Conference tallis::celt

    
    Just to comment on my own note, the major concern is that the
    8th Amendment (called the "pro-life amendment") locks the
    Catholic Ethos into ALL hospitals rules.
    
    As the judges who interpret the amendment are all Catholic and
    subscribe to its teachings, this has fast become a reality.
    Notice how the counselling centres in Ireland were closed down.
    The only dissenting voice came from a woman, Miss Justice
    Mella Carroll of the High Court.
    
    Toby

    
These "pro-life" twits make me sick. When are they going to take their 
morality out of my face? Why do they feel the need to have everybody
live by their own standards of morality. I haven't fully read into 
the Maastricht Treaty issues but the fact that the "pro-life" lobby
are voting against it, is good enough reason for me to vote yes.

    Thanks Toby. It's yet another example of the unhealthy relationship
    between the catholic church and the government. I have always
    maintained that the church has far too much power in Ireland, this
    story is further proof.
    
    Personally I would like to see the church banned. They are more
    sinister and dangerous than the Moonies.
    
    Tony.

    
    "Masterminds of the Right" should be required reading for all
    who are interested in this topic. Be warned - it is unashamedly
    partisan, but I have not heard it refuted yet.
    
    It tells how a group of middle-aged, Catholic, conservative
    men set out to prevent liberal changes in the Republic's
    constitution and laws relating to reproduction - and
    succeeded. These men were all members of Catholic lay
    organisations like the Knights of Columbanus or Opus
    Dei, but operated through a collection of groups like
    SPUC, PLAC, Family Solidarity .... etc.
    
    These men were not rednecks - they are engineers, doctors 
    lawyers, professors ..... highly educated and influential.
    
    Along the way they have had the support of some women, but
    predominantly this group is male. Sadly, all too often
    token women are pushed to the fore as spokespersons.
    
    Emily O'Reilly gives a frightening picture of these men's
    vision of Ireland:
    
    		No access to artificial birth control counselling
    		No supply of condoms, IUDs, some contraceptive pills,
    			diaphragms, or spermacides
    		"Natural" birth control only
    		Censorship of books, films and videos
    		No access to health books promoting conraception
    		No funding for Rape Crisis Centres (they promote
    			a "contraceptive mentality")
    		No women's Health Clinics (same reason)
    		No abortion for Rape Victims
    		No sex education in schools
    		No divorce
    		Active prosecution of homosexuals
    		
    Abortion is of course to be absolutely prohibited - but
    if you can afford the fare, just hop over to Liverpool or
    London. 
    
    Read this list and you can see that a frightening large part
    of the agenda has been carried out, or has almost been 
    carried out. For example, Dublin's Rape Crisis Centre came
    within days of shutting down last year for lack of government
    funding. The government has postponed several times legislation on
    legalising homosexual acts in private (as we are bound to do
    be European law), laws to liberalise availability to condoms,
    a White Paper on Divorce ..... the list goes on....
    
    The irony is that the government hopes within weeks to sit
    down with Protestant Unionists and discuss a New Ireland
    ..... meanwhile there exists blatant proof that "Home
    Rule means Rome Rule".
    
    Toby

    It is plain that these people want a return to the bad old days of
    large working class families and the poverty and exploitation it
    entails. If one is to imagine the free availability of contraceptives
    in Ireland, along with the necessary information to use them, one can
    see that the pool of available cheap labour will eventually dry up as
    families become smaller and the working class have less children.
    Smaller families implies that each family can spare more money for
    education and advancement and, so , their offspring will come into
    competition for the higher professional jobs.
    
    This terrifies the professional and upper classes.
    
    While the far right reaction to family planning may, on the surface,
    appear to be motivated by religious beliefs, I have the distinct
    impression that it has more to do with economics than religion and with
    maintaining a pool of cheap, ready, willing ,uneducated and docile labour
    for the upper classes.
    
    Of course the biggest victims in all this would be the women who would
    end up looking after all the extra children that restrictions on
    contraceptives would inevitably create. Of course, the rich ( mostly
    male )  will only think of all that lovely cheap labour in 20 years
    time, ripe for the picking.....
    
    

    
    John, while we are on the same side, I do not agree that economics
    are at the basis of the action of this group. I think they are
    agents of a male patriarchal vision of the world which demands
    that women's fertility be rigidly controlled. It is women's access
    to contraception and abortion that had led to freedom of choice
    for women in how they run their lives. If this access is
    controlled, then women can be controlled also.
    
    The Catholic Church is the most vocal agent of this patriarchy,
    and these men's stance can be shown to be congruent with Catholic 
    doctrine. They also provide a stalking horse for the Catholic bishops, 
    who can sound plausible and agreeable while letting Opus Dei and Co.
    do the dirty work.
    
    Toby

Well I dont know if I believe there is any other motive other than to
create a catholic state for a catholic people. Perhaps there are economic 
reasons. But whatever the motives, it certainly is frightening.

    
    Tony,
    
    You wouldn't happen to know what part of the country Emily O'Reilly
    lives?
    
    Rgds 
    Neil

    re. .8
    >Tony,
    >
    >You wouldn't happen to know what part of the country Emily O'Reilly
    >lives?
    
    
    Sorry mate but I never heard of her until I read about this book last 
    Sunday. The article didn't mention her address.
    
    
    
    
    There was an article in the Australian newspapers last week about a
    'Secret Organisation' which has worked deviously against abortion,
    divorce and contraception in Ireland. It mentions John O'Reilly (no
    relation) who has been outed by this book 'Masterminds of the Right'.
    The article takes up almost a page and quotes a few examples from the
    book. Mr. O' Reilly is connected with that sinister organisation, "The
    Knights of St. Columbus". I've heard of these before but don't know too
    much. Can anyone post some more information?
    
    The article has prompted the usual questions from my Australian
    workmates :
    
    "WHAT ! Not allowed a divorce in Ireland ?"
    "WHAT ! No abortions or even information about abortions allowed"
    "WHAT ! You can't even buy condoms off a supermarket shelf?"
    
    If these things are freely available to men and women in the rest of
    the world why aren't they available in Ireland ? It doesn't make sense.
    
    Tony.
    
    P.S. Are soft-porn mags like Playboy/Penthouse freely available in
    newsagents in Ireland yet or have the govt./church decided that Irish
    people shouldn't read these either.
    

    Tony,
    
    Having lived in Oz for 4 years, I know how the sun can get at you but
    putting soft porn after such serious matters as
    abortion/divorce/contraception may help explain why these zealous right
    wing religous groups can still scare "the plain people of Ireland" :-)
    
    I presume you heard the case of the 14 year old girl who was prevented
    from travelling to the UK for an abortion. She had been raped and was
    going to the UK with her parents. Do we have a note on this. I have
    been out of this file for a while.
    
    I can only hope that common sense takes hold of enough people and we
    can start to sort out these groups. It appears that this refusal of
    treatment for cancer where the woman is pregnant may be more common than we
    think. 
    
    Also, anyone over Galway way hear about this priest inviting some
    doctor on to the pulpit to encourage a NO vote for Maastricht ?
    
    - Joe
    
    P.S. if we do vote no on Thurs, send me the open jobs posting ;-)

    
    Re".6
    
    I "mis-spoke" in this note, because this group is pushing
    for women to be subject to their UNcontrolled fertility,
    not the other way round. As long as women cannot control
    their own fertility, they can be kept subject to men.
    
    As an update, the long awaited X case seems to coming towards
    court - guards went to interview the supposed abuser last
    week, but found he was away travelling. Rumour has it the
    genetic evidence is not favourable to him ....
    
    On Sunday"s paper, it was reported that the pro-lifers are
    doing their utmost to smear X: the story they are spreading
    on the doorsteps is that she was ahving an affair with an
    Iraqi. Apparently, the fact that she was under 16, and any
    sexual affair would be statutory rape - that is not relevant!
    
    Toby

    re.<<< Note 1073.10 by SIOG::FARRELL >>>
>    Having lived in Oz for 4 years, I know how the sun can get at you but
>    putting soft porn after such serious matters as
>    abortion/divorce/contraception may help explain why these zealous right
>    wing religous groups can still scare "the plain people of Ireland" :-)
    
    It was a half serious question Joe. I wonder why these rags/mags are
    not available. They are readily available to the rest of the western
    world so why not in Ireland (not that any of us would actually read
    them (just look at the pictures..)).
    
    Can anyone answer the question ?
    
    
    
    
    By the way, are you the same Joe Farrell who worked for Digital in OZ.
    On the east coast first and then in Perth. I was asked if I knew you
    when I first started here and I was then expected to live up to your
    drinking prowess simply because I was Irish. Needless to say I didn't
    let the country down.
    
    Your name is still held in high esteem among the drinking-class
    Australian digits.
    
    Tony.

    
    Re: Soft Porn and Abortion
    
    I really don't understand the question. Is this referring to 
    magazines like "Cosmopolitan" which carries ads for abortion
    clinics? Most of these magazines now have Irish editions
    in which these ads are removed.
    
    Recently I looked through "In Dublin" magazine, and was quite
    surprised to find a page of ads for massage parlours, escort
    agencies and sex "chat lines" (located in Ireland). I can't 
    see how these ads can be carried yet an ad for a clinic/ 
    counselling service is banned. Where's the logic in that?
    
    Toby

    
    The position of the Catholic Church in Ireland is not an easy
    one, but will have to be faced if we are serious about a 
    "United Ireland".
    
    In the Republic, over 80% of people regard themselves as Catholic,
    and of those over 90% are regular massgoers. The ROI is probably
    the most culturally uniform country in the world - there exists
    no significant religious, linguistic or culturally minority.
    This has undoubtedly contributed to the stability of the 
    State - it is one of the few European countries (apart from
    Scandanavia, Benelux and the U.K.) not to have had a fascist
    or communist takeover since 1921.
    
    The fact that the Catholic Church has supported the State
    since 1921 has been a major factor. In return the Church has
    had enormous concessions from the State - even before the
    1921 Treaty, William T. Cosgrave had proposed that all 
    legislation be submitted to a panel of Bishops to ensure
    it did not conflict with Chruch doctrine. The Church 
    controlled morals, education, and medical facilities -
    indeed for generations it provided schools and hospitals
    when a parsimonious state could not.
    
    De Valera was not much of an advance on Cosgrave, though
    he successfully resisted pressure to establish a clerical
    state. However, the preamble to the Irish Constitution
    unmistakably marks it out as a Catholic document. Article
    44 gave the Church a "special position", though this was
    later removed. 
    
    While the Church has abandoned the appearances of power
    there is not doubt that today its influence is more
    shadowy and elusive, and therefore much harder to combat.
    The activities of the "Masterminds of the Right" is a 
    case in point.
    
    I don't think the Catholic Church is all bad - its courageous
    stand against the IRA and British Army violence in Northern
    Ireland is greatly to its credit. Many priests, nuns and
    bishops have stopped trying to police the bedrooms of 
    Ireland, and are concentrating on help for the poor and
    powerless. The church has problems - vocations are dropping
    year on year, and (more importantly) the intellectual quality 
    of recruits is less than in former times. Gone are the
    days when the only advancement for the son of a poor family
    was through the Church.
    
    However, there is still a strong element in the Church that will 
    not lightly abandon the power it held in the past. And it is
    this element which must be resisted. Its power cannot be
    underestimated - just read the base note.
    
    Toby

    Tony,
    
    One and the same. I'll send you a mail and catch up with OZ goings on.
    By the way, the symbol :-) was to show you I was not serious in my
    reply. Anyway, Why dont we have such mags ?
    
    Catholic morals again, I suppose. Such weighty matters pale into
    insignificance with trying to figure out how England thought they could
    do well in the European Championships in the first place.
    
    Just in case the results are in anywhere else, 
    
    Sweden 2, England 1
    Denmark 2, France.
    
    Sweden an Denmark to through although Sweden will have 2 very good
    players suspended.
    
    The old joke (for which I will voluntarily take a yellow card) goes.
    
    Whats the first thing that will be said to Graham Taylor after the
    match (this you tell just before the kick off, you understand)
    
    Smoking or non-smoking, Sir.
    
    - Joe
    
     

Tony,

I fear you are correct. It is the same reprobate. We must have been out of our
minde here in the Dublin office to let him in here.

And it wasnt because we didnt know him. He was after all well known to the
drinking classes before he went ot Oz. We really shot ourselves in the foot
there. However to keep him occupied we have since hired another Joe. They are
referred to as the terrible twins

MBr

    Good J*, 
    
    MBr is awake today. I fear for the safety of the office. He is becoming
    delirious lately. He keeps trying to learn the Greek alphabet by
    reciting it but he cant get past the first letter. 
    
    At least we wont make the mistake of letting MBr down to the antipodes.
    What a sight that would be. 

   re .14

   >>The church has problems - vocations are dropping year on year, 
   >>and (more importantly) the intellectual quality of recruits is less 
   >>than in former times.

	Toby,
   I can't believe you mean what you say. I have some friends (one I would 
   consider a good friend) who are priests. They would, I believe,
   represent the average intellect of people currently joining, or those who 
   had joined the prieshood in the past ten years. They most certainly do not
   have inferior intellects to their predecessors. Rather the opposite. Some 
   have more advanced and more liberal views than many outspoken critics of the
   Church and it's current policies.

   >>Gone are the days when the only advancement for the son of a poor family
   >>was through the Church.
   
   Sad though the above is, it was true. But doesn't this contradict your top
   statement. And I don't for one minute wish to offend anyone who can relate 
   to the problem experienced by our less well families.
   The people who are entering the prieshood now do so because that's what they
   want to do. It is not seen as a means of "getting on", but rather one where
   those people beleve they can make a difference.

   Rgds...Paddy.   

re.                      <<< Note 1073.15 by SIOG::FARRELL >>>
   
    >                     -< Greetings from up over >-
    
    ???? Up & over who ?

    
>    Catholic morals again, I suppose. Such weighty matters pale into
>    insignificance with trying to figure out how England thought they could
>    do well in the European Championships in the first place.
    
    How could they ? There's not a decent catholic amongst them. Besides,
    they were probably too tired out from reading those magazines we spoke
    about earlier to play football.
    
    :-)
    
    Tony (relaxing on a Friday note with a large VB - remember them Joe?)
    

    
    Two Irish "non-denominational" hospitals have announced changes to
    their ethics rules dealing with female sterilization. Now, cases
    will not be referred to the Ethics committee, but will be vetted
    by the Hospital chief to ensure decisions about sterilisation are
    within the ethical guidelines.
    
    This is a step, but it still takes away from the woman the power
    over her own body that is guaranteed by the constitution. It
    should be HER decision only, in consultation with her doctor.
    It can only be a short time before this is challenged in the
    courts under the right to privacy.
    
    The government has also published its Family Planning Bill.
    Though condoms are to be more freely available, vending
    machines sale will still be banned. Can you picture it?
    Late night in a disco bar. Last drinks are called.
    "Two pints of Guinness, two packets of crisps and a packet of
    Featherlites". Give us a break, Mr Minister! Maybe we'll
    have a code: If you say "Give me a six-pack" and wink,
    you'll get a packet of Durex. 
    
    After reading Garth McComb in 1071.2, how can we in the
    South continue to talk about "pluralism" and pass archaic
    legislation like this? But it was probably the most that 
    the Mnister for Health could get out his party. Yet this is
    the 3rd Family Planning Bill we have had in 13 years!
    I guess it won't be the last.
    
    Toby

    re.-1
    >the 3rd Family Planning Bill we have had in 13 years!
    
    It's a joke, governments legislating peoples' sex lives.
    
    The basic problem in this issue is the title of the bill, "The
    *family* planning Bill". Availability of condoms has got nothing at all
    to do with planning families. It is based around the problem of married
    catholic couples wanting to have sex without becoming pregnant,
    something objected to by the church. The government (and therefore the
    bill) does not seem to take into account the example raised by Toby of
    the bloke out at a disco/pub, meets a nice girl and they want to have
    sex to round off a nice evening :-) Nothing unusual there, <lie_on>
    I've done it myself, thousands of times <lie_off>. There isn't much
    scope there for family 'planning'. They want to have sex together so
    they need to get some protection and it's 2am and there's no condom
    machine in the disco/pub.
    
    What's the government's solution ? (yea, yea, yea, I know. You should 
    always carry a few in your wallet). Go to the 24hr Chemist ??
    
    So what happens to the couple ? She gets pregnant, he gets the
    clap and they all live unhappily apart....
    
    
    
    
    N.B. There is no moral to this story, I just wanted to get it off my
    chest :-)))))))
    
    

    
    Tony,
    
    We can absolutely agree on something at last!
    
    To add fury to frustration, there is no change in the 1979 act
    which recognises ONLY the "natural birth control method" as 
    suitable for grants from the state for research
    or training!
    
    The fact that this method is the only one recognised by the
    Catholic Church is probably a coincidence, I don't think!
    
    Toby