Conference tallis::celt

    To begin here is my favourite Scots song (which reads very well
    as a poem in its own right):
    
    	Freedom Come All Ye
    
    	Roch the wind in the clear day's dawin'
    	Blaws the cloods heelster-gowdy o'er the bay,
    	But there's mair nor a roch wind blawin'
    	Through the great glen o' the warld the day.
    	It's a thocht that will gar oor rottans,
    	A' they rogues that gan gallus, fresh and gay,
    	Tak' the road and seek ither lawins
    	For their ill ploys tae sport an' play.
    
    	Nae mair will oor bonnie callants 
    	March tae war when oor hoodies crowsely craw,
    	Nor wee weans frae pitheid an' clachan
    	Watch the ships sailin' doon the Broomielaw.
    	Broken faim'lies in lands we've hairriet
    	Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair
    	Black an' white, ane till ither mairriet
    	Mak' the vile barracks o' the maisters bare.
    
    	Sae come a' ye at hame wi' freedom
    	Never heed what oor hoodies croak for doom,
    	In your hoose a' the bairns o' Adam
    	Will find breid, barley bree an' painted room.
    	When MacLean meets wi' his friends in Springburn,
    	A' they roses an' geans will turn tae bloom,
    	An' a black lad frae yont Nyanga
    	Dings the fell gallows o' the burghers doon.
    
    It was written by Dr. Hamish Henderson of Edinburgh University's
    School of Scottish Studies, and is sung to an old pipe tune The
    Bloody Fields of Flanders.
    
    It was written in response to MacMillan's speech about the winds
    of change blowing through Africa, and has been called (by no less
    a singer than Archie Fisher) the song of the century. I agree.
    
    Phillip

    
    Lowland Scots is definitely a dialect, not a language. It began
    as 'English spoken by Gaels' so it that respect it's no different
    than a Welsh or Irish person speaking English. 
    
    I was born in Glasgow of Irish parents, and I've lived in England
    for seven years. Whenever I go back I get accused of talking like
    a posh southerner, yet everyone in England says I've got a VERY
    broad accent. When in England, I don't use Scottish words though
    and speak much slower than I would naturally.
    
    The worst thing that can happen to a Glaswegian isn't that they
    say you sound English - it's if they say you sound like you come
    from Edinburgh . . .
                         
    John
    

>    Lowland Scots is definitely a dialect, not a language. 

	Well, it usen't be.  Back in the 16th century people treated
them as quite distinct tongues: when Mary Queen of Scots wrote to her
Scottish nobles and subjects she did so in Scots, while if she was
writing to English people she did so in English.  This was apparently
a fairly common practice among educated Scots of the time. Scots was
considered to be as distinct from English as Proven�al from French. 

	I suppose that Scots, like many other variations on "Standard"
English, has been pretty much eradicated by standarisation in spelling
and on television and radio - look what's happened to most of the
English English dialects; especially in the South.  I imagine that the
present day vernacualar in Central and Lowland Scotland, while still
pretty distinctive, could no longer be mistaken for a separate tongue.

    The Concise Scots Dictionary maintains that there is a greater
    linguistic divide between the dialects of Scotland and those even
    of the North of England than there is between any of the dialects
    of England (And this means not just accents of course, but lexical
    and maybe even syntactic differences), and that within Scotland
    there are more similarities between dialects than there are between
    those dialects and any of the dialects of England.
    
    For these reasons, rather than historical or cultural ones, they
    maintain that Scots is a separate language. I used to disagree,
    but having read their articles, looked at their dictionary, read
    Scots literature and listened to hundreds of Scots songs, I'm not
    so sure now (I agree more than I disagree, though not 100%).
    
    Nowadays the situation is blurred, the differences between the speech
    of Carlisle and places 30 miles up the A74 are maybe not so great,
    except for accent, and likely to get smaller (Which is to be regretted)
    but when the A74 was just a single-track road with passing places
    (It still is in places!) then I think the linguistic divide the
    Border hills create must have been enormous.
    
    I put Freedom Come All Ye in .1 to show just how difficult Scots
    can be, and MacDiarmid of course used even more dialect terms, and
    less accessible ones. I cannot think that Welsh writers could produce
    anything so impenetrable in their versions of English.
    
    I think that .1 shows the level of poeticism that is possible in
    Scots too.
    
    Phillip

    Hello Folks,
    
    This discussion sent me running to my dictionary and this is what
    I found.
    
    
    
          The following is from the chart of INDO-EUROPEAN FAMILY OF
          LANGUAGES in the American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    
                             PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN
                                      . 
    
    				      .
    
    				      .
    			           CELTIC
                                     / \
    				    /   \
                                   /     \
    				  /       \
    			         /         \
    			   GOIDELIC     BRYTHIONIC
                             /  \          / | \
    			    /    \        /  |  \
                           /      \      /   |   \
                      Scottish  Irish Welsh Corn. Breton
                          
    
    
    		  <---	ENGLISH elsewhere (GERMANIC)
    
    
    Anyone have any comments?  Does this chart reflect reality??
    
    
    
    Regards,
    
    	Diane St. Onge           				

    Hey, this is great fun ! saves me buying the Beano on Thursday.
    What you've got to remember is that within Scotland there are a
    tremendous amount of variations of the Scottish diallect. for those
    of you with maps of Scotland, I'm a Fifer and yet go north to Dundee
    (35 miles) , south to Edinburgh (20 miles) or away across to the
    west coast to Glasgow (a tremendous distance of 40 miles or so)
    and I have trouble understanding what the locals are saying. 
    
    Drew

    The BEANO doesn't use words like GOIDELIC, though... :-).   Does
    anyone have a definition of what this GOIDELIC/BRYTHIONIC split
    is based on?

    While we're all looking up big words in our (English or US)
    dictionaries...
    
    I'm not sure whether Scots is a separate language (being English,
    I wouldn't be qualified to have a definitive opinion anyway...).
    
    Suspect there is a connection between nationalism and language,
    though - the kind of political tautologies that Hugh McDiarmaid
    maybe got into, that aroused suspicion in the original note.
    
    Elsewhere in Europe, mostly in the 19th century, nationalist
    movements got going around linguistic groups, revived interest
    in literature within those groups, and then standardised the
    languages through the "new-found" literature and through
    20th-century mass media.
    
    Languages which formerly merged imperceptibly across the countryside
    - various dialects of Italian, to Provencal to French, for example -
    became frozen inside national boundaries and national school systems,
    etc.
    
    This only happened incompletely in Scotland.  Lowland Scots IS different
    to northern English (at least in the same way that Lancashire dialect is
    different, contains different expression patterns, from Cumberland).
    Does these differences make for different languages?   In Scotland
    there's more of an interest in saying it's a different language
    - why not agree?   (Vive la difference, etc).
    
    Problem comes in deciding what to do about this difference.   Separate
    local TV, specialist language literature, etc, OK - school exam
    qualifications in Scots for government jobs, maybe not.

I don't remember where I heard this, but...

A language is a dialect with its own army and navy.

Dave

    .9 - like it, Dave.
    
    Interesting that Scotland, again, qualifies a little more than some
    other dialect groups in the UK - there isn't a Scottish army, (and
    certainly no navy), but there are/were a lot of Scottish regiments and
    they seem to be an element in national consciousness.   Note the
    reference to the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in one or two other
    recent notes.
    
    Of course, they haven't officially used that army on anyone for
    a while...  (Englishman sits back and wait for flames and war stories).

    RE:  .9, .10
    
    The Duke of Atholl has his own army.
    
    
    

    Re .5: To be a little more precise the picture would look so:
    
    				PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN
    					.
    					.
    					.
    				    ITALO-CELT
    					|
    		-----------------------------------------
    		|					|
    	    Latin languages			      CELTIC
    							/\
    						       /  \
    					______________/    \______
    				   GOIDELIC		      	BRYTHIONIC
    					|    			|
    		-------------------------	-------------------------
    		|	     |		|	|	|	|  	|
    	  	Irish	Scottish     Manx     Gaul    Cornish Welsh  Breton
    The separation between Celtic and Latin languages dates from
    approximately 1500 BC, the one between Goidelic and Brythionic from
    about 300 BC, the one between Scottish and Irish is from the 7th
    or 8th century AD, the one between Welsh, Cornish and Breton from
    the 5th or 6th century AD (these last 3 had separated from Gaul
    around 100 BC).
    			Denis.
    

    I go away for two weeks and all this happens! Great!
    
    There is a basic error in note .5, which can be knocked on the head
    without helping the debate on whether Scots is a language or a dialect
    of English.
    
    The "Scottish" refered to in .5 is Scots Gaelic, not Scots or Lallans
    (Lallans is used specifically these days to refer to the language
    of the "Scottish Renaissance" after c. 1940, but in various (ahem)
    dialects of Scots it meant just Lowlands originally. It seemed an
    easier choice as a header than any other term I could think of.)
    
    There has been an amusing, and coincidental, exchange of letters
    in the Guardian recently about this very thing. Maybe it's not
    coincidence, maybe there are more Guardian and VAXnotes readers
    than I thought out there. Their discussion got no further than ours
    has.
    
    Unlike the great MacDiarmid, I have no political axe to grind on
    this, but I think he was right to use Scots as a poetic medium.
    His early works were beautiful, compact lyrics, and his use of Scots
    reached its peak as a vehicle for poetry in A Drunk Man Looks At
    The Thistle. So, for purely linguistic and cultural reasons - as
    opposed to nationalistic ones - I think Scots is something distinct
    from English. Note that I hesitate to use the term language, be
    still faint heart (Whisht hairt?)
    
    MacDiarmid could be wrong about things though. He criticised Ewan
    MacColl when he left Theatre Workshop to concentrate his considerable
    talents on folksong, and had a long, angry debate with Norman Buchan
    in the pages of the Scotsman on the value of traditional literature.
    MacDiarmid just didn't have an ear for it, poor sod.
    
    It's interesting (to me, anyway) that MacColl, who I consider the
    finest song-writer, produced his best work in English, and used
    Scots rarely and to no great effect.
    
    Phillip
     

	Scottish Tradition, An Anthology of Folk Literature, by David
    Buchan.
    
    In this book Buchan introduces the following genres of Folk Literature:
    	Folk Narrative
    	Folk Song
    	Folk Say (Riddles, proverbs)
    	Folk Drama
    
    The book _is_ an anthology, not a study, so theory and discussion
    of the examples is limited. There is a broad introduction to the
    genres, and notes on the individual sections. References are excellent.
    
    The narratives include The Black Bull o' Norrowa, Rashie Coats (A
    version of Cinderella) and Whuppity Stoorie ( A version of
    Rumpelstiltskin). It is interesting to see the relationships between
    the Scots tales and the (unfortunately) more familiar European
    versions. For anyone new to this area (as I was) this section of
    the book is an excellent introduction. 
    
    Folk song is well represented, though anyone with any knowledge
    of Scots song will be familiar with the majority of selections.
    The excellent Dreg Song (recorded by Archie Fisher on Will Ye Gang
    Love) is included, and there are some other unusual ones - a New
    Year song from Shetland, a beautiful Border lullabye which shows
    that right from the cradle the Moss Troopers were taught to harry
    the English and return the Debatable Land. Most interesting of all
    are two tunes (few examples are printed with tunes) - one as mormally
    printed in collections, the other as actually sung, transcribed
    by Francis Collinson from Jeannie Robertson. The difference is
    astonishing, and shows the complexity of the great traditional singers'
    art. 
    
    Folk Say and Drama are (for me) less interesting, but well represented
    and discussed.
    
    I would recommend this more as a book to borrow from a library than
    to buy, but  certainly worth reading.

    Re: -1
    
    
    >                                the Moss Troopers were taught to harry
    >the English and return the Debatable Land.
    
    
    Just a small point of order, Alan!
    
    The Debatable Land belonged to NEITHER the Scots NOR the English.
    It was GRAHAM land and was coveted by BOTH sides since it was one
    of the few areas in the whole Border region with good soil to support
    a sizeable "clan".
    
    After the Union in 16-oatcake, a policy was vigorously pursued by
    the (now united) "authorities" (viz. the wardens of the respected
    Scottish and English West Marches) to commit genocide against "thae
    malefactors, the Grahams."
    
    Most of the males of the family were transported to the Low Countries
    but managed over a very short time to make their way back again.
    Next they were transported to Ireland (the North, as it is now)
    where they were given the poorest of land so that they could
    (hopefully) starve to death.
    
    THEN the "Debatable Land" could be confiscated by the gentry and
    re-distributed amongst themselves.
    
    Who knows - maybe one day we'll come and take it back - from both
    of yese!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Mike (Graham - "clan" motto - "ne oublie" [I've forgotten what it
    means! :-)]
    
    PS An excellent book for any Borderer (Graham, Kerr, Armstrang,
    Home etc etc etc) is, of course, "The Steel Bonnets".
    

	Well, I'm glad to see you read that last one, but who's Alan?
    
    Anyway, you're absolutely right, and I can only claim a typo in
    my defence - I meant return _to_ the Debatable Land.
    
    There is an excellent book on just the Border ballads - none from
    elsewhere in England and Scotland, unlike Child and Bronson, which
    has a lot of good background material. I can't remember the author
    just now, but I'll seek it out tonight if you're interested in that
    area specifically.
    
    Phillip

    Yes, who IS Alan?
    
    Mea culpa - me windies wus a' misted up - sorry Fillup!
    
    I'd appreciate the title of the referenced tome, if you can manage
    it!
    
    Moikle
    
    (my name's changed since I came to Ireland - it used to be Michael!)
     

    "Ne oublie" is French for "Never Forget"...apt considering the subject
    in  -.16.
    
    Roxanne

    Thanks Roxanne!  I must invent some keyboard body language for "tongue
    in cheek"!  /-))?
    
    And yes, Scots and French do get on rather well together!  Remember
    the "Auld Alliance", Mary Queen of ...., Bonny Prince C... etc?
    All partial to a frogs' leg supper after a bevvy! :-)
    
    Actually I believe the family motto is from the original Norman
    knight (Mr. Knight - Norman to his friends!) who founded the Graham
    Dynasty - Sir Wullium (changed his name to the Scots spelling!)
    de "Grieg Hame = Grey House = presumably the colour of his Scottish
    Special Housing Association cooncil hoose.
    
    Hey!  I'm beginning to sound like one of those "Gee my ancestors
    were from Scotland/Wished they were Scots/Once met someone from
    Scotland/Knew somebody who once went to Scotland/Can spell Scotland
    brigade who come to this side of the pond to spend their loverly
    money!  :-)  Apologies.
    
    Mike
    

    The book I mentioned earlier is
    
    	James Reed, The Border Ballads, London, 1973
    	ISBN 0 485 11144 6
    
    It deals only with ballads associated with the borders, and is a
    study, not an anthology. Related topics covered include history,
    literature and music generally, architecture and topography, for
    all of which biographies are given.
    
    Phillip

    There is a programme on BBC Radio 4 on Thursday 8th at 20:30 on
    the life and works of William Soutar, who was a fine Scots poet
    of the first part of this century.
    
    I think it will called "Journey Within A Single Room"
    
    Enjoy! Enjoy!
    
    Phillip

Here's an example of william Soutar's work, in case anyone might be
    interested in the programme on him. My spelling is awry in places,
    as his Lallans is nae my Lallans, and I write from memory. 
    
    The Tryst

O looly looly cam she in
And looly she lay doon:
I kent her by her caller lips
And her briests sae sma' and roond.
         
A' through the nicht we spak nae word,
Nor sindered bane frae bane,
A' through the nicht I heard her hairt
Gan soondin wi' my ain

It was about the waukrif hour,
When cocks begin to craw,
That she smooled saftly through the mirk
Afore the day wad daw

Sae looly looly cam she in
Sae looly was she gane:
And wi' her a' my simmer days
As they had never been

    
   
    -------------|-----------|---------|----------|-----|
                 |           |         |          |     |
    -------------|-----------|---------|----------|-----|
    4            |      O    |         |          |     |
    -------------|-----------|---------|----------|-----|
    4            |        O  |         |        O |     |
    -------------|-----------|---------|------O---|--O--|
                 |           | O       | O  O     |     |
    ---------/-O-|---O-------|---------|----------|-----|
          / O      O              O 
    --- -O-                         ---
     O                               O

    .24 refers to .23
    

    .23 - .25
    
    Explain please
    
    Puzzled, of Welwyn

    Looks a little bit like Danny Boy to me, but I'm sitting in my office
    and can only sing it in my head!
    
    Key of e minor?   It's hard to guess without a key reference!
    
    Holly

       Danny Boy?  Isn't that the same as London Derri�re?
       
       --Mr Topaz

    I was trying to see if there was music to go with the words found
    in .23 but I guess it didn't come across that way...

I include this note here, as it is generally relevant to the topic, but
particularly since Dick Leonhardt's question in .24. The album contains
William Soutar's poem The Tryst, set to a tune by Dave Whyte - and it's
wonderful!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This album is one of a series in which Jean Redpath seems to have decided
to follow a particular theme, rather than her earlier albums which were
straightforward anthologies. The theme her is that many of the best Lallans
poems would make excellent songs, and that given a tune which is in the
Scottish musical tradition, the poems will sound like traditional Scots
songs.

The Lallans poets chosen here are
	Helen B. Cruikshank	
	Violet Jacob
	Lewis Spence	
	Sydney Goodsir Smith
	William Soutar
There are also poems by R.L.Stevenson, Yeats and Laurence Josephs. There
are also two traditional songs, and a modern one by Bill Caddick.

Many of the songs are unaccompanied; those that aren't feature Abby Newton
and Jay Ungar on cello and fiddle, and their accompaniments are (as usual)
complementary to text and tune. The tunes are by various Scots musicians,
and many make you think you know the tune when you first hear it, as there
are echoes of traditional tunes running through them.

Jean Redpath's singing is as beautiful as ever, the vocification of honey,with
twiddly bits.

The highlights are  (and it's difficult to drop any songs from the highlights)
Cruikshank's Up the Noran Water, Smith's Now the Die is Cast and Soutar's
The Tryst.

Certainly the best folk album of the year, and even (I think) Jean's best
ever. The catalogue number is Philo 1110, availble from Virgin, or the
excellent Discount Folk Records in Edinburgh.

Phillip

    
    Yes, like the achievement of the Scottish (made up largely of lowland
    Scots I might add) football team in beating Bulgaria to allow the
    Republic thru to the Finals !!
    	  
    	- Blob ;-)

    
    RE -.1
    		Excuse me Jean Redpath fans but somehow I read the base
    note .0 as being .30 and replied to that. Obviously Jean Redpath,
    while she might play football, doesn't play for the Scottish Team.
    Mind you if she could play fitba as well as she chants then you'd
    have a team........
    		
    		- Blob