Conference quark::mennotes

    Its over when both parties say it is. Best, get your best duds on, go
    out and find someone else. And be open with the mind. Who know whats
    next around the bend. :) Thats the exciting part. When she says its
    over. Its over. And let it go at that. 

    re .1
    Nope. It's over when _one_ party says it is.  It takes 2 to make a
    relationship, but only one to break it.  

    I guess you could subscribe the old saying, "If you love someone, let
    them go.  If they don't come back, then track them down and kill them".
    -or something like that ;^}.

    Seriously, IMHO, take her a single red rose.  If that doesn't cause a
    reaction, then the relationship is stone-dead-cold.  Don't walk,
    run.  I also read somewhere that if you start to pull away, and the
    other person still cares about the relationship, then the other person
    will start to hang on.  If not, time to shoot the relationship in the
    head and put it out of your misery.
    fred();

    FWIW:
        Emotional relationships are never over. They just change form.
     
    I realize that it doesn't have the form that you want it to have, and
    you have my sympathy for that. We've all been there. But i don't think
    you can "make" it be what it once was. 
      You can wait until she's ready. You can wait until you "know" it's over.
    You can wait until someone else takes a place in your heart. 
      The easiest thing for me (did i say easy ?) is to accept the 
    relationship that you CAN have and make sure that you don't loose that 
    by trying to construct the relationship that you prefer. 
    
       If it's meant to be, it will be. She may not know it's meant to be,
    and you may not know it's not meant to be.  Yet. 
      Support her in her search; and she'll love you for it.
    
                               good luck..............Marc
                                                    

	The question is what has she done to make you feel insecure
	about your relationship. If you can identify concrete examples of 
	where her actions have made you feel insecure, or unsure, I'd discuss 
	them with her. I'd tell her how her actions had made you feel, I'd 
	tell her what my expectations were and then I'd judge where the 
	relationship is, from her perspective, based on how she reacts.

	She has the option of being open and honest with you, so you'll 
	know immediately, or she can try and avoid your question and your 
	feelings, in which case you know she's also feeling insecure about 
	the relationship. It could be that you've reacted in a situation
	which has made her feel uncomfortable and insecure and she's
	just withdrawing slightly from you - preparing herself for the
	worst. Preparing for you to dump her. In which case I'd ask her
	what was bothering her.

	If something bothers me, I come right out with it. I don't let
	it fester and I try not to be too sensitive. My suggestion is,
	do the same. Get your problems out where both of you can start
	dealing with them and good luck.

	- Paul.	 

I can't agree with the person that said something like "put on your
best duds and go out and find someone else".

If your relationship is over, then let it be over, and I'm sorry you're in
so much pain.  I know it's been real hurtful to me when relationships have
ended that I was still in love with.

However, I've been learning that it's better *not* to run out and find
someone else.  Sometimes that's just escaping from feelings and situations
I need to deal with.

Sometimes it's better to intentionally *not* run out and find someone else.
Take time off.  Grieve the old one.  I don't mean sulk and be in the muck.
I mean healthy grief.  Cry if you need to.  Cry at a meeting, or cry with
a good friend.  Or just talk with a good friend.  Go do non-on-the-make
things for awhile.

I'm starting to think there's too much continual running to the next one
going on...

/Eric

    
    have you tried talkinga bout it, just asking "hey, I feel like our
    relationship is not growing - can we talk about it?".  If you both
    agree it's been deteriorating, then ask yourselves "do we wnt to work
    on it, or let it go?"  have a real heart-to-heart.
    
    if this kind of conversation isn't possible, I'd guess you have your
    answer - since (at least for me) a long term relationship needs to be
    able to support this kind of emotional intimacy and openness.
    
    what would it take for me to feel a relationship was over? 
    overwhelming violation of the groundrules that form the integrity of a
    relationship (cheating, lying, stealing, physical abuse, etc.)
    
    -Jody
    

    With the social atmosphere about where people throw out marriages,
    relationships, etc like trash. You cannot change the world, so you get
    use to it. And join in. Asin put on your best duds and go out and find
    someone else. :) 
    
    Peace
    

    	My best friend is in the middle of a breakup. She probably has even
    more problems than you since they have joint ownership of a house. They
    try to avoid both being in the house at the same time.
    
    	I can advise you to try to be civil and cooperative even if it is
    clear the relationship is not going to work. She is going to pick him
    up from the airport this afternoon as he returns from a business trip.
    She is probably then going to inform him that he has to go out to buy
    cat food for *his* cats since they are running low. I would hate to be
    in either side of that relationship, but I have heard of much worse.
    
    	Dave

    The "put your best duds on" admonition looks to me like the sort of
    thing that will lead in the long run to co-dependency.  When your
    present relationship fails, you've just got to have another or
    you'll...  It's the same thing that keeps an alcoholic or a drug user
    hooked.
    
    Don't get hung up, basenoter, and don't fall into an endless loop. 
    Take the advice in .5 and look things over.  If this one is through,
    it's through, and you should walk.  But you need to prove to yourself
    that you can live without someone to hang onto, or you'll never be able
    to do that.  Once you have established that you're okay as a person
    living for yourself, then there's plenty of time to look for someone
    else to share yourself with.

    Firstly, thanks for the comments. I'm grateful.

    For both of us it is a relationship after two failed marriages so I'm
    not going to rush into another one right away. 

    She's is the type who will say nothing that will influence events,
    preferring to sit back and watch what happens. Getting her to talk
    about our relationship is nearly impossible.
                        
    I think I've hurt her a lot and I think it's because she thinks I'm 
    leaving, she even said she wants me to go ( last Sunday ) after another
    heated debate. I've told her I'm not going but it makes no difference.

    I normally hold doors open, buy flowers etc by the way.

    �The "put your best duds on" admonition looks to me like the sort of
    �thing that will lead in the long run to co-dependency.
    
    Yes, do be careful, you might go on to heaver things.... Like wearing
    polyester, heavy wolls in the summer time. And.... aaah.... You might
    start dressing like Elvis! yha know that white jump suit, those long
    tasles... And geeze! I can't stand it!.... You just might come out of
    hiding!:) 
    
    Wow! Is there a self help group for folks like us?:) Someone wanna
    buy some Elvis style clothing? :-)
    
    

    re .10

>    I think I've hurt her a lot and I think it's because she thinks I'm 
>    leaving, she even said she wants me to go ( last Sunday ) after another
>    heated debate. I've told her I'm not going but it makes no difference.

    I was in a relationship like this once.  Every relationship that she
    had had went bad.  So she was so sure that things would go bad this 
    time that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The more I treated 
    her nice, the less she knew how to handle it.  She kept waiting for
    "the other shoe to drop".  "Feelings" are an awfully strong influence, 
    even when you "know" better.  

    You may be afraid to bring up the subject for fear of what you'll find,
    but doing nothing will be a _guarantee_ of failure.  A good
    relationship is more of a _decision_ between two people than a happening.
    If you really want to keep the relationship together then the first
    question to her should be, "Do you want to keep this relationship 
    together"?  If the answer is "no", then it's better you find out so
    you can quit torturing yourself and get on with your life.  If the 
    answer is "yes", then you need to ask what it is that is tearing the 
    relationship apart.  If the answer is "I don't know", (and maybe even
    if she does know), then I would suggest that you both seek professional 
    counseling _together_ to try to find out why.

    fred();

Re.10

>	Getting her to talk about our relationship is nearly impossible.

	In my opinion, that's your starting point. She needs to, and you need
	to help her, find a way of saying, of telling you, what she thinks
	and how she feels. Sitting back and waiting is taking the minimum
	risk. Did her last relationship end badly ? Has she had any happy
	relationships ?

	I was on a course (personal development program) where we were asked
	to discuss our relationships, private and professional. There was an
	attractive, very pleasant, woman on the course who, when it was her
	turn, couldn't open up. She just couldn't say how she felt about X
	or Y. She gave nothing, and risked nothing.

	It turned out that, as a girl, her Father had used her for sexual
	favours. When her Father came home drunk, he'd abuse her Mother but 
	she'd worked out a way of protecting her Mother if she, well work it out.
	She hates her brother because she feels that he should have stood up 
	for her and her mother. When her Father died, she didn't shed one tear.

	As a woman she's found every relationship with a man difficult. She 
	can't discuss how she feels and she always waits for her boyfriend to 
	leave. 

    Relationships are usually long over BEFORE you know they
    are over. When time passes and you can look objectively
    over the situation you will probably see that. Until then
    it takes two to tango...

For a few days we seemed to be getting on, I felt that it was the end 
of another bad period. Then last weekend we parted. Oh well!

My thanks to everyone who replied, I appreciated the trouble you all 
went to.

Thanks.

    Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.:) 
    
    George

.16> Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.:) 
    
    Even better to have loved and lost and then blown up her condo. ;')
    
    Woman I used to work with had this happen to her last week.  Oddly
    enough, all the guys from DEC who knew her said the same thing :
    "she probably coulda driven me to do the same thing."

    re .17, yes, when a man acts violently towards a woman, it's very
    common for the man to claim that the woman "drove" him to it, thereby
    blaming the victim, and removing any blame from the man.
    
    But, I think that people who believe we are all responsible for our own
    actions, in this world, know that nobody can drive us to violence with
    mere words.  I think most people realize that violence is only
    acceptable when used in actual self-defense.
    
    One of my ex-boyfriend's wife divorced him because he hit her so hard 
    that she slammed into the wall, and she was 5'11" and over 200 lbs.  He 
    said the first time she hit him, she got up, but the second time he hit 
    her she stayed down.  Of course, I had been with him for quite awhile
    before I learned of this story.  He used to say she "drove" him to it,
    but she had never layed a hand on him before.  Once during an argument
    I told him that his wife could not "drive" him to hit her that much,
    that he owned the responsibility for hitting his wife, and that it was
    wrong for him to do it.  He told me that if I ever said that again,
    he'd kill me.  I believed him, so I never said it again.  I don't see
    him anymore.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
  >>  But, I think that people who believe we are all responsible for our own
  >>  actions, in this world, know that nobody can drive us to violence with
  >>  mere words.
  
	Beg to differ - it happens all the time.  It's the nature of the
	beast, irrespective of how reprehensible it might be.

  >>  I think most people realize that violence is only
  >>  acceptable when used in actual self-defense.

        I don't know if most people realize it, but one
	would hope that's true.

People are always talking about being "driven to violence" or being "driven
crazy".  Frankly, I don't plan to let anybody drive me anywhere.

80)

    Re what Jim said.
    
    I can't control another person's actions, but I can control my
    reactions to those actions.
    
    Meg

    re .20, .21, exactly.
    
    Lorna
    

.17>    Even better to have loved and lost and then blown up her condo. ;')

I guess from the trailing face that this is meant as a joke.  It didn't 
make me laugh.

>    Woman I used to work with had this happen to her last week.  Oddly
>    enough, all the guys from DEC who knew her said the same thing :
>    "she probably coulda driven me to do the same thing."

We all say things in casual conversation that we don't really mean.  Speaking 
casually, I might say something like that myself.

Speaking seriously, I would not.  I'll agree with several previous that I
would rather not give up responsibility by saying that somebody else "coulda
driven me to do" something.  

Nobody has ever driven me to do anything like blowing up a condo.  Nobody
has ever come close.  I can't be sure what I would do in a situation I have
never faced, but I expect I could find some less violent way of getting my
needs met.

    Gee Wally. What can one say. Perhaps you have never had someone in your
    face like that to get that raged. But, to make such statements is to
    say what kind of hero you would be if given the chance before you got
    into the battle is rather fool harty. :) 
    
    You can always say what a big strong person you are till it happens to you.
    But then someone is going to say to you what a good person you are to
    make such a statement you have. 
    
    In short, I rather doubt that you have a idea of what your talking
    about.;)

    re .24, how do you know what his past experiences in life are?
    
    You don't know who he's had in his face, or how he's dealt with it, do
    you?  So, maybe it's not your place to doubt how he thinks he would
    act.
    
    People are different.  Just because you might respond to a certain
    situation in a certain way, doesn't mean that everyone would.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    true love means never to say your are sorry.
    
    hope this helps.
    
    \nasser

    
  >>  I can't control another person's actions, but I can control my
  >>  reactions to those actions.

	That's very admirable.  However, it doesn't mean that everyone
	can, even people who are normally responsible for their own
	actions, civilized, etc.  There's no telling what might trigger
	the gentlest of souls to suddenly go off the deep end.

    Re: .26
    
    That only works if you're Ryan O'Neal. 
    
    		Steve

    re .28, and I don't think it would even work for him anymore.
    
    It's been a long time since he looked like he did in Love Story.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Bet yha that the guy who blew up the condo wishs he was Ryan O'Neal and
    instead of blowing up a condo, she dies of cancer.:)

    .25
    
    Funny. This is the question that I was asking. Guess your not reading
    it or like your pal. You just dont get it.
    
    
     ost

	re: 30
		Got your cruel shoes on.     Even with the ":^)".

	j.b.

    re .31, what I am trying to say, that you apparently don't get, is that
    I think a person should be able to say what they think, or believe,
    they would do in a given situation, without having what they say
    doubted by others.  Why should you question what he or anyone else says
    they think they would do?  If, in the future, he is proved wrong, call
    him on it if you feel like it.  But, why not give him the benefit of
    the doubt until the time that his actions actually disprove what he
    said (if ever)?  
    
    Because people really are different and not everyone responds the same,
    and you really don't know how he, or anyone else, will respond to a
    particular situation.  For all you know, maybe he really is
    non-violent.  It just bothers me when one person says how they think
    they will or won't act in a given situation, and somebody else, who
    doesn't even know them, pipes up and tells them that's not really how
    they would act.
    
    Lorna
    

.24>    say what kind of hero you would be if given the chance before you got
>    into the battle is rather fool harty. :) 
    
Please reread .23, particularly

.23> I can't be sure what I would do in a situation I have never faced,

I am not so foolhardy as to make definite predictions.
    
.24>    In short, I rather doubt that you have a idea of what your talking
>    about.;)

I was talking in .23 about my self and my life experience.  I may not know 
much about either, but you are not in a good position to tell me that.

I was also talking about what I might do in a situation I have not been 
faced with, just like the guys you quoted with approval in .17.  Is this 
only OK when you agree with what is said?

.33> I think a person should be able to say what they think, or believe,
.33> they would do in a given situation, without having what they say
.33> doubted by others.  Why should you question what he or anyone else says
    
    Ok, then why did you hop all over my condo reply?
    
    Or is this another case of one set of rules for Lorna, one set for
    

.35>.33> I think a person should be able to say what they think, or believe,
.35>.33> they would do in a given situation, without having what they say
.35>.33> doubted by others.  Why should you question what he or anyone else says
.35>    
.35>    Ok, then why did you hop all over my condo reply?
.35>    
.35>    Or is this another case of one set of rules for Lorna, one set for

Gee, maybe I'm mistaken Mike, but I think in .33 Lorna is saying she doesn't
like it when person A predicts what person A would do in a given situation,
and person B says "you would do something else".   It seems to me that in
.18 Lorna states that each of us is responsible for what we do, i.e. no one
can make us do anything.

These two seem consistent to me.   They both talk about each of us owns
what we do.    Neither of them says other people have to approve what we
would do, just not deny it.

In 17 you made a joke about violence.   We all know you aren't allowed to
go blow up your girl friends condo.   I certainly can understand that sometimes
a man can be angry and wish he could do such a thing.

Making a joke about blowing up the condo is a way to make a threat and be
able to deny it meant anything.   (I'm not sure but isn't this usually
labeled as passive aggressive behavior?)   A lot of people are smart enough
to see the hidden threat. 

It seems to me that a lot of your noting is very aggressive.

Your reading may vary.

    Yes, you did read it differently.

    I meant it the way .36 thought I did.
    
    Lorna
    

    .18 I don't see him anymore.
    Excellent note Lorna. In those situations it is time to get out of
    there fast before becoming a punching bag. My sister is a divorce
    veteran (four) and tells my mother, "Thanks for putting up with my
    father's crap as long as you did, Ma, because it isn't going to happen
    to me". To say her b.s. tolerance is low, is an understatement. You 
    are very perceptive to pick up on the warning signs and to get out of
    there early.