can claim that this problem is unique
    to Northern Ireland. What do you do when the forces of "law
    and order" violate the law themselves.
    
    But the only way to tackle problems like this is through
    the legal route. The men who pumelled King are back on duty.
    During the riots that followed their acquittal, it is reckoned
    that at least 10 innocent blacks were shot by police. It
    seems to me that the harassment of blacks on the streets of the
    USA is at least as bad as anything suffered in Northern Ireland.
    Amnesty International is indicting the Los Angeles police for
    human rights abuse and near-torture of suspects. 
    
    It is though the dull grind of public protest, without the macho 
    romance of killing soldiers or cops, that problems like this will
    be solved. What is the alternative? Cop-killing? Soldier-killing?
    Voices hae been raised in the US (like Sister Souljah) for killing
    of whites. Is that the answer?
    
    The question posed is "Where is Justice?". It is NOT in "a life
    for a life".
    
    The correct answer to the girl who said her brother was in 
    Ireland to kill "Irish b****s" is "Well, then he is a murderer in
    the making, because he is only supposed to fire in self-defence" 
    
    The problem with the mercenaries is the same as the Vietnam vets
    who couldn't adapt to peace either. Governments who employ men for
    their killing abilities should also supply them with counselling
    and "de-programming" when they complete their service.
    
    Toby

    Toby,
    
    One point.  Sister Souljah was widely misquoted in the media.  She did
    not advocate the killing of whites, she merely asked why no one cared
    when blacks were killing blacks, but when blacks began killing/
    attacking whites during the riots, it suddenly became a big issue.
    
    Why is a black life, an Irish life, a Protestant or Catholic life,
    deemed less worthy of survival by some?  I can't tell you, but it's a
    sad fact that continues to contribute to the troubles in the USA and
    NI.
    
    -BJ
    

    re: .10
    
    � One point.  Sister Souljah was widely misquoted in the media.  
    
    She was not misquoted, but she later claimed that her statements took
    on a different meaning in the context of the whole discussion.
    
    --Jay

    
    One point I would like to add about the lady who said her brother
    was in Ireland to "kill Irish b******ds", is that on the evidence
    I see she is in a very small minority of English people. Don't
    forget either that the U.K. has suffered in the "Troubles" - just
    look at the IRA bombs in Birmingham, Guildford, Brighton, Harrods
    and London (many times): all have claimed many innocent lives.
    
    To see REAL racism, from what I have read, a visit to Moslem
    ghettos in France or Turkish slums in Germany would probably
    be instructive for purposes of comparison. Yet Britain has
    not got any Jean-Marie Le Pens or Neo-Nazis coming to power
    on the backs of racism against the Irish. Because there is
    very little racism against the Irish in the U.K., DESPITE
    the IRA campaign.
    
    One reason is that most English have at this stage got Irish
    blood, or Irish relatives. If the British have a fault against
    us Irish, it is their failure to understand why we do not want
    to be like them, that we value our differences too much. That
    has led to British misunderstanding of the Irish, leading to
    a ham-fisted approach lurching from indifference to awkward
    meddling.
    
    However, there are signs that the British and Irish are on
    a convergent course of mutual self-respect and tolerance.
    We could all do with a future where we can take the British
    as they are. And they can do the same for us.
    
    Toby

    re. .12
    
    Toby mate, have you been asleep all these years or have you been taking
    something illegal for those dreams ???
    
    >........................................ Because there is
    >very little racism against the Irish in the U.K., ........
    
    Ren� and others have already given you examples of racism against the
    Irish, and that's only from a small population of noters. As well as
    these examples there is also the more subtle form of racism, the
    so-called 'Irish Joke'. This you will have heard from almost *every*
    English 'comedian'. You don't have to beat people up in the street to
    be racist.
    
    >One reason is that most English have at this stage got Irish
    >blood, or Irish relatives. ..................................
    
    A little bit of an exageration I think. Most English people would be
    hard pressed to name the capital of Ireland.
    
    >If the British have a fault against
    >us Irish, it is their failure to understand why we do not want
    >to be like them, that we value our differences too much. 
    
    I agree with you there, that's certainly ONE of their faults.
    
    Tony
    
    

    
    For heavens sake, Tony, ever hear of the Kerry joke? Just because
    we tell Kerry jokes in Ireland does not mean we are racially
    prejudiced against Kerry people. And where is your famous Irish
    sense of humour?
    
    As for them not knowing the capital of Ireland, how many Americans
    can spot Nicaragua on a map? Or know that Ottawa (not Totonto) is
    the capital of Canada? Insularity is not racism.
    
    There IS racism in the UK, but it is mostly directed against
    Blacks, not the Irish. Of course there are individuals who dislike
    the Irish for no good reason, but that does not amount to 
    organised racism.
    
    Toby

    The joke in a my note was taken very very badly by an English chap in
    Geneva.
    
    We were at a party, I told the joke in French. There was a girl from
    England, a girl from Honduras, a girl from Sweden and they all laughed
    hearthly. The English guys reaction was very agressive, "Is this pisss
    the English off night", "Where are you from?", "Where did you learn
    those jokes". I told him at first I was Spanish and he continued to
    become more eggressive in his questions, "How did a Spaniard learn
    these jokes".
    
    He is not the only one. At least the Irish can take a joke.
    
    Ren�

    Toby,
    
    As usual you are talking through your ass. I was in another pub and an
    English guy kept trying hard to pick a fight, we were 2 Irish and and
    English guy and the other English guy was in a gang. He kept saying
    "there is a terrible smell around here", hoping we would react and then
    him and his gang of 20 could use that as an excuse to beat the shit out
    of us.
    
    Brave, the Englishman with a crowd.
    
    Ren�

    
    Rene,
    
    I think you should become more aware of the chip on your own
    shoulder. English people are no braver or more cowardly than
    any other.
    
    I have visited the UK innumerable times and never met any racism,
    which I would define as decision-making on the basis of ethnic
    or racial origin. In my experience, no one is completely free of
    racial bias, however when we allow our biases to take over from
    our rational minds, then the results are usually destructive.
    
    In your case, I would surmise the thugs you encountered were
    looking to pick a fight with anyone, using Irishness was as
    good an excuse as any. If you were French, the remarks would
    have been about "Frogs", if you were German, the remarks would
    have been about "Krauts" ..... and so on.
    
    Of course, Britain is not the only country to have louts of 
    this type, is it?
    
    Toby

    Any minority in any community in any country in the world suffer racial
    abuse.  Unfortunately it is a fact of life.  The Irish in the England
    suffer less racial abuse than any other ethnic minority in the country
    and yet have the largest population of all the ethnic minorities - a
    sort of majority minority....
    
    I live in England and my mother is Irish - she can not remember one
    instance of racial abuse in all the 35 years she has been in the
    country.
    
    During those years we have had hundreds of visits from Irish relatives
    and they all love coming - most who visit come back again and again,
    they love the hospitality they are shown.  Not one has complained of
    racial abuse.
    
    I am not saying racial abuse against the Irish doesn't exist but it is
    on a much smaller scale than you guys are trying to imply.  Spare a
    thought for the other communities which are visibly different and
    therefore suffer large amounts of abuse often making their lives
    a misery.
    
    		Brian.

    
    I thoroughly endorse what Brian is saying ..... not only have
    I never met any racial feelings directed against my Irishness
    while I visited the U.K., but I have many personal friends and
    acquaintances who are Irish-born and who have made successful
    and fulfilling careers for themselves in Britain.
    
    Toby
    

    Um, I can find Nicaragua on a map....  :)
    
    
    kim the american