Conference quark::mennotes-v1

	Take the base note and do the gender swap. Anything there can be
	applied either way. JMO! 

 Start another note, if you like.

    In some ways I'm a very good husband.  I cook, I clean house, I pick up
    my laundry, I do the cat box, I feed the fish, I take out the trash,
    and so on...  But I know, even as I'm patting myself on the back, that
    I don't do a fair share of it all.
    
    In some ways I'm not a very good husband ... I'm not sure how it all
    averages out.  But I sincerely believe my wife is not unhappy overall.
    And I try to listen and learn.
    
    -dick

    
    Fascinating topic Doc.
    I don't have alot of time to compose a reply but in general,
    I think I'm a very very good husband. Though our marriage is
    quite traditional and our roles are defined accordingly, we
    both try more than anything to help each other. We are after all,
    in it together and I didn't marry my mother, I didn't marry a maid,
    and I didn't marry a servant. Of course, neither did Lynn.
    
    I often ask Lynn and she gives me honest feedback.
    I think if you asked Lynn what kind of husband I am, she'd agree
    with me.
    
    As for being a dad, the great relationship I have with my two
    boys tells me that I'm doing a lot of things right.
    
    
    						regards
    
    							Hank
    

    True story:  Virtually every woman I've ever been involved with says
    something like "You've ruined me for other men."
    
    Then they leave.
    
    I've never checked with the other men to find out whether it was true
    or not.
    
    Ray

    re .5, what do you *do* to them, Ray?  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

>    re .5, what do you *do* to them, Ray?  :-)
    
    Even though I always hope it's a compliment, I'm always afraid to
    ask...
    
    Ray, potentially America's leading cause of lesbian separatism

    Hey, I bet it's 'cause he tells them the ending.
    
    -b

    
    No, it's because he took them to the apartment he used to share
    with Martin.  They were so appalled by the fake English tudor styling
    that they were afraid to date other guys for fear that they lived
    in a similar housing unit.
    
    Lisa

    re:.1
    
    Not exactly.  Check out some men's magazines (and I don't mean Hustler
    or Penthouse, either) like GQ or Men's Health or Esquire.
    
    For the most part, men don't sit around and spend time complaining
    about their wives in the magazines, and the magazines' articles deal
    more with men, their health, exercise, fashion, etc than why married
    men are unhappy.
    
    The women's magazines have a different focus, as if they're targeted
    to aggrieved women in bad marriages with lazy, abusive husbands.

    Re: .9
    
    The scary part is that fake tudor is in good taste for Nashua.
    
    Martin

    Re .11
    
    No, it's not.  Ubiquity in apartment-complex architecture is not the
    criterion for good taste, it is merely proof that developers have no
    taste.
    
    From the Curmudgeon's Dictionary:
    
    	taste, n.  An indefinable ability to distinguish excellence from
    	mediocrity; hence, my reason for liking fine Scotch whisky and
    	your excuse for swilling expensive rotgut.
    
    	    De gustibus non est disputandum.  (There's no accounting for
    	    some people's tastes.)
    
    				- Ancient Latin proverb
    
    Just to clarify things, the Curmudgeon's translation of the Latin is a
    little skewed; it really says, "There is no disputing tastes."
    
    -dick

    Dick, you're really into creative misreadings today.  Martin wasn't
    claiming Tudor ubiquity.  He was implying that "good" or "bad" taste
    should be judged taking community standards into account.  To call the
    Royal Crest "tasteless" when in Nashua is like calling sushi "gross" or
    criticizing ancient Chinese art for having "no sense of perspective" or
    saying Chaucer "can't spell". 
    
    Ray

    Okay, Ray, you riposte and I'll parry.  Check your sensayuma. 
    Admittedly, I omitted the smiley, but really...  :-)
    
    -dick
    
    Ps.  Besides, almost everyone with whom I've ever discussed the
    architecture of Royal Crest has joined me in a communal barf.  :-)

um, Dick, re that communal barf, well, we are talking about Nashua, right?

DougO

wearing his smarmy warm-weather California hat today ;-)

 All of which is only too relevant to the topic...

    
    re .0
    
    thanks for reminding me of the advantages of single life, doctah.

 Don't mention it. 

.0 is a cheap argument looking for an intellectual response. I love the responses

Try again, this notes file hasn't been too busy of late and I'm experiencing
withdrawal symptoms.

    Having read a few "women's" magazines, I believe they compound the
    misery factor which seems so prevalent out there in marriage land.
    You would think they would occasionally run an "at-home quiz" to ask
    "Why did you have such lousy taste as to marry this no-goodnik you are
    presently married to? Was it a) to get away from home and my parents,
    b)because so many of my friends got married, c)I was getting old (i.e.
    almost 25), d)wanted someone to support me while I stayed home and
    had kids, e)had no ambition to do anything out of the ordinary with my
    life, f)wanted someone to work, work, work to buy me all kinds of
    material goodies, etc. etc." 
    
    Instead it's articles on "how to make HIM do......" "how to change HIM
    so that he......".  The magazines seem to keep missing the most basic
    point and that is to vocalize your problems and if nothing changes and
    you are still miserable then get a divorce. 
    
    I do help with laundry, dishes, setting/clearing the table, grocery
    shopping, vacuuming but rarely do the dusting, silver polishing, 
    ironing, or cleaning the bathroom. I also take my daughter back and
    forth to her dance lessons when it's possible. I am also the prime
    grocery shopper but like most men always buy things that "look good"
    while there. Definitely give in to my compulsions when grocery
    shopping. Men really are lousy at this.  As a father I hope I am doing
    okay. I certainly encourage my daughter in all her endeavors/dreams and
    she has no doubt whatsoever that she is her Dad's special child. My
    wife says I spoil her but, of course, I don't think so. 

>    Instead it's articles on "how to make HIM do......" "how to change HIM
>    so that he......".

 Yes, I definitely see alot about behavioral modification of males. It
seems to focus on the fact that the man, by definition, is doing something 
wrong if the woman finds he doesn't do everything she wants (or thinks she
wants.) I don't see alot of articles explaining how to engage in discourse
with your mate to resolve issues.

 Some of the articles seem to treat men as inferior beings, as if we need to
be treated like little boys. (Well, I'm sure some deserve it, but categorically?)
You'd think the male ego is made of fine lead crystal or something, they way
some articles tell women how important it is to lie to protect men's feelings
and such.

>I am also the prime
>    grocery shopper but like most men always buy things that "look good"
>    while there. Definitely give in to my compulsions when grocery
>    shopping. Men really are lousy at this

 I find it it exactly the opposite in my family. I do very well about not
succumbing to "impulse" purchases, whereas my wife's eye is more easily caught.

    	I'm a teriffic husband and father.
    
    	I have three children, two of which are teenaged daughters who
    don't hesitate a second to ask me anything from sandwichs to sex. Makes
    me feel great that they trust me enough to ask the most delicate
    questions. I've never forced any of my kids to do anything they didn't
    want to do until I made my son play basketball this winter. I wanted
    him to experience it for one season and make up his own mind. I told
    him he would never have to play again. Now I have to build a basketball
    court in my back yard because he wants to be a professional basketball
    player when he's not an artist.
    
    	As to my being a great husband.....I'm an excellent chef. Not a
    cook...a chef. I do anything from meatloaf to suasage and pistacio
    stuffed crown roast to what some people have called the best pasta
    sauce they've ever eaten. (My dreams are to conduct the Boston Pops and
    own a specialty ristorante) I do laundry like most people brush their
    teeth, I wash and wax floors and all of the other stuff. I fold and
    iron clothes like a machine (my kids say I'm neurotic). 
    
    	Sexually, I will not comment..........I'm no stud. I've rarely met
    any woman who's been able to be satisfied by intercourse alone so let's
    just say I've found the secret to satisfaction.
    
    Ken

You do laundry with a toothbrush?

    I find that many women search for men that don't exist and will
    eventually settle for a particular man with the hope of changing
    him into what they were searching for to begin with. Of course what
    happens is that the man behaves as himself and the wife isn't happy and
    therefore goes to outside sources to try and rectify the problem.
    Counseling and couple awareness groups such as Marriage Encounter
    (M.E.)are often tried. 

    I was involved with Marriage Encounter (M.E.) years back and although 
    there many positive things with M.E., what I witnessed often was men 
    behaving the way their wives wanted them to behave. Suddenly they were 
    expressing their inner most feelings in groups like women do, with the 
    idea that this is what men should really do.  On the contrary it is found 
    that it is natural for men to hold in their feelings especially in groups 
    and not necessarily harmful. Those men who didn't go along with the program
    usually were pressured by their wives, with the help of other wives in the 
    group, to share themselves as the other men do. Don't want to be the only 
    wife with a husband who isn't showing others that he's a sensitive man. The
    original idea of M.E. was to help couples communicate and be open with
    each other as a man and woman. It ended up being, in my opinion, that
    men had to express themselves like women in order for the women to get
    any feeling of success in the program. To me really successful
    relationships are those in which the man and woman are comfortable with 
    who they are and with what their spouses are. Both help each other to
    be the best that they are without attempting to transform the other
    into what they would like them to be.


    Jim (happily married for 19.5 years)

Congratulations Jim. To have survived 19.5 years and still be happy with one
another you must be doing something right.

    "To me really successful relationships are those in which the man and
    woman are comfortable with who they are and with what their spouses are. 
    Both help each other to be the best that they are without attempting 
    to transform the other into what they would like them to be."

That sums up the way I feel about my marriage very nicely. We've been married 6
months but we've been living together for 5 years. It's my second marriage but
this time it feels very different and simply great.

We respect each other, Neither one tries to change the other. And we talk. About
everything. Sure we have our ups and downs but we get through the downs together
and enjoy the ups - also together.

Paul.