Conference quark::mennotes

    The brunt of the responsibility for birth control should be on....
    
    
    			Both parties.
    
    
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    
    When both parties protect themselves, they have a backup system in
    place in case one method fails.
    
    The idea of thinking of birth control as something that should not
    be done if the other person is doing it - well, it's preposterous.
    
    It's both people's responsibility.  Pure and simple.  No more, no less.

    
    
    I think most will agree with Suzzanne that BC is both party's
    responsibility. I'm wondering if there are any undesirable 
    side affects to the mens birth control method. Has it been tested 
    enough for men to feel safe if they use the new birth control?
    
    Teach children birth control right along with Sexual reproduction classes
    in school. They both go hand in hand.
    
    Increasing testosterone in men?  Not sure if that has any value.
    Have I missed something in MN?
                                      Bill
    
                                                         

Bill:

> I think most will agree with Suzzanne that BC is both party's
> responsibility. I'm wondering if there are any undesirable 
> side affects to the mens birth control method. Has it been tested 
> enough for men to feel safe if they use the new birth control?

  Treatments with testosterone may cause testicular attrophy
  (shrinkage), at least while treatment continues. This is
  a fairly well-known side effect of the (chemically related)
  anabolic steroids. With an adequate hormone level already
  circulating in the blood, the testis aren't cued to produce
  more. That's part of why administration of testosterone
  blocks spermatogenesis, but it also causes the testis to
  lose mass over time as they "idle".

  Gossipol has been played with by the Chinese for years. It
  had at least some toxic side effect but I don't recall the
  specifics.

  Me? I'm hoping for "Vas Valves"! I ought to trademark the name!

  Seriously, there's some progress being made on the front of
  removable silicone or Teflon plugs to block the vasa. But
  like a real vasectomy, there are long-term effects on sperm-
  atogenesis that decrease the long-term reversibility of these.

  And so-called "no-scalpel" vasectomies are rapidly replacing
  the old "two-slits" vasectomies as the permanent method of choice.
  In the new style, the two incisions are replaced by a single
  small puncture at the front of the scrotum. Reportedly, it
  requires no stitches and heals much more rapidly than the old
  style. There are still the same low risks of potential side
  effects (of infection, sperm granuloma, blowouts of the epi-
  didymus, reconnection, etc.) as in the old method.

                                   Atlant

 .1> The idea of thinking of birth control as something that should not
 .1> be done if the other person is doing it - well, it's preposterous.

     Unfortunately, it's reality...

 .1> It's both people's responsibility.  Pure and simple.  No more, no less.

     Ultimately, you are absolutely correct but your message is subtly wrong.
     In counseling our children we need to stress INDIVIDUAL responsibility
     which is a much stronger message.  We need to tell children the
     ramifications when/if their INDIVIDUAL choice of Birth Control fails (it's
     not realistic to tell them to read MENNOTES :-) and, armed with the truth,
     we need to TRUST them to do the right thing...

    Well, hopefully, children don't read Mennotes.  :>

    When asked the question 'Who is responsible for birth control?', 
    my answer must be, 'Both parties are responsible.'

    When teaching this lesson, I agree with you that each person must
    be taught to believe that he/she is personally responsible.

    This has been done already in Holland, and the result is that most
    teenagers do not have sex at all.  They wait until they are older,
    even though the adults don't care if the teens have sex or not
    as long as they protect themselves.

    The birth rate for unmarried women is a small fraction of our rate
    (per capita), and their abortion rate is 1/10th of our abortion rate
    per capita.  (Abortion is legal there.  People from other countries
    sometimes go to Holland to have their abortions, in fact.  The rate
    is still the lowest in the Western world.)

    Having both partners take responsibility for birth control would
    help a great many problems in this country.

    re .5  Suzzanne
    
    Suzzanne, I could'nt agree with you more on the birth control stuff.
    Both parties are responsible.  However, the difference is that the man
    has no control of the outcome if the woman gets pregnant, do you agree?
    As far as using condoms, alot of people simply just don't like them
    because of the way they feel.
    
    Dom

 .5> Having both partners take responsibility for birth control would
 .5> help a great many problems in this country.

     Actually, having Men take more responsibility for birth control would
     alleviate a great many problems in this country...

 .5> This has been done already in Holland

     Ah yes, the Dutch...  I remember seeing a news program reporting exactly
     what you said.  The camera panned a bar and every male held up a condom
     (one guy held up two - he was gonna go "double-dutch" that night).
     Dutch males have figured out that when they participate in birth control
     they will get more sex :-)  Because of this one little fact, Hedonism
     has actually DROPPED in Holland...

 .6> However, the difference is that the man has no control of the outcome
 .6> if the woman gets pregnant, do you agree?

     You have a chance to play a game but up front you know the outcome will
     be a loss...  Think you will play that game?

 .6> As far as using condoms, alot of people simply just don't like them
 .6> because of the way they feel.
    
     The game requires the proper "uniform".  Guess you can't play...

> This has been done already in Holland, and the result is that most
> teenagers do not have sex at all.  They wait until they are older,
> even though the adults don't care if the teens have sex or not
> as long as they protect themselves.

  I'm not so sure about "don't have sex at all" (depending on
  what we define as "sex"). But they certainly are less likely
  to have procreative sex.
                                   Atlant

> Suzzanne, I could'nt agree with you more on the birth control stuff.
> Both parties are responsible.  However, the difference is that the man
> has no control of the outcome...

  There's a pun in there, but I think I'll keep it under wraps.

                                   Atlant

    Men and women both have responsibility for Birth Control.  In the ideal
    world of Meg, this would be discussed by both parties up front, and
    decisions made about what one will do if there is an accidental
    conception.  While a condom and the pill are closer to 100% than even
    sterilization there  are still times when both methods will fail.  
    
    As far as BC teaching to my kids:  I have daughters.  They are informed
    about sexuality and where babies come from on an age appropriate basis. 
    I start with contraception at the same time.  With the exception of the
    youngest, they all know contraception can fail (she is only 3) and that
    young men who love them will also use a condom, not just for pregnancy
    prevention but also for STD prevention.  They are also told to use
    their own protection and are given the list I have posted in another
    string in this conference on contraception failure rates.  
    
    I have explained that pregnancy is a life changing event, no matter
    what the choices are made around all the options available.  My two
    older kids have seen babies born when they were old enough for it to
    make an impression.  Carrie was born at home when Lolita was 11 1/2 and
    Atlehi when Carrie was 7 1/2.  They know that babies are not the cute
    bundles of romance that come into the world with no effort, and aren't
    always pleasant and loving to be around.  
    
    If I had had a boy he would get the same information.  In fact I gave
    the facts of life to my nephew, as my brother couldn't bring himself to
    give them to him, and bought him his first pack of condoms.  It must
    have worked as he was more active with a number of partners than I
    approved of, and didn't have an unplanned pregnancy throughout his
    young years.  He and Cher now have a charming son about 6 months
    younger than Atlehi, and he was planned.  (His mother lives in
    Australia so she wasn't around to give him guidance on the facts
    either.) 
    
    meg
    meg
    FYI:
    
    Vasectomies fail about 1.5% of the time, and Tubal ligations at about
    4%.  There are long-term complications in both cases for a small number
    of people as well as the attendant risks for any surgery.  women who
    have had tubal ligations have a higher rate of hysterectomies than
    those who don't choose sterilization.