Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    My perception is that the tension level has dropped way, way down from
    what it used to be only a month or so ago.  We don't have the name
    calling and huffiness that were there before.  We seem to be having
    some substantive debates going on with little ratholing or pit-bulling
    (I should know).  We're even planning a party.  Yay!  So keep up the 
    good work guys.  I'm finding the environment a whole lot more relaxing.  
    
    						- Vick

    re .1
    
    Yes, there has been less petty bickering in the past couple of weeks;
    but there are still two sides - those that say that men have it all,
    and those that say that men have problems too, but because they are
    different than women's they aren't always recognized.
    
    Rich

    There will always be at least two sides.  Things would be pretty dull
    if there weren't.  :^)
    
    						- Vick

    
    re: .0
    
    I've discovered that tension in a notesfile can be greatly reduced by
    having a gathering, which the file is doing soon.  
    
    I think notesfiles are a microcosm of what's going on in our lives
    outside the notesfile.  I doubt the problem can be eliminated (the
    spillover of what we feel into what we say, regardless of the CAUSE of
    what we are feeling), but perhaps when tension runs high we can call it
    out, notice it, and strive to see it when it's mounting and ask people
    to think twice when noting, or encourage a gathering be held.
    
    Meeting face-to-face tends to defuse lots of awkward tension, it has
    seemed to me.
    
    -Jody

    I too think there is less tension now that in the past month or two. I 
see it in a variety of files and around me in work. The tension has been 
thick enough to cut with a knife. Our group was facing an upcoming TFSO 
week, and we knew it for about 2 months.....needless to say, everyone was 
tight enough to play like a violin for some time. Now that the week has 
passed and only a few are gone, the tension is down, although not entirely. 
There is a grief process to go thru for the now departed, but things may 
start looking up soon.

    Vic

    
    "Most people listen, NOT with the intent to understand,
     but with the intent to reply".  
     
             Stephen Covey
    
     I believe there is too much emphasis placed on electronic
     communication and as such the Art of conversation is heading
     towards extinction.

In the eleven and a half years I've been "noting" at DEC, I've seen tension
levels rise and fall in many different confernces.  The work environment
often has a lot to do with it - as was mentioned earlier, when many people
are in fear for their jobs, they tend to be a lot more jumpy.

Anyway, I too have seen a more calmer demeanor in recent weeks, and I like
it.

					Steve

    I've noticed that the tension level rises markedly every time 
    someone dares to state that feminism isn't the be-all and end-all
    solution to *everybodie's* problem.
    
    fred();

    Yes, Brian I see the difference
    
    Now, if the people who note in such a fashion are able to see
    themselves in that light, prehaps a partial solution is at hand.
    
    I think your example would have been more relevant to those noters
    if you had chosen an alternate example.

    I get the impression that you're disappointed the tension level isn't
    higher...
    
    Ray

    	I see the tensions begin to rise when a notes is started about a
    specific topic. For a few replies the topic is fine. Then we have to be
    reminded of a Feminist/Women's rights agenda that someone feels
    paralells the topic. Then we have another reply that becomes anti-the
    Fem/WR agenda note. Then tension becomes an angry cascade of implied
    this and that and you said, I say blah blah and to make matters worse,
    one them starts using a Roget's so the other one does too. The orginal
    intent of the topic gets blurred, Steve has to come in and tell
    everyone for 800th time that there are no FMO notes and the reson for
    it, and everyone finally gets a break.........the weekend.
    
    	Tension runs high when things are tense in the business. People
    tend to get riled easily and their space feels vulnerable. These are
    difficult times and most recognize they are, problem is, we don't see
    ourselves getting wrapped up and using others as our means of venting
    this tension that has become anger.....not enough to say chill out. It
    will be necessary for more of us to be moderator like and recognize
    when something appears to be headed for a rathole and try to help ease
    everyone back to the path.
    
    Ken

    my translation of .9...
    
    If _YOU_ make 'sensible' statements about feminism there will be no
    tension rise
    
    on the other hand 
    If YOU make 'intemperate' statements about feminism 'we' are going to
    boot your ass.
    
    'WE' -of course- never make intemperate statements.
    
    
    				herb

    Easy Herb.....temperature's beginning to rise.
    
    8^) Ken

    nope, no rise. Just an observation of how opportunities for a temp rise
    are easy to find.

    my translation of .9...
    
    If _YOU_ make 'sensible' statements about feminism there will be no
    tension rise
    
    on the other hand 
    If YOU make 'intemperate' statements about feminism 'we' are going to
    boot your ass.
    
    and by implication _only_, (because there _is_ no assertion about
    intemperate pro-feminist statements)
    
    'WE' -of course- never make intemperate statements.
    
    
    				herb
    p.s. I said it was my translation. I did not say that is what the
    author intended.
    
    				h

    your sarcasm makes it very difficult for me to respond temperately

    >The Tension Level is Rising...
    
    ... but mostly in this note.  :^)  - Vick

    Possible causes of the current tension include:
    o	company downsizing (already noted)
    o	back to work blues after the holidays
    o	financial concerns as the holiday credit card bills roll in
    o	aftermath of spending too much time with family
    o	breakup of relationships (many break up around the holidays)
    
    I'm not saying that everyone suffers from all of these - I only score
    2/5, for example - but I'm sure that each one of them is affected
    members of this conference.
    
    	Andrew.

    OK, let's go back to Brian's reply and try to translate it to other
    groups, since I agree it takes two to tango.  Play on, Lurch!

>     	  "Feminism is not the be-all and end-all solution to everybody's
>     problem.  Feminism is sometimes inapplicable, and sometimes too ready
>     to use a broad brush."
    vs.
>	  "Feminists are hatemongers."

    I see two ways of restating this left-hand-kneejerk from the
    right-hand-kneejerk's point of view.  First, a more literal inverse:

    "Sexism is not the be-all and end-all solution to everybody's problems. 
    Sexism is sometimes inapplicable, and sometimes too ready to use a
    broad brush."

    	vs.

    "Sexists are hatemongers."

    Hmm, not too much help there.  But this next paraphrase has a familiar
    ring to it -- a het white male par excellence, I remember being accused
    of saying the second when I thought I was saying the first.

    "Het white males are not the be-all and end-all solution to everybody's
    problems.  Het white males are sometimes wrong, and sometimes too ready
    to use a broad brush."

    	vs.

    "Het white males are worthless villains."

    I think both sides of the great MENNOTES battles tend to jump to the
    extreme (and indefensible) versions of the reasonable statements partly
    out of paranoia and partly out of (sometimes perversely) wanting a good
    tussle.
    
    Ray

.11>         <<< Note 745.11 by ESGWST::RDAVIS "Joe Frank, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>
.11>                    -< So start a fight if you want one... >-
.11>
.11>    I get the impression that you're disappointed the tension level isn't
.11>    higher...
    
    It's comments like that that stir the pot, Ray.

    Please avoid such comments when referencing me in the future.

.17>    my translation of .9...
.17>    
.17>    If _YOU_ make 'sensible' statements about feminism there will be no
.17>    tension rise

    That's the same thing I saw in it, Herb.

    Sounded like yet another snide little dig.

    But I could be wrong, and that's why I carefully phrased my reply
    to be unpresumptuous.

    My take on .9 et seq. runs something like this:
    
    >	  "Feminism is not the be-all and end-all solution to everybody's
    > problem.  Feminism is sometimes inapplicable, and sometimes too ready
    > to use a broad brush."
    
    That's a sensible statement in the mind of a listener who already
    accepts it as truth.  I suppose someone who disagrees with it might
    label it as an "intemperate" statement, but those who agree with the
    position won't agree with the label.  There will likely occur a
    temperature rise in the minds of this latter group, and they may well
    choose to enter a reply that the labeler could consider as intemperate.
    
    >	  "feminists are hatemongers."
    
    That's a sensible statement in the mind of a listener who already
    accepts it as truth.  I suppose someone who disagrees with it might
    label it as an "intemperate" statement, but those who agree with the
    position won't agree with the label.  There will likely occur a
    temperature rise in the minds of this latter group, and they may well
    choose to enter a reply that the labeler could consider as intemperate.
    
    Er, umm, am I beginning to sense a recursion in this logic?
    
    People who want to raise the temperature, or who don't care about
    keeping it down, will ineluctably say things that will indeed effect a
    rise.  That's why we have moderators.
    
    -dick

    Personally I think feminists are snide, nasty little creatures that
    should crawl back under the rock from whence the came.


    			Wayne

    Have a nice day.
    
    Ray

Yeah, Wayne, sometimes, we can tell you feel that way.  I think I addressed
this earlier, lessee, what did I say:

(yeesh, it was hard to find.  this is from 716.141, nearly a month ago:)

>                         ...the backlash against feminism right here in this
> file; a couple of the folks here can't *stand* to see a woman express anger,
> they'll shout her down.  Or try to. Those guys are just products of this
> culture, I don't blame them for not knowing how to hear women's anger.  I
> know how hard it is, I know how much work it takes to listen instead of the
> instinctive striking out, when someone seems to be mad at your gender for the
> things you never did.  Or never meant to do to hurt someone, but only because
> you've always done it that way.  Like laughing at some misogynistic bozo like
> ADC.  What can I say?  This culture teaches us all that laughing at women is
> fun and funny!  You can do it with a bunch of other guys and feel great!  So
> all I'm saying is, this culture lies to us men.  Laughing with ADC at women
> doesn't feel great, it feels rotten, it feels like trampling on the pride and
> hope of the best woman friend you ever had.  No wonder men are confused; and
> its also no wonder they hate feminists.  Feminists rock the boat; feminists
> suggest that the ways we've always done things hurt people, and should be
> stopped by people waking up and realizing it and refusing to patronize that
> kind of humor, and refuse to elect that kind of Senator who would bully Anita
> Hill for daring to tell her story, and refuse to accept the kinds of things
> that women get legitimately angry about after facing them for every day of
> their lives.  Feminists make people uncomfortable.  Oh, well.

I didn't want to have to reinvent that; having figured it out once was hard
enough.  The point is, I don't blame you, Wayne, for wishing feminists would
just "crawl back under the rock."  I don't take it personally.  I really wish
you wouldn't take the things I say, personally, either.  But if you do, hey,
I can't do much about it.  Have a nice day.

DougO

re: .26
>    Personally I think feminists are snide, nasty little creatures that
>    should crawl back under the rock from whence the came.
    
    
    *snif* - but it's so much *nicer* out here in the daylight. ;)
    
    *gently*
    
    -Jody

    I like the daylight too, Jody, it is dark and icky under rocks..
    
    Bon

    ...and it took so long to move the rocks in the first place.
    
    Can't let all that effort go to waste.
    
    

    Rocks and Rolls? :) Gee, gonna have to find some big rocks Jody and
    Bonnie.:) I don't think the garden type will do the trick.:)

    thjank you so much for sharing your feelings with us Wayne
    
    HTDYD
    
    Meg

    	I certainly hope to see both sides of the fence at the Men's
    Workshop in March at MRO......Watch for details to be announced in this
    file and others...
    
    Ken...the facilitator...8^)
    

    Re: .26
    
    Thank you, Wayne, that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today.
    
    -dick

As Fred mentioned in .8, when ever someone dares to state something about
feminists, all hell breaks loose. Like, I am all for equality and all the like,
but in reality, men are men, woman are women. If we ever loose that difference,
god help us. Sometimes I wonder .... where all this stuff is leading too.

John

    Since this topic has become derailed onto feminism and equality and
    all, I'll quote what I consider the best commentary on equality ever
    made, written by Frank Herbert in _The Dosadi Experiment_:
    
    	All sentient beings are created unequal.  The best society provides
    	each with an equal opportunity to float at his own level.
    
    Face it, folx, equality isn't.
    
    -dick

    Equality is a slow freight train coming.  You don't have to jump
    on board.  But I wouldn't do my philosophizing on the tracks.
    
    				- Vick  :^)
    
    P.S.  "Equality" is as abused a term as "right".  But I think those
    who are about to take their equality out of your hide have a good idea
    what they mean by it.  Blacks didn't buy "separate but equal" anymore
    than women are going to buy "equality isn't".

    I've been busy and did not have a chance to read this string since my
    last entry. 
    
    	I have to say the responses to my reply were very mellow indeed. To
    further clarify why I said what I said let me show you where I put
    the national feminist movement in relation to other radical groups.
    
    				|
    			        |    In the middle, stepping on anyone who
    			  _____\|/_____
    			       /|\   gets in their way. To me, their politics
    				|    differ little from other radical groups
    				|    in search of a scapegoat.
    
    	HAND
    	Wayne

    And I'm so sorry that your little incendiary appeared in our
    			  ^^^^
    conference. It probably _did_ have the effect you wanted. It must be
    very exhilarating. It's a shame that you didn't have the grace to
    overlook Wayne's incendiary. It must be very depressing to be so
    trigger happy. Kinder thoughts next time.
    
    
    				herb

    us is us
    you, me, wayne, steve, vic,  ...
    
    god! you are behaving like a little boy

    Brian,

    		It's men like you that makes life so great. You see, I'm
    not confused, I don't have to identify with women. I know who and what
    I am. When you get over your snippiness come on around and we'll talk
    like men.


    			Wayne