Conference smurf::civil_war

The real tactical problem at Fredericksburg, INHO, was Burnside's
failure to realize how thoroughly thing were amiss after he had
bombarded the snipers along the waterfront and they kept right on
shooting.  Using pontoons for boats was a clever tactic, but it seems
that sitting back and reconsidering his options before sending his
troops into a position about which he knew nothing except that it was
horribly dangerous might have been good generalship.  Delays had cost
him already, he could have afforded another day.

It didn't help any that he chose to commit to battle in a location
where he had no possibility of flanking the enemy but where he could
be flanked by the enemy.  Strategy goof, I think.

-d

    If I remember correctly, the engineers were not at fault for the
    lateness of erecting the bridges; they (the bridges) were delayed in
    shipment from Washington.
    
    But, more to the point, I would argue that, while the battle plan
    *may* have been sound when originally formulated, to continue to rely
    upon that plan when the situation had changed so drastically (with
    Lee's fortification of Marye's Heights) was unwise (of course,
    hind-sight is 20-20).  Battle plans, or at least the generals who make
    them, require flexibility, which is one of the areas where Lee stood
    out.
    
    Of course, this is just my opinion....
    
    Mark

    
    > I would argue that, while the battle plan *may* have been sound when 
    > originally formulated, to continue to rely upon that plan when the 
    > situation had changed so drastically was unwise.
    
    	As a side note, this is alot of the reason why the German's
    	didn't take France in the first month of WWI. 
    
    	I'll shut up now. 8-)
    
    	/prc

    re .1 and .2
    
    Good valid points. Thanks for your input. However, given the terrain,
    time of year and available information, Burnside had no reason to
    believe Marye's Heights had been fortified with artillary. One must
    also keep in mind the events that led to Burnside's appointment.
    Lincoln demanded results. He had spent over a year arguing with
    McClellen and, to some extent, must share in some of the blame for
    pressuring Burnside to press the attack.
    
    Rich
    

    ER, umm, yeah, Lincoln got results, all right.  Not precisely the kind
    he wanted...  :-)
    
    I agree that Burnside had no real reason to believe that the heights
    were so formidably armed, but I still contend that when his pontoniers
    kept coming back dead he should have thought a little instead of
    doggedly pursuing his original plan.  Fact is, he was already having
    serious misgivings before the battle and reported as much to
    Washington.  Discretion being the better part of valor...
    
    -d

    In defense of Burnside, and I'm sure that someone will correct me if
    I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that he did not want com-
    mand of the AOP at all, not having faith in his ability at the level
    of army command.  
    
    Ziff

    
    A southern viewpoint :^) ??
    
    	Re.-.1
    		I'm not to sure about that Ziff. I believe I've read
    somewhere that Burnside was talking and bragging to anyone who
    would listen in camp and in Washington how he could do the job better
    than Mac. (If need be I could look it up!?).
    	Well it looks like Lincoln gave him his chance. I'm not putting all
    the blame on Burnside. I believe he did what he thought was right.
    
    But I've been to Fredericksburg and walked about the battlefield,
    especially Maryne's Heights. And I'll admit, I would not want to be
    the one charging those hills with entrenched troops with arty backup.
    
    I will give credit where credit is due. The bravery of those Yanks
    charging them entrenchments repeatedly ranks right up there with the
    bravery of those men who crossed the mile long field of Pickett's
    charge.
    
    To the memory of those men who attempted it, a tip of the slouch hat.
    
    					The Alabama Slammer

    On behalf of those men who you tip your hat to, I thank you.  The 28th
    Mass. was the regiment which made it closest to those entrenched lines.
    This, perhaps more than any other reason is why the 28th suffered the
    7th highest casualty rate of any union regiment.  One of the sister
    regiments in the Irish Brigade, the 69th NY, ranks number 6 on the
    list.  As for Burnside, perhaps you're right.  Mine was but a dim
    memory from long ago reading.
    
    Ziff

If memory serves, it was gfood ol' Fighting Joe Hooker who thought he
could do it better.  I believe Burnside was unsure of his ability to
assume command, and that his remarks led others to wonder how his men
could have confidence in him if he himself didn't.

-d

    .9 has it right. Hooker was the braggard. Burnside was an able general
    but felt command of the AOP was political suicide. He knew that Scott,
    McDowell and McClellen had suffered the wrath of Lincoln due to not
    producing any real victories. He accepted the position knowing there
    was no real way he could gain favor without a smashing victory in his
    very first encounter. Given the circumstances, he was in a no-win
    situation. But, Burnside was a loyal military man who accepted the
    responsibility thrust upon him just as a good soldier is supposed to.
    
    Rich
    

    .9 and .10 are in agreement with what I have read, except - was Hooker
    the braggart, or was it Pope?
    
    Mark

    Mark, My recollection is that it was Hooker who was so brazen and
    foolishly bold that he was lured into a catastrophe by Lee at
    Chancellorsville.
    
    Rich
    

    Actually, the Chancellorsville campaign was brilliantly planned and
    executed up to the crititcal point.  Lee had been caught with his pants
    down by the flank march.  Had Hooker kept moving forward the ANV would
    have been caught in the jaws of a huge vice and ground to pieces.  As
    it was, Hooker, who moments before had been a fire-eater with supreme
    confidence in his own ability, lost his nerve and gave up the
    initiative.  Hooker lost confidence in Hooker, and the rest is history.

    Hooker was the loud mouth...when he was appointed, he also got a
    famous letter from Lincoln raking him over the coals for the way
    he had been acting, and basically saying "I'm giving you the job
    not because of what you have been saying, but in spite of what
    you have been saying....just get out there and win, and we'll talk
    about whether we need a dictatorship later."

    In human terms, the assault on the heights at Fredericksburg was not 
    only a military blunder but a disaster. Joshua Chamberlain of the
    20th Maine wrote a chilling description of the field the night after
    the battle when thousands of wounded Northerner lay suffering in the
    frigid winds without water or medical aid.  Anyone who tried to go
    forward or backward risked being shot and scavengers roamed the field
    robbing the dead.  The next day many who survived the night still could  
    not be helped because the leadership was inept at how to go about 
    calling a truce. 
    
    
    There is a story about how the next day some regiments were ordered to
    form and a general saw a lone soldier standing a distance from the
    rest. The general spurred his mount towards the soldier and angrily
    demanded that he join his company immediately.  With tears in his eyes,
    the private said, "I am all that's left of my company, sir."
                                                    
    
    

At Gettysburg, one Maine (?) regiment went into battle with 900+ troops
before the initial Oak Hill squabble.  They formed up near the Angle
on July 3 with about 60 troops.  Three were left standing at the end
of the battle.

-d

    I visited Fredericksburg last week, and it was actually a little
    horrifying to stand there on the sunken road looking down at the
    field the Federals had to cross.  Reading about it does not do justice
    to the impregnability of the Confederate position.  It looks a lot like
    the scene from Little Round Top, which I also visited.  No wonder the
    attack failed...
    
    -d

    
    	I might also suggest the view from:
    
    		"The Sunken Road", "Cornfield", "Burnsides Bridge"
    			   Antienam Battlefield
    
    	
    					The Alabama Slammer

    
    	Lieutenant Colonel Joshua Chamberlain, whose 20th Maine Regiment
    was pinned down before the stone wall, later described what he heard
    that night as a "smothered moan that seemed to come from distances
    beyond reach of the natural senses, as if a thousand discords were
    flowing together in a keynote weird, unearthly, terrible to hear and
    bear, yet startling with its nearness; some with delirious dreamy 
    voices murmuring loved names, as if the dearest were bending over them;
    and underneath, all the time, that deep bass note from closed lips too
    hopeless or too heroic to articulate their agony."
    
    	As wounded men died, their bodies quickly froze, and many were
    stacked up to form barriers against the biting wind for those who still
    lived. Colonel Chamberlain slept between two such corpses for shelter,
    drawing a third crosswise to serve as a pillow and pulling a dead man's
    coat flap over his face for warmth.
    
    	Federal stretcher-bearers came and went, carrying off as many of
    the wounded as they could. Scavengers from both sides roamed the 
    battlefield, stripping the dead of their uniforms. "More than once,"
    Colonel Chamberlain remembered, "I was startled from my unrest by
    someone turning back the coatskirt from my face, peering, half vampire-
    like, to discover if it too were of the silent and unresisting;
    turning away more disconcerted at my living word than if a voice had
    spoken from the dead."
    
    	During the night, nature put on an unearthly show, as if to
    emphasize the awful events of the day past. The sky was emblazoned 
    with the fiery glow of the northern lights, seldom seen so far south.
    Some Confederates wondered whether a Federal supply depot had been 
    put to the torch, while others decided, as one of them later phrased
    it, "that the heavens were hanging out banners and streamers and 
    setting off fireworks in honor of our victory."
    
    					Time-Life Books
    
    						The Alabama Slammer

    
    	Saluted by both sides as "the angel of Marye's Heights," 19-year
    old Sergeant Richard Kirkland of Company E, 2nd South Carolina 
    Volunteers, repeatedly risked Federal fire on the day after the battle
    to carry water to parched, wounded Union soldiers still lying before
    the stone wall.
    	A year later, Kirkland himself fell mortally wounded at
    Chickamauga.
    
    						The Alabama Slammer
    

    
    	After midnight, two brigades of Sykes's Federals were ordered to a
    forward position on the field. Captain John W. Ames of the 11th U.S.
    Infantry remembered a macabre scene as the men marched across the 
    blasted plain: "Here stood a low brick house, with an open door in its
    gable end, from which shone a light, and into which we peered when 
    passing.
    	
    	Inside sat a woman, gaunt and hard-featured, with crazy hair, still
    sitting by a smoking candle, though it was nearly two hours past
    midnight. But what the woman could sleep, though ever so masculine and
    tough of fiber, alone in a house between two hostile armies - two
    corpses lying across her door steps, and within, almost at her feet,
    four more!
    
    	So, with wild eyes and face lighted by her smokey candle, she 
    stared across the dead barrier into the darkness outside with the look
    of one who heard and saw not, and to whom all sounds were a terror."
    
    					Time-Life Books
    
    						The Alabama Slammer
    	 

    
    	Few men fought with such wild abandon as the Irish Brigade. These
    troops, regiments of volunteers from New York City, Boston and
    Philadelphia, were among the two million Irish immigrants who had fled
    famine and English oppression in the 20 years before the Civil War.
    
    	They were brawny canal diggers, track layers, hod carriers and
    bartenders, leavened by a smattering of lawyers, teachers, writers and
    merchants. They fought for new country, both to earn acceptance as 
    citizens and to train for the conflict they dreamed of - the war to
    liberate Ireland.
    
    	Their general, Thomas Meagher, was a swashbuckling Irish exile,
    Jesuit-educated and an impassioned orator. Known as "Meagher of the 
    Sword", he had led his troops to glory at Frayser's Farm, Malvern Hill
    and Antienam's Bloody Lane. Between battles, Meagher presided over the
    most convivial camp in the Army, a bivouac alive with songfests and
    horse races. There was even a tavern that flourished despite the
    Temperance Society formed by one determined brigade chaplain.
    
    	On the morning of December 13th, 1862, the brigade took its place
    in Hancock's division and charged Marye's Heights in the second wave.
    A Federal officer pinned down on the slope watched the Irishmen advance
    and later re-created the scene.
    
    	The men marched out from town, he wrote, "in glorious style, their
    green sunbursts waving. Every man has a sprig of green in his cap, and
    a half-laughing, half-murderous look in his eye. They pass just to our
    left, poor glorious fellows, shaking goodbye to us with their hats.
    They reach a point within a stone's throw of the stone wall. They try
    to go beyond, but are slaughtered. Nothing could advance further and
    live."
    
    	Of the 1,300 men who attacked under the Irish Brigade's green
    and gold banners, by nightfall 545 were killed, wounded or missing,
    presumed dead.
    
    	    In tribute to the Irish who attacked Marye's Heights
    			    December 13, 1862

    
    	Lee saw the Federals re-forming for new attempts, and remarked 
    to Longstreet: "General, they are massing very heavy and will break
    your line, I am afraid."
    	Longstreets reply was serene: "General, if you put every man on
    the other side of the Potomac on that field to approach me over the
    same line, and give me plenty of ammunition, I will kill them all
    before they reach my line."
    
    				"From Manassas to Appomattox"
    				     General James Longstreet
    
    
    
    	Field glasses in hand, General Lee, accompanied by General
    Longstreet and several aides, watched the Confederate victory unfold
    from an hilltop near the lines.
    	"It is well war is so frightful, otherwise we should become too
    fond of it."
    
    					"Lee's Memoirs"
    						R.E. Lee
    
    					         The Alabama Slammer 

    re .22
    
    Not to toot the horn of me own regiment, but the men that the Federal
    officer in question saw must have been the 28th Massachusetts.  They
    were the only regiment in the brigade who had the green Irish Brigade
    colors on that particular day, the others being delivered soon after
    the battle.  The entire brigade wore the evergreen sprigs as a
    substitute for the missing colors.  One footnote: at this battle, as
    in a few others, Meagher developed a sudden light injury which kept 
    him from leading his troops personally.  This has led to some spec-
    ulation that his own mettle wasn't quite up to snuff with that of
    his command.  In any event, as an organizer and motivator of troops
    he was superb.
    
    Ziff

    Porter Alexander wrote that on the night of the 13th, the infantry
    that held the ground in front of one of his batteries was bothered
    by a very proficient sharpshooter.  Alexander indulged in a bit
    of counter-sniper fire with his own favorite tack-driver: a 24-
    pounder howitzer!
    
    Wess

    
    Re: .24
    
    T.F. Meagher was an idealistic revolutionary, very political, with a
    strong pragmatic streak when it came to his own ambitions. From what
    I have read he was probably an alcoholic. Rumors followed him that he
    fell drunk from his horse at Antietam. Bruce Catton treats him with
    kid gloves when he says that Meagher appeared in the rear during the
    battle of Fredericksburg in his own inexplicable way. I have not 
    read anything that questioned his personal courage. He was defiant in
    the dock when he was sentenced to death as an Irish rebel. He risked
    death escaping from Tasmania. He was wounded in battle and did not
    shy from addressing his troops amid cannon shot. I don't think the
    Irish Brigade could have served as impressively as it did if the
    average grunt thought the brigadier was not dependable. I think he
    was brave enough, but the bottle eventually killed him.
    
    Ziff, being an "insider", can you shed some light on the story of the
    flag of the 28th Mass after it was lost on Mayre's Heights? It's a
    good one. 
    
    TD
              
      

    I'm embarrassed to say that I've never heard the story (several
    distinct shades of red across my face!).  Please relate it for me,
    I always love new stories: especially one that strikes so close to
    home.  Besides, my ignorance is showing :-)!
    
    Ziff

    
    Re: .27
    
    I read about it a book on the Irish Brigade. How much is true and how
    much is blarney, I don't know, but I believe Catton might have referred
    to it in one of his books also. Anyway, this is how I remember it.
    
    The IB (69th, 63rd, 88th NY regmts) had ordered new battle flags from
    NY. They had not arrived in time for the battle so each soldier put a
    sprig of boxwood in his cap in place of the green flags. The 28th had
    been newly attached to the brigade and still had its own green flag and
    carried it into battle that day.  The story goes...
    
    The flag was lost during the assault on the heights. This caused a lot
    of consternation, losing a battle flag was a serious blow, especially
    to the IB. The night after the assault, a rebel who had seen the
    flagbearer fall, crawled to the spot and tucked the trophy in his
    shirt. But instead of heading back to the stone wall, he crossed the
    field to the Union lines where he surrendered to a picket and demanded
    to be taken to Meagher. Seems he was wounded during the trek. When he
    met with an elated Meagher, he introduced himself. His name was
    Sullivan, born in Galway, and served in a Georgia regiment that was
    largely Irish. He was also a Fenian (an Irish revolutionary group)
    which had a large membership in both armies who often met and discussed
    their private issues during lulls in battle.
    
    After he returned the flag, he supposedly fainted from loss of blood
    from his wound. He spent a few days being wined and dined by Meagher
    (a famous party animal) who offered the reb a position in his recently
    depleted brigade. Sullivan politely declined, he just wanted to return
    the flag and get back to his regiment. A truce was set up with rebel 
    pickets and the Georgian went back to killing Yankees. Seems he
    survived the war and became a successful businessman. Many in the
    IB were not so lucky.
    
    Sorry if I got longwinded, but you asked...
    
    TD                             

re .26

I don't think Meagher was done in by alcohol as you indicate.

After the war, Meagher became governor of the Montana territory and died
of drowning in some river (I don't remember which) while in Montana (187?). I
don't recall anything about alcohol being involved in the drowning, but
suppose it might have been.

							Rod Burr

    
    re .29
    
    A few years ago I did a bit of research on Meagher. By all indications,
    he was very intelligent, eloquent, and ambitious. He was considered one
    of the great orators of his age. His "Sword" speech is still recited by
    schoolchildren in Ireland. He was a writer, a musician, a diplomat, a
    politician, and a born leader. He even was instrumental in designing
    the Irish flag as we know it today patterning it on the French
    tri-color.  His talents and achievements are well-documented.
    However...
    
    More reading and I began to come across references like these: "Horace
    Greeley lent that specious alcholic, T.F. Meagher, $500 to start a
    newspaper, the debt which was never repaid." "Meagher was involved in
    the shameful public horsewhipping of a rival newspaper editor." (Both
    prior to the war.) During the war allegations on drunkeness followed
    him. His friend and original commander  of the 69th NY, Col. Cochran,
    died falling from his horse during a race with Meagher (heavy drinking
    was alledged.) He was accused of being drunk at Antietam. Later, after
    he resigned from the Irish Brigade, he was assigned to Sherman's 
    command where he was said to be ineffectual and despondent (qualities
    that could well be contributed to drinking.) Finally, after the war,
    while acting governor of the Montana Territory, he died from accidental
    drowning during a steamship excursion. The source I read pointedly
    indicated that it occurred during a bout of heavy drinking.
    
    I don't know if any of the above is really true. As I get older I have
    less and less faith in the accuracy of "historical facts." The portrait
    I get of T.F. Meagher is a man of enormous ability and drive who was
    flawed like everyone else.
    
    TD    
      
            

    From the 1897 edition of Johnson's Universal Cyclopedia:
    
    Meagher, Thomas Francis: revolutionist and soldier; b. at Waterford,
    Ireland, Aug. 3, 1823; studied at the Jesuit college of Clongowes Wood,
    Kildare, and at Stonyhurst College, England; became a favorite orator
    woth the Young Ireland party of 1846-46; was sentenced to death for
    sedition; but the sentence was commuted to transportation for life;
    escaped from Tasmania in 1852 and went to New York; lectured with
    success in various parts of the U.S.; was admitted to the bar, and
    wrote for the press; became editor of "The Irish News" in 1856; became
    in 1861 a captain and then major of the Sixty-ninth New York
    Volunteers; raised a brigade of Irish volunteers in 1862; commanded
    this brigade as brigadier-general 1962-63; left the brigade after the
    battle of Chancellorsville; was assigned in 1864 to the command of the
    district of Etowa; resigned May 15, 1865.  In 1865 he became secretary
    of Montana; was drowned by falling from a steamer into the Missouri
    river at Fort Benton, Mont., July 1, 1867.  Revised by James Mercur.

    re .28
    
    Thanks for relaying the story.  Now that you've told it, I do remember
    hearing it in passing somewhere.  Like you, I can't vouch for the truth
    in it.  It does make for some excellent storytelling though...
    
    I've also heard that Meagher fell drunk from the boat as well, but
    without facts I guess nobody will ever know for sure.  Whatever his
    faults may or may not have been, he was a very colorful character.
    
    Ziff

    After the first round of disastrous charges on Marye's Heights, when
    the survivors were reforming for another go, a union lieutenant saw
    a private standing on his own in the wings just watching.  He stormed
    over to the man and furiously demanded to know why he was just standing
    there and not falling in.  "Where is your company?!"  The private
    replied in a voice choked with tears: "I'm all that's left of my
    company, sir."  
    
    Ziff