Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    you said "on several occasions...you called..." and "you were pis&*(d
    but let it go"...
    
    how serious are you about your parenting role?
    
    why are you allowing this to happen? 
    
    if you REALLY want your kids, go get them.  your "wife's" parent's
    rights DO NOT PREMPT your's.  just go get them (unless some court has
    awarded her custody, or something which would make it kidnapping if you
    did that).
    
    but, from reading between the lines of your note, (and at the risk of
    sounding super-critical of you, which I am NOT trying to be), I'd say
    that wanting your kids at home when you get there is not the real
    issue.  Sounds more like you're upset that your "wife" is apparently
    running around, and you have lost control of the situation.  maybe
    that's overly harsh, I don't know.  Please don't take it as an attack
    on YOU...notes are pretty difficult to interpret correctly.
    
    But, I am really curious as to how this has been allowed to happen for
    such a long time.
    
    tony

    -1 is correct.  If there are not court orders to the contrary, 
    your "wife's" parents have no right whatsoever to tell you that
    you can't take your children.  If they won't give them to you,
    call the police and report them for kidnapping if you have to.
    
    A word of advice (again I am not a lawyer, but someone who has been
    there).  DOCUMENT as much of these shenanagans as possible.  Keep
    a log of when and how long she is missing, where the children are
    when she is missing, and what the enteraction whith her parents is
    when you try to get the children.  If it comes to a divorce situration,
    the judge is going to ask the same question that (-1) did-->**IF 
    you're allowing the children to stay with the grandparents during
    these periods, just how serious is YOUR commitment to the children**?
    
    fred();

    Hey,
    
    Thanks for the input, .1 is right what I'd like is for my family to be
    at home. I will pickup the children from the grandparents on the next
    occurance. Counseling has suggested that I need to decide what I want
    and she needs to decide what she wants. I had thought I was exhibiting
    patience and kindness by allowing "wife" to make decisions around the
    children including where and when they stay away to accomodate her
    expressed desire for time/space/freedom. All the while I have continued to
    finance this cr@#p. The buck stopped last night. Wife intended to go
    away again to her parents as we had disagreed over an upcoming trip she
    wants to make with her girlfriends. I'm selling my assets (motorcycle,
    boat, weights, etc.) to pay the bills and we are in a period of discord and
    I felt it uneccessary, unfeeling, improper, and not inclined to finance
    a trip at this time. In so much as she doesn't want to be around and
    isn't sure if she wants to be married to me at this point in time I was
    relieved to hear that she wanted to run to Momma again. She packed up
    the kids stuff. I told her that she could not take them without a legal
    right. She stayed and told me that I'd really pi@#$ed her off now. I
    arranged for alternate childcare. It had been near her work (70 miles on
    crowded freeways from where she insisted on buying her dream house at
    my expense, read up to 2.5 hours each way=14 hours a day to work 8
    hours!) and within 1/2 mile of her parents. So today I began the Mr.Mom
    routine, up at 05:30. BTW I'm very committed to them, I do feel that
    they would be much better off waking up when they do naturally and
    staying in their own house with their family and eating something other
    than fast food for breakfast and supper etc etc etc.
    
    Regards
    
           

    re .3
    
    I wish you all the best.  However, you may be just starting down 
    a rough path.  Again I caution you DOCUMENT (write down,  keep
    a diary, journal, or log of everything that happens in regards to
    your children).  If it comes to court, you'll need all the help
    you can get.  I don't know about California, but in many/most states,
    a log or a journal can be used in court.  
    
    fred();

    
    
    If you do decide to get a divorce, DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE.
    
    It is my understanding that if you do leave the house, you basically
    are "abandoning" your kids.  This will give more of a "right" of
    the parent that remains in the house to custody.
    
    Can the folks in here help elaborate on this one?!!!
    
    Also, can't he claim that she is abandoning the children?
    
    

    Definately do not leave the house unless court ordered.
    You can claim that she is abandoning the children, but it is
    going to be difficult if you also leave them with her parents.
    Also you will need more than just your word for it.  That's
    why I recommend logging everything that happens.
    
    fred();

    did I miss something?
    
    you and your "wife" evidently discuss this and are open about it and
    your feelings with a counsellor, yet she continues to leave, taking the
    kids, for days at a time, returning when it suits her.  right?
    
    she knows how you feel about this.  the counsellor knows.  do her
    parents know???
    
    this situation makes me want to ask so many questions...there are tons
    of unknowns.  
    
    for starters:
    
    what do YOU think her reason for leaving is?  what does SHE SAY the
    reason is.  ("finding herself" is crap!.)  what does the counsellor say?
    
    why do her parents support her?  how do THEY feel about it?  what do
    they think of YOUR ability to provide care for the kids (not that it
    really means squat what they think...but, it might shed some light)?
    
    do you REALLY want this relationship to get better? or would you rather
    get out!  you have to DECIDE and then work to that goal.
    
    jeeeez, i recently got out of a marriage (six kids) where my wife
    totally ran the show.  i never allowed myself to realize how positively
    horrible the relationship was because ... you supply the rationale... the
    bottom line is that, like yourself (i hope) i FINALLY got fed up with
    being crapped on, and DID something.  you've got to make a similar
    decision.  like my sister (literally) told me: "either shit or get of
    the pot". (apologies to those whom the vernacular offends)
    
    good luck!
    
    tony

    Tony,
    
    Let me answer a couple of your questions. I definitley want this
    marriage to work. Her mom is aware of my feelings about Debbie and our
    kids and their involvement. She wants this to work but when I ask her
    why she allows them to stay there her she replies "Debbie is a big girl
    and can make her own decisions." She says she says she has talked to
    Deb and has understood that Deb wants this to work etc. I might add
    that her mom has had recent experiences with Deb's dad being unfaithful
    and his "other" has showed up in tears at their home and caused quite a
    scene. Her stated feelings around our relationship have varied from she
    wants a life with me to she's not sure, she needs space she wants to be
    alone. These things are contrary to what I need. I'm convinced that I
    cannot continue to support her while she parties in search of her
    feelings and feel good about myself. I will require a legal seperation
    or divorce to accept that she has this kind of "space" and feel like
    I'm getting a fair shake. Legal seperation  would mean to me that
    she will not be dependent on me financially. I will support my children 
    should she gain custody. Our house will have to be sold. To this she
    replied in tears "I don't want to do anything drastic." "I love my
    house." I feel that it is our house, although she picked it out and
    monitored it's construction in every detail it's my only home and I
    sleep there every night. She is worried about what my family will think
    of her. What difference does that make? It's not their marriage.
    I've contacted a new counselor today and thursday at 13:00 pst is the
    1st session. I think that we will continue to see our current counselor
    who is a psychiatrist and internist for our individual problems I
    suspect that he has done nothing for our marriage to this point other
    than point out the obvious, that we have a problem. Thanks for
    participating in this, it helps considerably to have you people
    contributing.
    
    Bob

    re: .7
    
    Although swearing is tolerated to some degree in this file, please
    utilize substitute characters where required.  I s'pose we'll let
    it go this time, just be aware that some people find the swears
    offensive.  If there are any complaints, .7 will be set hidden.
    
    McQ  E. Coast mod
    
    

    
    Re: .8
    
    Your inlaws are doing what is called "enabling."  By letting your wife
    do what she is currently doing, they are helping her to avoid facing the
    issues.  Your wife's current behavior is avoiding the real problem and
    is just making a more complicated mess to sort out when she wears out
    everyone's patience.  As to your children, if I were you I would just
    show up there and take them home.  You don't need anyone's permission
    to do that.  If you start to take action and do what YOU want, i.e.
    having your children at home with you, and leaving your wife to make
    her own decisions, you will be forcing the issues.  Expect "stuff" to
    come about as a result.
    
    Steve