Conference quark::mennotes

    No. I've always encouraged him to do the things he's interested in.
    Music lessons, for example, were always considered a girl thing when
    I was growing up. My son has musical talent and interest so I've 
    encouraged that and paid for lessons.

    I also believe, as did my father, that cooking was an important skill
    for people interested in eating so my wife and I have long involved him
    in that process. I've made it clear to him that he *will* do well in
    keyboarding class in high school. The days of that being a "female thing"
    only are long gone I hope but it's still not moved into the "male
    thing" category.

    The sports he plays are those he's interested in. Basketball for
    example. Now maybe I did give him some extra encouragement in that
    area because I like it. But on the other hand it was his mother who
    played varsity basketball in high school not his father. So we've
    never viewed that game as a male thing. He plays it with girls all
    the time anyway.

    			Alfred

    
    I still have two daughters and one son at home.  I've made a conscious
    effort not to divide work into guy/gal activities.  If we work on the
    house and yard, they all work.  They all take turns with dishes and
    all take care of their rooms and share housework.  Cooking and sewing
    and such are things, IMHO, that _everyone_ should know enough about
    to get by.  If it comes down to it, I can probably cook as good as
    my wife (she doesn't work, outside the house that is), but I have a 
    couple of brothers that if they didn't have someone to cook for them, 
    they'd starve.

    The only thing I really "push" is school work, and even that they
    all get ragged on equally.  My oldest daughter just finished 
    Algebra I in 1/2 year + summer school.  Had to in order to graduate
    this year.

    fred();

    	My son never has taken to sports, considered the "male" domain.
    That is until this year. I made him sign up for basketball in order to
    meet some new boy friends. He's spent most of his time playing with
    girls in the past year and I felt that he needed more time away from
    them. As it turned out, he loves playing basketball and being on the
    team. He wants to sign up for Little League this summer.
    
    	He's going to be 10 tomorrow. He is an extrodinary illustrator.
    He's been to two art schools but wanted out because they don't mainline
    the courses in his two favorite mediums.....India Ink and pencil. He's
    extremely imaginative and his created 2 comic strips of his own. He
    draws all of his spare time and I believe he could sell some of his
    stuff. Especially his colored dinosaur cartoons. This is one area I've
    encouraged and spent much money in providing good materials. I don't 
    know if you've checked out what paper costs...8^)
    
    Ken 

    What a stretch of men vs. women, male domain, female domain, issues I
    am running into today reading through Mennotes.  But here goes again:

    I have to be careful NOT to push my son into things which used to be
    considered male activities.  I would have Society to answer to if I
    got him thinking along the lines of 'male activities, female
    activities'.  

    Actually I don't think about it much because you can't take the 'horse
    out of the horse'. By that I mean that he WILL be interested in things
    which are appropriate to his personality, and if because he is a boy
    he tends to be more interested in activities which used to be considered
    male activities then there is not much I can do about that.

    What I DO find myself NOT doing is steering him away from traditional
    female activities because I believe the statement which I made in
    another string in this notesfile which said that males and females
    are inately different.  By definition then he will be interested in
    things which are appropriate for males even if some of them have been
    considered female in the past. 

    So to sum it up I encourage him to do the things he likes, period. 
    Interestingly enough most of those activities are things which one
    would expect a boy to be interested in.  Have I subtlely encouraged
    those interests, yes, probably, but as I said you can't take the horse
    out of a horse.

    Jeff

    
    
    
    
    -1  Last several
    
    
     Why is everyone so damn concerned with not influencing their children
    in a particular direction?? Has the feminist crowd convinced you of
    something??
    
    David

    David, my last note in which I indicated I was SO careful not to push
    my son toward any traditional (in the PAST traditional anyway) male
    activites was  tongue-in-cheek.  I wanted to see if anyone would 'jump
    on me' for NOT doing it, and, I am glad to see that there is somebody.
     
    In reality I do what seems natural.  If my son is interested in the
    traditinal male things, such as cars, trucks, airplanes, etc. rather
    than dolls I certainly don't discourage him.
    
    My wife gave him a doll when he was about three.  I stood back, kept
    my mouth shut and watched to see what would happen.  He had NO interest
    in the doll.  I was glad he didn't but could have handled it if he had.
    
    "Did you send him subtle body language messages which told him he had
    BETTER not be interested?"  Hell, I don't know, I don't think so.
    
    I see some of the people pushing ABSOLUTELY NO gender oriented roles
    (except perhaps procreation) as going so far the other way as to push
    girls toward traditional boys activities (Little League) and boys 
    toward dolls when the individual has not interest in that activity.
    
    The approach I follow with my son is to let him be interested in what
    he is interested in.  So far I have not had any issue with what those
    interests have turned out to be.  Fortunately for me most of his interests
    coincide with mine which means we have more common ground actitities
    to do together.  But if he does develop interest in say, ballet then
    I will do my best to support him.  I can't say I would be thrilled
    because I have no interest in it, but I would do my best.
    
    Jeff

    
    	Sounds like being a good father to me...
    
    	-Erik

    Re .5
    
    I exposed both of my children (Kate, now aged 25, and Paul, now aged
    23) to the same opportunities - and to the same responsibilities - so
    that they would have good information on which to base their life
    choices.  They both know how to cook as well as they care to, they both
    know how to sew.  They also both know how to change a car's oil or
    spark plugs and how to build a bookcase out of boards and screws.  And
    they're both completely at home in front of a computer, and they are
    both avid readers.  And they both vote in every election.
    
    Each person has his or her own natural talents and so on.  To try to
    push a child who might be a good ballet dancer into a life that denies
    him or her the use of this talent would be immoral.  A push into a life
    that *requires* use of this talent would be similarly immoral, because
    the child might also have the talent to be a brain surgeon.  It is (or
    should be) up to the *child* to decide how he or she will live life,
    not the child's parents.  That's why we're concerned.
    
    -dick

My son is 13.  I got custody of him last May of 92.  My "X" didn't let him or
encourage him to do squat.

Seems some folks have a hard time with the word, "push".  It's not a bad word.
Some say, "I let my children decide their interest."  I suppose that's the
politically correct attitude for the times.  But I say, "screw that".

I "encourage" my son, (push if you will), by talking to him about "exploring"
activities.  Last spring when I got custody, he wanted to play basketball.  I
signed him up for basketball camp.  The other kids were much better than him.
Living under his mother had set him way back with other kids.  He wanted to
quit at first, but I encouraged him to continue, telling him to give it a
chance.  I attended much of his camp as a show of support.  He stuck it out and 
was awarded, "Mr. Hustle".  I played/coached him all summer, putting up a ball
goal in the back yard.  Today, ALREADY, he is a good ball player and beats
other kids that come visit.  Did he improve?  I've seen him drive the ball to
the basket and take it between his legs in the process and score.  Okay, he
gets those moves after me!  Really.

I also started him snow skiing two years ago.  I taught him myself.  We ski
blue and black slopes together today.  I also started him riding mountain bikes
with me.  We've been some places on bikes that others wouldn't want to hike!
I got him interested in photography and videography.

I spoke with him about music, had him tested, and signed him up.  He is playing
the keyboard.  Recently he was in a festival where he competed.  He brought
home 6 trophies.  He is loving music.  He practices hard and also plays in the
band with the music school that teaches.

My "X" also said she didn't want to push him, that she wanted him to make his
own decisions in life.  She's a bleeding heart liberal and feminac to boot.  I
think that kind of thinking is a load of horse-hocky.  I believe a parent has
the responsibility to "push" a little.  Try the child in one area.  If he/she
hates it, move on to something else.  But "push" all the same.  People by
nature are lazy.  Children need direction.  I have found that by talking with
your child, you can lead them into trying things, almost making them think it's
their OWN idea.

Is that macho?  And what's wrong with Macho anyway?  I'm a black belt and a
boxer.  Again, I haven't pushed any of that.  Now sometime soon, I may start
working some self-defense with him, but it has to be done, "carefully".  You
have to be a decent "coach".  It's easy when your child looks up to you.

For sons, though I ain't a Bly supporter, I do agree with him that some things
a wymin just can't give to a boy.  He needs a man to relate with.  Now there's
a new problem... some "men" ain't "men".

I'm quite proud of my son, Bob Berry.  

    "God gave kids TWO parents" for a reason.  The kid 'should' learn manly
    things from his father and other males, and more feminine things from
    his mother and females.  Balance is important I think.  In the case of
    your son the balance was too far the other way for a while there.  For
    single parents.... one must do the best they can to expose the kid(s)
    to the opposite gender in appropriate ways to balance things out.
    
    For same sex parents (and I am seeing more of that lately) I would
    think the same holds true as for single parents as far as exposure to
    the opposite gender is concerned. 
    
    Sounds as if you have a healthy positive relationship with your son
    Dwight.
    
    I agree with most of the comments you made.
    
    Jeff

	Dwight, I think you did the best thing. A lot of kids will say they
want to do something, you sign them up and before you know it they aren't doing
it anymore. By you encouraging him to stick with it (basketball) and the fact
that you took the time to be with and support him had to help out immensly.
From the sound of things you have a very good reason to be proud of your son.
Also of yourself for being there when he needed you. I have a question. If he
chose to pick up a talent that wasn't considered to be the mainstream macho man
stereotype, would you also support him? 



Glen

    Re .9: Sounds good to me - there's a difference between encouraging
    somebody to give something a good strong effort, and pushing them
    inexorably into something they hate. Sounds like you struck a fine
    balance. (It's not always easy to tell, certainly, where the line is
    for a given kid and a given activity. Some skills - reading, say - are
    sufficiently important to life-as-we-know-it that considerably more
    effort ought to go into teaching _that_, no matter how much it's
    hated...)
    
    Re .10: Balance _is_ important. But the fact is that some kids identify
    more strongly with their same-sex parent than other kids do. Seems to
    me any and all parents (I hear lots of kids these days have _more_ than
    two parents!) should be trying to teach all they can, and to encourage
    the kids to try all manner of skills, be they traditional-masculine,
    traditional-feminine, or as-yet-unspecified. You never know when
    someone will encounter that new idea, new skill, new area of interest
    that makes the eyes light up...
    
    And if, after having all these options available, a majority of boys
    still choose the traditional-manly things and most girls the
    traditional-womanly, why, that's fine, too.
    
    -b

RE:  Note 17.11   DEMING::SILVA 

>If he chose to pick up a talent that wasn't considered to be the mainstream
>macho man stereotype, would you also support him? 

I sense you have a problem with "macho".  I don't consider playing the keyboard
a macho thing, nor photography.  Does that answer your question?  As to other
talents, I'd have to know more details.  For example, I wouldn't want him to
box for a living, nor play football, out of fear for his health.  I'd love for
him to be a pro golfer, which also isn't considered macho.  But he could
support his old man.  :)  Did I mention that I took him to golf lessons too? 
He's got a good swing for a kid.

Now if he wanted to sit around and make quilts, then I'd encourage him to get
off his butt and do something else.  Again, YOU can lead a person to think that
your/their thoughts are their own ideas.  You better believe that as adults, we
have the power to influence our kids, IF we have a healthy relationship with
them to begin with.  I am not just a father to my son.  I am his friend.

11 If he chose to pick up a talent that wasn't considered to be the mainstream
11 macho man stereotype, would you also support him? 

13 Now if he wanted to sit around and make quilts, then I'd encourage him to get
13 off his butt and do something else.

Dwight, I think it is wonderful that you have chosen to encourage and support
many of the activities you son has been involved in.   Many parents don't and
the children lose.  You seem to be instilling in him the importance of doing
one's best.    I think that is super.

But as I read your message I also see an attitude that some activities are
unworthy of a male.    It is only a short step from "quilting isn't worthy
of a male" to "the things women do are less important than the things men
do".    Quilting is as worthy an art form as photography ... just
different.    I'm sure there are people who would even claim it is
more demanding because it requires more small muscle control, and it
requires more commitment because it takes longer.

If you want to be a friend to your son, help him to appreciate both
the things he is involved in, and the things other people are involved in.
If you teach your son that "women's activities" are unworthy, you are teaching
him that women are less important than men.   If he has that attitude,
he may have trouble forming good relationships with women.

Valuing differences isn't just a company policy.   It's a good idea.

p.s. 
If sewing is unmasculine, what does this say about a male surgeon ?

    RE: .14 I'm impressed. I missed all that hidden agenda. I read the
    comment in .13 and just assumed he'd rather his son not take up
    sedentary pursuits. Phrases like "sit around" and "get off his butt"
    led me to that conclusion. I missed any suggestion that the lack of
    approval for quilting was that it was not a man thing. What did he
    say that tipped you off?

    Given all the macho men I know of that do needle work for fun and the 
    fact that sewing is an important skill for men I never saw it as just
    a women thing. So should I assume per your note that sedentary pursuits
    are women things and active ones are man things?

    			Alfred

>I missed any suggestion that the lack of
>    approval for quilting was that it was not a man thing

 That was my impression too.

I wonder how many Dads can say they're friends with their sons ? 

Does your friendship work both ways, Dwight ?

My father has always called me son - and treated me so - and probably will do 
till the day he dies.

- Paul.

	Dwight, I don't have a problem with macho things. Really! :-) The point
I was trying to make was illistrated in note .14 (very good note!). Another 
point that I was wondering about is that you have done a great job at
encouraging your son to do many different things. But, (we'll use quilting
seeing you brought it up) if he really would want to learn how to quilt, would
you still support him in his effort? Remember, this is something HE wants to
learn. If not, why?



Glen

re  15

Let us consider three activities:
	1. playing a keyboard.
	2. quilting.
	3. watching television.
All three are usually done sitting down.   Expenditure of energy is
probably equivalent for 1 and 2 and lower for 3.  1 and 2 both involve
mental activity and small muscle coordination.   Creativity
is frequently expressed in 1 and 2 but not in 3.   1 and 2 are active,
3 is passive.

Is playing a keyboard (Dwight supports) less sedentary than making
a quilt (Dwight doesn't support).   Making a quilt is more likely to
result in a useful product.

All the kids I have ever known love to watch television for hours.
Surely Dwight has known kids who do also.    It is the obvious example
to use if one wishes to oppose sedentary activity.   I assume there was
a reason for opposing quilting.

Quilting and most other sewing is largely a female activity in this country.
When I buy fabric, I can't remember EVER seeing a man in the store except
to tag along with his wife, often to approve the fabric she will make into
something for him.    When I have taken sewing classes, it has been
rare for men to be registered.    In quilt books and magazines it
is rare for men to have works displayed.

The topic of 13 was:
>If he chose to pick up a talent that wasn't considered to be the mainstream
>macho man stereotype, would you also support him? 
In light of the association of quilting with women, I can only conclude
that
	Dwight supports macho things
	Dwight supports gender neutral things
	Dwight would actively oppose "feminine" things

Other interpretations might be possible, if one knew Dwight better, but this
conclusion jumps out at me.

    RE: .19
    
    Sure doesn't jump out to me. I just took the note at its face value.
    
    Marc H.

    re. 14  ..............teaching his son that female activities are
    unworthy of a male.
    
    
    Where did he say that? INAPPROPRIATE maybe, but unworthy?  I think
    you read that in.
    
    
    Before someone asks, let me explaain why I think some things are more
    appropriate to males than female, and females than males.  
    
    Because males and females are both physically and in some ways
    psychologically DIFFERENT.  Not better or worse, just DIFFERENT.
    I did not say ALL of either sex are ALWAYS different in some particular
    psychological way.....just that there are TRENDS which TEND to be more
    common in one sex than the other.
    
    "Such as?, name one"  Ok, men TEND to be more aggressive.  "how do you
    know that"?  Read the papers and see which gender TENDS to be more
    aggressive.
    
    What is wrong with different, anyway?  So many women in my experience
    tend to HEAR better/worse when a discussion is around the differences
    between the sexes.  I suppose that in many cases the speakers DO mean
    better or worse when they speak of differences.  I mean just plain
    different, with no value implications intended.
    
    Therefore, it in my opinion is appropriate to teach boys skills which
    males TEND to be good at.... not to the exclusion of 'female' skills
    though.
    
    Why can't some of you understand this concept?   I know, its because
    some of you don't believe there there IS any psychological difference.
    If that is your opinion then I can see how you can say that.  But
    I certainly don't agree with it.
    
    Jeff

    Re: 21 ... I do understand your viewpoint on men and women being
    different. The question is though 'who defines what is masculine and
    what is feminine'. I think that's where the problem lies and that's
    where the greatest conflict occurs. If you remember for many years
    women have been told what they can/cannot do and usually what they were
    denied was the opportunity to try/advance in what was perceived as
    men's work. For probably as many years men were denied expressing
    their more sensitive feelings as that was perceived as too feminine.
              So I agree with Bob B. in that you should 'push' your
    child a little. I also agree that you should expose your child
    regardless of gender to all kinds of activities. But I did wonder too
    why Bob would 'push' his son away from quilting if that's what the boy
    was interested in. 
              Masculine and feminine characteristics seem to be a part of
    every human being irregardless of sex,race, religion etc. Perhaps
    the path is to explore the best of these characteristics in oneself so
    a well rounded/developed balanced person will emerge. I would think
    that would be the goal of raising a child...for the child to explore
    all his/her potential irregardless of what is perceived as correct
    for a specific gender.
    
    Paula

    Alfred, I was not referring to .13, I should have explained that.
    Chuckle. No, I did not read all of that in between the lines in .13
    
    Didn't I reference what I was referring to?  Can't remember the
    number but someone was going on about how manly vs womanly persuits
    implied that manly things were superior.  I was replying to that.
    
    No, I have no problem with males doing needle work.  My point was
    (I will repeat it) that typically certain activites (heavy physical
    work for example) can be more appropriately done by men than women.
    Why? Generally men are more muscular than women.  Or, soprano singing
    can (usually) be more appropriatly done by women, (why?) because
    usually women have higher pitched voices than men.
    
    It does not mean it is wrong for males to sing soprano, or men to lift
    heavy loads.  It also does not mean that either sex is superior to the
    other because USUALLY certain activities can be more appropriately done
    by that gender.   What does appropriate mean?  It means 'fits the 
    situation', in the way I intend to use the word.
    
    Jeff