Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    Congratulations.  You've found out what it really is to be a male
    in American Society.  She can do anything she &^#@% well pleases
    and there isn't diddley you can do about it, and like most males in
    America you haven't said peep until it has came home to roost on
    you personally.  If/when it gets bad enough that enough males are
    fed up enough to band together into a political force that the 
    politicians/judges will listen to, then we may be able to
    get something done.  Until then, welcome to "no fault" divorce.
    You've already done more than most men get a chance to do.  

    Until then, then only thing you can really do is DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT,
    DOCUMENT.  Keep a journal of all this stuff going on.  Keep every
    shred of hard evidence that you can glom on to.  Particularly when
    it comes to your relationship with your children.  It can be evidence 
    in going to court. 

    fred();

    My advice is:
    
    DON't drag yourself DOWN trying to make your wife love you.  You will
    lose yourself and your identity in the process!  You cannot
    make someone love you, and you are not responsible for her happiness. 
    Sort out what is best for all parties concerned (YOU, your wife, and your
    children) and proceed with that.  It will be a tough decision. I  know
    how difficult the decision was when I agreed to seperate from my family
    (at my wife's request); but I knew then that staying together and
    creating an unloving and disfunctional environment was bad for my
    family.  I have grown immensely post divorce and I have a whole new
    perspective in life and my ability to handle adversity.  My children
    will be stronger too.  Unfortunately, my ex-wife chooses to be a
    victim.
    
    If your marriage is over, believe you will survive, and then do it. 
    Get a good lawyer and don't make any decisions based on guilt.
    
    my $.02
    
    Steve
    unloving and disfunctional en

    I will concure with the last two. And now, take off the ring. And
    carefully put it some place. I wore mine around for a couple of months
    after my ex had bolted. Thinking there was a ray of hope. Welp... 
    If she doesnt love you, then the cup of reality must be filed and you
    must go on and survive it all. There is a good live after divorce.
    Reguardless if the kids are or are not in the picture. And the best is
    to now prepair for the civil war they call divorce. 
    
    Other good things to do. Stay away from the booz and other substances
    that can weaken the heart, body, and mind. If your a cleaver cookie,
    you will find out what the divorce laws are in each of the states.
    In Maine, where the ex ran off to live and love some drugstore cowboy,
    you can sue the ex's beau for interfiernce with the workings of a
    marriage. Thus, I could of had some Maine vacation property.:)
    
    Turn the hate and crap into constructive work. And that would be to
    successfully get what is fair and just from the divorce. 
    
    And as Fred says about men in the divorce world, its a tuff cup of
    reality to drink.

    Let me also add my agreement to .1 - .3.  Also, **immediately** begin
    (if you haven't already) to protect yourself and your belongings.  
    Remember, if you don't have it, you can't share it with your kids.
    Take an inventory. Make it _complete_.  Look at separating  your
    financial affairs -- bank accounts, stocks, property titles, bonds,
    etc.  My ex took most of what we had in common or joint accounts before
    I even knew that she had filed for divorce.  Find a good safe place for
    things you hold dear.  For instance, if you have any collections -
    coins, stamps, firearms, etc. put them there.  You can be removed from
    what you thought was "your" home at her whim and at a moments notice --
    if you get that much.  If there are any firearms, the police confiscate
    them and you have to go through bloody HEQQ to get them back even if
    they are non-functional antiques.  (I know, it happened to me.)
    
    You have to proactively protect your heritage, your property, and your
    assets for your children.  I have spoken to too many men who have had
    many, many possessions and assets disappear to get thrown away simply
    out of spite by the ex, and they could do *nothing* about it.
    
    If your kids have any savings accounts where she holds joint custody or
    is named as the responsible adult -- get them changed!  My ex took the
    $1000 that my stepfather had given to each of my three kids.  It's been
    almost 3 years since the initial separation and 1 1/2 years since the
    divorce, and I _still_ cannot find out what she did with my children's
    money.
    
    Last, but not least, don't be afraid or ashamed to ask for help or
    someone to talk to.  We have all been there.  It hurts.  A lot.  Having
    been there, we understand.
    
    Steve

    One thought of life you can take as you emotionally divorce yourself
    from it all is, "The ex has had a terrible car crash, she is terminally
    brain dead, and your just going thru the motions of pulling the plug."
    
    And she is brain dead too if you think of the logic behind it all. To
    divorce yourself emotionally to become stronger right now is going to
    help with the civil war ahead. 
    
    Also Rodney Dangerfield. I had a bunch of his jokes that I use to
    read when I got down and dumpy. In fact there was one of his jokes that
    I can actually quote when my ex broke up with her Maine beau to move in
    with a new beau in mass. And that is:"My marriage is on the rocks. My
    wife broke up with her boyfriend." 
    
    Make a joke out of it, its a stupid soap, and unfortunatly your cought
    in the wash. And if your lucky, you'll get your act together before it
    becomes teh spin.

   The following is a reply from the basenoter.


   							Terza
   						    -comoderator-

   ===========================================================================


	I have looked at the responses and Yes, I am attempting to prepare
	myself.  Some questions/comments ...

	o Regarding the marriage being over ... I've presented her with every
	  option I can think of ... but she WILL NOT DECIDE one-way-or-the
	  other.  I really believe she's waiting for me to make the decision
	  for her.  As I described, she seems perfectly happy to have it both
	  ways ... An intact family (me included) and her 'romantic' interest
	  in Alabama.  Everything from an outsiders point of view is perfect
	  with our marriage ... EXCEPT the fact I know she does not love me
	  and will not let go of this relationship with Lamar.  I said, I 
	  want to force the issue under certain circumstances (I cannot abide
	  them physically being together) but only if I can come up with the
	  rest of my life (children, finances) somewhat closely intact within
	  reason.  

	o Anybody know the divorce laws in Alabama ?  Oregon ?  Hey I even
	  thought about slapping a lawsuit on her company for contributing 
	  to the breakup of the marriage by putting these people together
	  (they DONT ALLOW SPOUSES on the trip).  

	o I really don't want to 'go to war' with her.  I just want her to 
	  make up her mind and then reasonably come to a settlement.  I can
	  deal with her not loving me and wanting to leave.  I just don't
	  think my financial life and future should be ruined because she's
	  reliving her high school years.  What I see is that because of the
	  way the laws are (at least here in NH) I have NO LEVERAGE to force
	  a reasonable settlement.

	o Regarding specific suggestions on CC's & Joint Accounts ....

	  - We keep seperate checking accounts and seperate CC's but she
 	    does have an AT&T card that a second card issued from my card but
	    has her name on it.  Can I cancel that ?  My children's savings
	    are in their own DCU accounts and Loretta is not named as a 
	    custodian.  We are joint on the Mortgage and we are joint on the
	    vacation house (which we own free & clear).  The cars are in my
	    name and a recent Energy Loan is in both. 

	  - I would still appreciate a template or an outline of an agreement
	    and any information regarding how to make it binding (notory, etc.)

	
	
	As an aside ... Why is it that women (generally speaking) say they
	want loving fathers and good-with-children, responsible and considerate
	men, men who are sensitive to feelings, etc.  then when they get what
	they're asking for they want something else.  I don't understand 
	and what's worse ....  SHE can't/won't tell me !  

	

    Re. specific question(s) on credit cards: yes you can cancel any
    additional credit cards (such as the one with her name on it) if you
    are named as the account holder.  If it is a joint account, then the
    account must be closed and an individual one opened.  The credit card
    companies are very familiiar with this need, and it only takes a phone
    call (usually), sometimes to be confirmed in writing -- but then it's
    always best if you DO confirm it in writing.
    
    Any property held jointly must stay that way unless she agrees to
    change it/sign it over to you alone.  However, make sure you have the
    deeds/titles in a safe place.  We had ours in a safe deposit box, but
    my ex took the key, opened her own separate safe deposit box, and
    transfered everything to hers before she had me served with the divorce
    papers.
    
    Regarding your last paragraph -- your hurt, pain, and confusion are
    obvious and shared or have been shared by many of us.  I don't know if
    this is the appropriate Conference to explore that area in detail -- up
    to the Moderator.  Perhaps QUARK::MENNOTES.  If the Moderator thinks it
    is appropriate to discuss perhaps some of the female readers of this
    Conference could reply.  We guys have some of our own ideas, but... (I
    think that our comments would reflect our own individual experiences
    and may be somewhat ;-} biased.
    
    Also, the subject of "infatuation" / body chemistry/hormone rushes/'coup
    de foudre' might apply to your situation.  It none- the- less does not make
    it any easier for you to have to deal with.
    
    I empathize with your frustration.                 
    
    Steve

    Be careful with the credit cards.  I had called the 800#s for
    Mastercard, Discover, etc.  They told me that I didn't have to cancel
    the number entirely - I could just have her removed as an authorized
    user.  Next thing I know, she's ordering mail order stuff and I had to
    chase the credit card company again to ask what the ^&^# they were
    doing.  It was much better to get a brand new card issued because and
    cancel the old entirely  - that way she had no knowledge of the new
    card #.
    
    Mike

    O.K... an indecision is a decesion. There is decesion of do, or not do,
    or indecision. 
    
    If she is waiting for you to make the move. MAKE IT HAPPEN! MAKE HER
    DAY! Better you to start it all then to wait till she does. And if
    you have presented all options, she refuses, again its an indecision.
    NO ONE is worth that kinda pain. And my friend. The best thing to do is
    to file first. File for custody, file for adultry, file for mental
    cruelity. For you have done all that would be considered wise and
    prudent. 

    It becomes a game, 'Who Will Press the Button First'. And she is
    taunting you to do so. And she is not willing to make concenses for you
    and for the need of the family unit. You have to be the strong one. She
    will drag you into a position that might make you the villian of
    domestic violence. This is where you now can make the differnence. And
    that is to do all the fighting in court vs in the house making you the
    absolute villian. 
    
    

    ....one last dumb question.... Are you both living in the marrital
    home. Or are you out? If your out. Get back in the marrital home and
    then file FAST! Time is not on your side, and the more you dally, the
    quicker the cement hardens not in your favor. 

    I think she has made a decision and presented it to you.  You are
    trying to get her to change her mind.  She is in a very powerful
    position because you are allowing her to be.
    
    What if:   You say nothing, but while she is away on her Oregonian
    trip, you make plans to go to court and get temporary custody of kids
    and house and have her served in Oregon?  Talk to a slick lawyer,
    document everything that is taking place and has taken place so far, do
    not file for a no fault divorce, file for "mental anguish" or whatever
    they call it in your state, and get these things done while she's off
    with the company trip.
    
    Don't wait for her to leave you, you leave her and take custody of
    everything that is near and dear to you!  Make her fight you to try and
    get these things back, including the kids!
    
    The key to this approach is to say nothing, but spend the time prior to
    her trip preparing for your master plan!  This is what many women have
    done in similiar situations!
    
    Good Luck, the time has come to wake up and move on with your life. 
    Never let anyone keep you an emotional prisoner while they abuse you.
    
    beb
    
    LIFE WILL GET BETTER....EVEN IF IT GETS WORSE FOR AWHILE.

 Annonomous Basenote Author,

 I really sympathsize with your dilema and can feel your pain. After being
 in a somewhat similar situation and trying very hard to make things work
 and save our marriage knowing that her love for me was gone, I didn't
 give up hope. Even after knowing about her affair with a co-worker of hers
 and being misled and lied to, I still didn't give up hope. Now looking back
 after 2 1/2 years of seperation and finally divorce I have only one thing to
 say. Look out for yourself and don't let her lack of feelings for you ruin
 your life! Look at yourself and realize that you are a good person capable of
 loving your wife and children and most of all yourself. You cannot restore her
 feelings of love for you if she doesn't want those feelings to exist and you
 can't restore her love for you by jumping through hoops for her. Our marriage
 counselor said to me "Pick up the pieces and get on with your life. If you try 
 to jump through hoops for her she'll only make the hoops higher and smaller
 until you can no longer succeed. Even if you could she would most likely change
 the game." The only thing that you will accomplish by playing her game is a
 rapid decrease in your self esteem and further suffering and anxiety. If she
 truly wanted to love you then she would break off all contact with this man and
 put effort into finding out why she does not have the feelings she once had for
 you. "BEWARE" if this other man does not fulfill her quest for happiness/love
 that she feels is missing in your marriage she will most certainly find another.
 Most likely closer to home. You are not the problem nor the solution to her
 problem. You are however the scapegoat because you are there and she has no
 body else to blame for her unhappiness. To quote an old cliche. "It is better
 to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all." 

 Take Care!

    Neil... 

    Dear Basenoter:
    
    I have to agree with the previous noter's comments, and would just like
    to add my .02.
    
    You can spend from now until the Second Coming trying to figure out
    what is going on.  The truth is, based on what you have shown us, which
    may or may not be the reality, you're half way there already:  THE
    PROBLEM IS NOT YOU!  Another truth is that you are responsible for YOU
    and only YOU.  As stated previously, you cannot make anyone fall in
    or out of love with you.  You may very well be all the "good" things
    a partner could want.  And, if so, and that partner still wants out,
    then it is not YOUR problem; you do have to suffer the consequences, 
    but it is not YOUR problem.
    
    As for the third party, he's not an issue (you'll see this later);
    third parties are never the issue; they are the logical outcome of
    the real issue.  In short, your wife had already made a decision, 
    and the third party just happened to be there.  It could be anyone;
    it doesn't matter.  There is something else going on with your wife,
    and since she isn't willing to confide in you, the best you can do
    is PROTECT YOURSELF.  
    
    As best you can, try to gain control of your male pride, and do what
    will PROTECT YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN.  The game is over, time to leave
    the playing field; reluctantly, sadly, and with great emotion, but
    still time to leave.
    
    I don't agree you will get the Massachusetts shaft in New Hampshire
    (this is not official advice).  And, even in Mass, you can still take
    steps to protect yourself and come out as you want;  I have a friend
    in Mass who did just that, despite an accusation of wife beating, 
    which was totally false (yes, I do know for a fact it was false).
    
    The previous advice of preparing your offense during her absence is
    excellent.  You are being forced to make the move; don't worry about
    it, DO IT!  The more control you can gain over assets, the better your
    chances of survival in the court system.  If she's waiting on you,
    you're golden, you get to gain the initiative.  That will prove
    crucial to you later, and critical to her.  You will learn through
    this of a thing called, "status quo"; what is, tends to remain what
    is.  Thus, she is out of the house, you're in, you hit her with the
    papers, you get a restraining order, you get control of as many of
    the assets as you can, you change the locks on the doors, exaggerate
    a bit if you wish on the negative side of the relationship from her
    part, have a PI follow her and get info if you want; anything to gain 
    the initiative.  It will save you later.
    
    All this puts you in the driver's seat, and protects what's yours. 
    YOU will get to dictate much of the outcome.  Otherwise, she gets
    the initiative, and trust me, you do NOT want that.
    
    Lastly, I know this is painful, but only YOU will be looking out for
    you once the court process starts.  Clear thinking and decisive action
    is what's called for.  Do the best you can with it.  Forget about the
    why, deal with what is.
    
    God bless. 
    
    From one who did not think clearly, did not act decisively, stayed too
    long in the "why", and learned a very painful, financially debilitating
    lesson.
    
    Ask the "why" later - you'll have plenty of time.  Right now, time
    must be spent more productively.
    
    In my prayers,
    
    Bill     

    Portland, eh? I hear that there is a bodyguard who is looking for a new
    job... ;?)
    
    I've noticed that many notes suggest that you file ASAP. I suggest that
    you interview 2 or 3 attorneys. Each interview should last about 45
    minutes, and shouldn't cost more than $75 or $80.  Talk to the attorney
    about different strategies. As you do so, you'll discover which
    attorney you want to hire. You'll also nail down a strategy. One
    attorney I spoke with suggested that I file right away. Another
    suggested that I stick around and document everything. I chose the
    latter, waiting to file until I felt ready. That strategy has worked
    well for me, and has kept me in the home with our son for seven months
    after filing (we go to court after 12 months). The advice I got is that
    if you feel lonely now, wait until you are living in an apartment, away
    from your child.
    
    One more thing...I'm a firm believer in prayer, and that carries me
    through many days. Good luck to you.

    
    The advice you are getting her speaks volumes.  I know it is a real
    &^%$ to go to war with someone you still care about.  I've seen
    man after man after man that think that if they are just nice to
    her and don't make waves, then she'll eventually come around, and
    if they take a stand to protect themselves, then it will just
    drive her off--right up to the day the court screws them into
    a post hole.  START _NOW_ TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN AND
    YOUR ASSETS.  If things work out, you haven't really lost anything,
    but I've see many many men who don't start and walk out of court
    with a _very_ expensive education.  

    I know the following will be hard to accept.  I had people tell
    me the same thing, but I wouldn't believe it until it was too late.
    Fact is, she __is__ in a very powerful position.  You have two
    choices.  1)Put up with her screwing around or 2)leave.  You've already
    gone the counseling route and basically all you've done is let her
    know that you seem to be willing to put up with most anything in
    order to save the marriage.  This is not likely to change her behavior.
    More likely it just lets her think she can continue to get away
    with it with impunity.  The same story is repeated ad-naseun in
    this very notes file.  Go read some of them.

    To me, it sounds like she wants out, but wants to make you at least
    _look_ like the bad guy, and to her appearances are everything.   It
    will sound odd, but the only chance you have now to salvage anything is
    to follow the advice in the previous notes.  The only hope you have is
    that if you start to withdraw and she still cares enough to try to
    start finding out what is going on and will then try to really work on
    the problem.  If she don't, then the marriage is stone   cold   dead
    already and you had better cover your butt now before she blind-sides
    you with he own slick lawyer.  
    
    fred();

    
    To try to boil the last few notes down into a "sound bite", the
    only "weapon" you have (or at least that she thinks you have)
    is the withdrawal of your love and support.  If that doesn't 
    mean anything to her (or if she doesn't really believe that that
    will happen) then you are screwed.  

    If you start now and fight like hell, then you may be able to salvage
    some of your assets and possibly the custody of your children, but
    statistics show that you will have an uphill fight.  The same
    statistics that she (and her lawyer) will be looking at.

    However, that is the purpose of this file.  To try to change some of
    that.  At least the part about loosing the children.   Until that
    time....

    As fred says, you fight like hell now. And if she wants to be friends
    later. So be it. Remember, your a fat_wallet_with_two_feet. And thats
    how the system views you, so will your ex. Men are not to have
    feelings, cannot nurture, and only order pizza for dinner. Your only
    good atribute is that you can make a hansome wadge to support the her
    cause. And if you dont get your butt into gear, your soon to be ex's
    beau will have more visitiation than you. And better visitation rights
    too. Mean time, if you can afford to sleep in a rooming house, vs your
    car, you will be a visitor in the childrens lives. 

    
    	Here's some advice from another person who went through the whole
    scenerio. As you said earlier it looks like she wants the best of both
    worlds, she does. She is not that stupid to make a move when you are
    still a good provider, etc....maybe she has some hidden agendas with
    this other person....what if she leaves you and she also gets dumped by 
    him at the end ? You better get your act together before she gets a
    lawyer who wants to stick it to you. Please act and try to protect
    what you've worked for all these years.
    	If she doesn't love you, isn't going to work the relationship, then
    you have to do something to protect yourself. Do your children know
    what is going on ?
    	Please don't wait to long and don't batter yourself senseless. Use
    this file for info....most of these noter's have great info and throw
    a little sense of humor along with it which helps.
    
    	take care...

   The following is an anonymous reply from the author of the basenote.


   							Terza
   						    -comoderator-
   ==========================================================================
	Please post as a responce to note 295 in NCP notes file .... txs !


	Well, from the replies, I feel very vunerable and the collective
	voices-of-experience are telling me that it's most likely over and
	to start protecting myself.  It seems to me that you cannot do that
	without instigating a rift between the two of us.  It's either
	attack or die.  And if I attack there will be no reconciliation ...
	EVER !  She'll never let me back in her (or possibly my childrens)
	life.  

	When people say to document, document, document .... what kinds of
	things do you document ?  I've kept a diary for the past 4 years and
	our relationship is documented in there.  She's also kept a diary 
	(that's where I found out about Lamar) and a lot of what's gone
	wrong and her speculation as what she's thinking about doing is in
	there.  Also, she has a box at work that has personal letters and
	gifts from him to her.  Do I have to get them first or can they be 
	required to be produced in front of a judge ?  

	Do I just document things to do with the kids ?  For instance, today
	she refused to take the day off to stay at home with the kids (snow
	day).  I stayed yesterday (Civil Rights Day) but needed to be in work
	today because of meetings.  I got a sitter for the day.
	She rarely will stay home because of 
	sickness, school closings, etc. because her job/boss/company is
	very strict about taking time off.  I could get my boss to let me
	define a work week where I could work at home part-time whereas she
	could not.  Does that help my cause in a custody battle ?

	

    
    re .21

    Most of you documentation needs to be done around "what is best for
    the kids".  That is, you need to be able to show that _you_ are the
    primary caretaker of the children.  Such as things you mentioned--
    you can arrange your schedule to meet the needs of the children,
    you are the one who can take off work if the needs arise, you are
    the one who has worked to keep the family together, etc.  When it
    comes to custody, the court is (should anyway) going to look at 
    everything in the light of "what is best for the children", and
    the burden of proof is going to rest heavily upon _you_.  You
    are going to have to pitch a no hitter (to use a sports metaphor).
    If she gets so much as a walk, you loose.

>	attack or die.  And if I attack there will be no reconciliation ...
>	EVER !  She'll never let me back in her (or possibly my children's)
>	life.  

    Be very, very careful of this.  Actually it is just the opposite
    that is true.   If she really does care about the family and does 
    value your love and support, then your attack may rattle her cage 
    enough to make her take a good look at what she is doing.  If she 
    doesn't, then your playing "Mr. Nice Guy" is only a guarantee of 
    getting screwed.  It may sound odd, but I've seen it happen over and
    over and over.  Oh yes, she'll probably scream and rant about how
    "you're driving her away", but if that is her attitude, then she
    is already gone and is just using that to get her way.
    
    fred();

    .21 The answer is YES! Document it all! And if you can......
    
    PHOTOSTAT HER DIARY!!! And this can and will be used against her@
    
    Yes, its either attack or get killed yourself. Its an adversairial
    game. If you have read the earlier notes as you said you have. You
    will see this theme repeated over and over again. 
    
    And its not her fault, its the system and the way it is set up. Your
    not to win in this game. Just pay, and become a visitor in your
    childrens life. 
    
    Again your call. Either you get on or get off the pot soon. Or you
    will be the pot.... or go to pot.;)
    
    Document the intefacing of her and the children. You see any thing
    distructive there? How about you and her? Her and her beau's?
    
    Her fact that she has not gone to councling? Times, dates, and etc.
    
    If you have a pc at home and a special file that can be hidden 
    in a special floppy disk is a good thing. Thus under her nose
    you have info. And also keep track of the important documents,,
    last years or two's IRS, wills, deeds, stocks, savings accounts.
    If she has a restraining order thrown at you, you scoop up
    the stuff and stash it someplace safe.:) 
    
    Dont forget the camera and tape recorder, and bonculers.:) Toys and
    tools to wadge a good divorce.;) Mine left me all these things.
    They belonged to her, most of it. I used it against her. She, in
    short, left me the guns and bullets to shoot at her.:) 
    
    
    Last thing, again, is your attitude. Your attitude spells out if
    you will win or loose. I have mentioned this already. Its a tuff
    game. And if you have and can develope a healthy attitude about it
    your going to win or survice or get what you want out of it all.
    
    Anyhow,,,, enough rambling... Guess I am a rambling guy! (Steve
    Martian)
    
    

    You can mend bridges later. Right now you need to either figure out for
    youself if you want you want. From the sounds of things of what I read.
    Your not sure, and time is not on yourside if your not getting along.
    
    I thought the same things about the game too, like you. If I start
    WWIII, will there be peace in the middle east?;] Welp.... We talk, 
    she has her life and for me life goes on too. The sun rises in
    the east, and sets in the west as it did yesterday and as it will
    tomorrow.

    I second the previous two noter's suggestions.
    
    I would like to add to exercise stealth whenever you can; you don't
    want to tip your hand until your ready.  Keep in mind you are planning
    and executing a strategy; a strategy that means your very financial
    survival!  Everyone survives divorce.  The problem is that some
    survive very comfortably, while others survive destitutely.  If you
    do not plan and act clearly and decisively, you will be among the
    latter; and I can assure you, you will regret it every day of the
    remainder of your life.
    
    If you can copy her letters, etc. at work without her knowing it, so much
    the better.  I would certainly second copying her diary as secretly
    as possible.  Remember, you do not want to let on to your actions
    until you are ready to take the initiative.  This is critical, 
    because once she gains knowledge of your intent, all hell is going
    to break loose.  Literally.  Relations and emotions will go downhill
    rapidly; communication between you two will be nonexistent; due to
    the emotions at play, neither of you will know what you're saying or
    what you're hearing from the other.  This is why planning is so
    critical AHEAD of time.  With a plan, you simply go on autopilot
    and follow your plan.  
    
    As for the risk of her never letting you back into her life, can you 
    honestly (to yourself) say you are there now?  You are in a triangle, 
    and as such there is absolutley no opportunity for intimacy.
    Triangles are created to avoid intimacy.  And with no intimacy, what
    do you REALLY have now?  (And yes, this goes for Lamar as well)
    
    It's like the substance abuser/co-dependent relationship.  The co-
    dependent doesn't want to enter Recovery because it may mean losing the
    abusing partner.  However, once the co-dependent enters Recovery s/he
    learns that s/he has already lost their partner - to the substance.
    Thus, you can't lose what you've already lost.  She has already told you 
    she doesn't love you, and hasn't for some time. Thus, you are faced with 
    a decision:
    
    	>  You can live with the triangle, and find a way to deal with
           your pain.  And, oh, by the way, today it's Lamar, tomorrow
    	   it will be someone else.  The point here is that she is
    	   shutting you out, and until she understands why, you will
    	   remain out.  There is a reason for her behavior, but again,
    	   for YOU, NOW is not the time to wallow in the why.
    
    	>  You can digest and explore the suggestions in this notesstring, 
    	   and secretly proceed toward a divorce.  This is not to say a 
    	   divorce would actually happen, as there is always room for 
    	   reconciliation.  However, we are proposing that YOU be the one 
    	   to dictate those terms.  If she freaks out when handed the divorce 
    	   papers AND RESTRAINING ORDER, so much the better.  The more she 
    	   reacts emotionally, and you stay on course, the better your odds 
    	   become for a reasonable settlement.
    	   
    	   As for putting you out of her life forever, well, you're already
    	   out. So, what's the trauma?  I don't mean to be hurtful, but 
    	   there is a reality here.  You're out, BUT you want to be out on 
    	   YOUR terms.  And, although you may not see it now, there are over 
    	   5 billion people on this planet, if you are open to love, you will 
    	   find it again.  In time.
    
    	>  Without reading her diary, it would appear your partner has
    	   a lot of issues she's trying to deal with.  You can't fix them.
    	   Lamar can't fix them.  Nor anyone else.  Only your partner can
    	   fix them.  When she's ready.
    
    All this does not mean you can't go on loving your partner; even be
    fair and equitable in the settlement.  All this means is that when
    the rubber of the judicial system hits the road, you're going to be
    tied down spread eagle on the pavement, and it's going to run over
    you like a steamroller, IF you do not prepare for it.
    
    And who knows?  Miracles do happen. It's okay to pray for them,
    and expect them.  However, only the unwise are on their knees when
    they should be on their feet - moving.  There is a time and a place
    for everything; prayer, action.  Keep them in their proper sequence
    and place, and you'll be okay.
    
    God bless and good luck.
    
    -Bill 

    To add to the letting her back into your life. She has slept with one
    man or two or three that she might not have written down in her diary.
    How about this.... would you like to chance her irresponsibility to
    contact an HIV virous.... The more the partner list, the more the
    chance of induction into that quilt. Perhaps you can have a pannel with
    your name, and your childrens name(s), and if your luck..... her
    name.....

    RE:  .26
    
    EXCELLENT POINT, George!!
    
    Also, another behavior to document.
    
    
    
    

    
    re basenoter.

    You're first question was "how to prepare for divorce".  The first
    thing you have to do is realize that there is going to be a divorce.
    I keep hearing you ask (as I kept asking when I was in your position)
    "how do I fix the marriage"?  The answer is _you_ can't.  I was 
    determined that I was going to fix my marriage or die trying.  I
    almost died trying before it soaked in.  If, as I have said earlier, 
    if she cares enough about the loss of your love and support that she is 
    willing to work on the problems then you have a chance.  If not you are 
    up the proverbial creek.  It takes two to make a marriage.  It only
    takes one to make a divorce.

    She may believe that that won't happen (the loss of your love).  The
    only way to convince her of that is to withdraw you love and support
    (ie. attack).  If she cares, then it will be the wakeup call she needs.
    If not, then you haven't lost anything that is not already gone.

    Otherwise she holds all of the cards (and probably knows it).  Unless
    you start now and fight like a banshee (and even then the odds are
    against you) she is going to walk out with her lover, the lion's share
    of the marital property, the kids, and a hefty chunk of you future
    paycheck.  
    
    fred();