Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    ouch!
    
    Good luck!
    
    My father is 85 and still enjoys an active sex life some 15 or so years
    after his prostate operation.
    
    				herb

    There are several types of prostate operations, would you please
    elaborate on yours?
    
    Regards,
    
    Jorge

    90%of all men will encounter some sort of prostate problem in their 
    latter years so now is the time to do some thing that will help to
    avoid it and that is just what I have been doing for the last two 
    years and the substance is not harmfull so I decided to try it and so
    far it is doing what it is supposed to.People say why bother? Well I 
    tell them I have a cousin that takes shots at 400.00 a month for his 
    and he still is very uncomfortable with the problem,so I will try the 
    other way and do it as a preventive measure which makes more sense to
    me. just my opinion on the subject.  Don Allen

    What is it you do, if you don't mind our asking?  - Vick
    

    Re -2
    
    Also I think your 90% figure is inflated.
    Do tell us about symptoms, though.

I think the 90% figure is close to accurate; the old saw is that if you
survive everything else, prostate trouble will getcha.  Just one of those
parts of the body that wears out.

DougO

    My doctor says that though almost every man who lives long enough will
    get prostrate cancer, almost no one ever DIES of prostrate cancer because
    it it soooooo slooooowwww that you die of something else first.  All I
    know is what he told me.
    					- Vick

    re .-2
    
    	Interesting though that if you live long enough you _will_ get
    prostate trouble... true.  I would also submit that if nothing else 
    gets you, you will eventually die of an infection cause by in ingrown 
    toenail on your left foot (little toe!).

    I could argue prostate cancer being the benign slow growing thing that
    everyone thinks it is.  It was prostate cancer that got my grandfather
    (ok so he was 95) two years ago, and was the final cancer that killed
    my father in June.  This in spite of the fact that he was taking lupron
    injections to slow his testosterone production, had been "pared out
    three times in the last two years, and had his blood work and bonescans
    done regularly.  His bloodwork was near-normal two weeks before his kidneys
    shut down from the tumor.  
    
    It is, in theory, slow growing as long as it doesn't metastisize(sp),
    but if it does, it is a bone and lung seeking cancer, and also will
    attack the intestines, in a way simalar to ovarian cancer in women.
    
    If you are male and over 40 you are at risk, and should definitely keep
    your yearly appoinments and include a prostate check.  It might pay to
    ask the doctor about using bloodwork for checking for the cancer-marker
    if you have a family history of prostate cancer.
    
    It is true that prostates tend to enlarge as men get older.  This isn't
    necessarily a problem for most men, but it can enlarge enough to cause
    a blockage of the urinary tract.  There are surgeries and other
    remedies for this if needed.
    
    Meg
    Meg  
    
    

Don Allen is a well-known participant in the Medical conference, wherein he
sings the praises of bee proplis and suchlike as cures for all manner of ills.

    RE: 10, plus the blood test (PSA) is supposed to be twice as accurate
    as detecting early prostate cancer as a digital examination. Only
    problem so far is the cost.
    
    Eric

    A Book Called Bee Pollen and your health written by Carlton Wade
    number 78-19928 catalog in Congress. If you were to go to the local 
    book store you may pick it up and you too can get the correct informat-
    ion out of it.I was quoting from it when I wrote my note,so if you have
    a problem with it than by all means write to the person who wrote the 
    book.Prostate is a serious problem with older men and people due die
    from it,so I have heard so it isn't something to take too litely in 
    one's health.Cost of the book is just $2.25 cents not bad for the 
    correct information,also many doctors have put their opinions in the 
    book so I do give it merit.You can either read it or not but I like 
    to get information right from the source if possible. Don Allen

    M.Z. if it wasn't so funny I'de reply to you note but you make me 
    laugh snake oil and propolis being the same thing when you don't know 
    the difference between a bee and a snake that is funny.NO miracle cure
    who ever gave you that idea anyway?Maybe if you read more you might 
    be able to know the difference.  Have a good day. D.A.

 How 'bout an english translation?

    Just for you mike Snake oil is still being used in some countries as to 
    help heaL .You will notice I did say HELP Heal  NOT  CURE.
    Bee Propolis encapsulates a germ and helps carry it out of the body
    from the inside. In other counteries it has been used to treat CANCER
    now I do thing the two are different,as far as what they are used for.
    You will have to go back into history in order to find the first use
    of Propolis.You will be amazed at the uses when you too read about 
    them as I did.Also has been used to rebuild bone Matrix if you know
    what that is. D. A.

    Any disease that goes into spontaneous remission can be treated
    haphazardly with some success.
    
    Go back in history?  They used to take blood to drain away the
    evil spirits, historically speaking.  I think modern medicine
    is better, but that's just my opinion.

    For those of you who are unused to Don Allen's techniques permit me to
    explain. 

    He buys his produce in bulk, then makes wild and fantastic claims in
    many conferences on the net for it, selling it retail. 

    He has no faith in modern medicine. He emphatically believes that no
    "natural" substance can have any side effects. He regularly gives
    advice which, if followed, would make the condition worse. In some
    cases his advice would quickly kill the victim. As an example, he once
    suggested that all forms of diabetes could be controlled by diet alone
    and insulin was unnecessary. This would of course kill most infant
    onset diabetics His advice to a heart transplant patient would have
    killed within hours.

    I would advise you most seriously to ignore him and the rubbish he
    hawks round the net. He just plays on the fear and lack of knowledge of
    the general public.

    Jamie.

  	Thank you Jamie.



	kits

    Jamie, your position regarding Don A's claims IMO is just as biased
    as Don's except its in the OPPOSITE extreme!  Don't you believe that
    ANYTHING which does not have an MD's kiss of authorization on it is
    ok?  Don't you think that natural healing IN CONJUNCTION WITH
    appropriate professional help is helpful?  As in most things in life
    BALANCE is a key.
    
    In fact Sundays Lawrence Eagle Tribute actually had a article which
    admitted (can you image that) that foods play a role in helping or
    hurting ones health?!
    
    Don claims that the foods he recommends tend to help ones health.
    Using some common sense (paying attention to allergies for example)
    should tell one that natural healing has its place in conjunction
    with professional help.  
    
    Why don't YOU back up some of your claims with references?  Do you
    READ the way Don does?  Don is not always right... but in general
    his advice is worth consideration, it should not be dismissed out
    of hand the way you recommend.
    
    Jeff

    Jamie,This is just for you. Read the book "CHELATION CAN CURE"
    then tell every one that I don't know what I'm talking about. But
    until you do I would strongly suggest that you check you infromation 
    cxarefully first. Because if people call this number they can get it 
    first hand from a doctor who has been doing this for 27 years,now where
    have you been? That you didn't know that they have performed over
    a million non intrusive proceedures and not one side effect after a
    safe protocol was established by the FDA all guidelines have been
    followed. Call this number and you can get the correct information
    if you care to check with the doctor who wrote the book.Dr McDonagh
    phone number  816-453-5940 I would feel it was up to me to check
    it out not to let someone else make up my mind for me. By the way 
    Juvenile Diabetes can and has been reversed so ask someone who 
    is in the know. That is if you realy want the truth about it,and
    not heresay from someone else.Doctors take people off of their insulin
    and reverse it. How many people have you heard say the doctor told me
    I'm getting better and don't need so much insulin. You seem to think 
    just because you haven't heard of it it can't be. Well you better start
    to read more than you do,because the more I read the more I learn and
    when you stop learning that is when you stagnate mentaly.
    

    "I really feel sorry for the people who buy into your theories".  Are
    you referring to anybody who persues natural healing as an aid to
    traditional medical help?  If so your way behind the times.  Even many
    doctors are recommending some natural therapies.  In fact the medical
    profession is gradually coming around to the realization that
    appropriate foods, herbs, and certain natural healing methods not only
    have merit but many times work.  Not always work.... what DOES always
    work, even doctors therapies don't work at times.  How did the indians
    survive?  Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was some wisdom
    to some of their natural remedies?  Where do you think many of the
    modern miracle drugs COME from?   Many come from herbs and plants. 
    Some doctors are concerned at the destruction of the rain forests
    because many natural plant sources would be destroyed.  How can I
    SAY the above things? ....... simple, I read the papers, various
    magazines, books and various other periodicals.  You (noters in 
    this string) SEEM to be taking the position that any person who
    attempts to heal themselves via natural methods with or without the
    aid of a doctor is just plain misguided and the poor unfortuate soul
    is doomed to an early death, or, at best poor health.  Is my perception
    correct?  
    
    Jamie:  You havn't answered my questions.  Is that because you can't 
    think of answers?   You SEEM to take the position that the only 
    way one can maintain ones' health is solely via a medical doctor and
    that the general population is too ignorant to have a chance of
    figuring out how their body works beyond the level of second grade.
    Are my perceptions of you position accurate?  I would be glad to 
    discuss the pros and cons of BOTH positions.
    
    I have had a long standing prostate condition BPH (benign prostate
    hyperplathy) which has been checked by several MD's.  None could do
    anything except 'drill me out', which hasn't been done because its
    not so advanced that its become necessary.  However, I did have 
    frequent urination and discomfort.  I had tried 'everything' that
    I could think of to cure it... DOCTORS, vitamin C, zinc, you name it.
    NOTHING made any difference.  About a year ago I met Don.  He
    recommended several natural foods.  I figured as long as what he
    suggested wasn't harmful all I had to loose was some money if they
    didn't work.  Hell, nothing else worked, why not try out what Don 
    suggested?  It took a while.... many months, but after a full year 
    now I am not getting up at night anymore, and I would say my symptoms
    have been reduced 70 to 80 percent of what they were.  "How do I know
    his stuff worked?"  I don't.  How could one be sure without a double
    blind study?  It is, however a remarkable coincidence that after years
    of steadily increasing BPH symptoms that when I started eating the
    things he suggested that the symptoms should ease off so much.  I
    can't say that the doctors had that much success with me.
    
    Don may not know how to put a sentence together in notes (and that
    damages his image and credibility), however he has made a
    study of natural healing methods, and based on my experence and others
    I know he has met with some success in improving others health.
    
    He is not out for the buck with no regard for others health or
    feelings.  Your perception of that Jamie is just plain wrong.  Yes
    he wants to make money (outside of DEC) but that is not his primary
    motive. 
    
    I think Dons healing methods rub a sore spot (so to speak) in you
    Jamie, and that your arguments against him are largely emotional
    rather than rational.
    
    Please, an answer which addresses the issues I bring up Jamie.
    
    Jeff

    I don't sell the stuff, I use some of it.  I am not such a fool as to
    replace natural healing for professional medical help if dealing with
    a serious condition, unless I have already gone the route with the
    MD's.
    
    Yes, some of his claims do strain credibility, but that DOESN'T mean
    that ALL of his claims are wrong.  I get a bit incensed when I see
    people in this string grind his credibility into the ground when I have
    SEEN some of his products WORK.  Jamie does not seem willing to 
    listen or consider that any position other than his own might could
    have merit, closed ears.  THAT attitude makes me wonder where HE got
    his monopoly on being right.
    
    Of course there is a profit in selling things.  Why else would one sell
    things?  Do doctors' make a profit on others ill health?  I don't think
    I need to answer that.  How can one run a business and survive at the
    business without making a profit?  How does making a profit make
    selling health foods wrong, or make one into a charlatain?
    
    Jeff

    Very recently a friend of mine died from an incurable disease. He was
    conned out of a lot of money by people with cures that the Medical
    profession wouldn't listen to. Without exception they did nothing.

    Seeing our network being used to vend such stuff gets my back up.

    Don, I do read. I can provide you with proof, in the form of a medical
    paper, that at least one death has been contributed to your chelation
    therapy. Despite your claims that it is very safe it is not. Should the
    drug be administered slightly too fast it is fatal.

    The difference between your reading and mine is the types of books we
    read, I prefer fact to fantasy when it comes to the matter of medicine.
    
    Jamie.

    What, this guy who is promoting these 'alternate therapies' has a
    financial interest in doing so?  Are there rules against allowing that
    sort of advertising on DEC's systems?
    
    Mike

Re: .28

Yes, there are.  I haven't seen any obvious violation of that policy,
however.  If I've missed something, feel free to send me mail.

			Steve

    Well, I'm not certain if I've noticed any blatant violtion, either.
    My remark was sort of like Perry Mason reminding a witness that they
    are under oath.  However, perhaps I took a bit much on myself.
    
    Mike

    Don went out under SERP last week so any speculation is now moot.
    

    I'm Back! Jamie Just to clear up a point or two. There are acids
    presant in Royal jelly and honey that have started the pancres to 
    produce insulin again. If you are so intrested in finding out read a 
    medical monograf written by Dr. Javis in 1963 or so it tells all about
    the process that will enlighten your mind how the acids in honey have
    been used to start up the pancres again.I'm not saying everyone but
    just think if you are able to reverse diabetes by the use of this 
    what have the medical people been waiting for to let the public know
    about this and other things that will HELP them?If you can reduce the 
    insulin WITH the doctor's help than why not do it. Is it so impossible
    that you have problems with that concept? Or is it that you don't want
    to accept the idea as something to try.Hevens knows I don't know every
    thing but at least I look at it and read as mch as I can before I make
    a call on any thing.I thought the doctors were there to help people
    stay well not to try to treat them when they are in a cronic health
    situation and have no other choise by to have an operation.
    People's Health was the upper most thing on my mind nothing else 
    mattered because a sick population is not a productive population no
    matter who or where they are working. So Stay healthy and happy
    for only you can make the difference in your life no one else can if you
    don't want them too.  Don Allen

Don, I heard rumors that you SERPed.  Were they wrong?

       re .33:
       
       Bee proplis is now shown to be a proven cure for SERP.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Don is SERPED.  It is not a rumor.

    Then why does he still have access to the network?

    Not necessarily. Some SERPites are continuing on as consultants for a
    short time to ease the transition (depending on their positions). This
    makes sense in view of the fixed "last day" associated with the SERP
    program, which didn't allow for very flexible transitions. I know
    one manager for whom this is the case.

    I have no knowledge about whether this is the case with Don or not.

    I have a feeling in my water that if any substance in the world was
    discovered that could reactivate the Islets of Langerhans into
    producing insulin it would be shouted from the roof tops. 

    Don's perpetual conspiracy theory is rather simplistic and is becoming
    rather boring.

    Fact. Infant onset diabetes is the result of an over active immune
    system which attacks and destroys the Islets of Langerhans. Once
    destroyed they are gone for good.

    One day I will take the time out to go through all the notefiles and
    pick up all the claims that Don has made over the years for his royal
    jelly and other wonder drugs then I'll list them all in one note so
    everyone can see just how ludicrous they are.

    Don, if you are still out there, before I believe one word of it I will
    need the following.

    Proof from a reputable medical research institute that experiments have
    been done which show this to be the case, plus the same experiments
    done at another disinterested institute of the same standing.

    Unsubstantiated claims are not worth a bucket of warm spit. Anyone can
    make claims. I want proof.

    Jamie.

    I think Don is 'off the air' now.  I don't know the details of access
    to the net by SERPERS.  Anyway, Jamie.  I think we are having a dispute
    over absolute scientific PROOF as a double blind study correctly
    designed and implimented would create vs. home remedy, non proven
    health benefits some seem to obtain.
    
    You stick completely from what I can see to the PROOF end of the
    scale.  Fine, thats your call.  I take more of a middle ground.  Not
    that I believe every claim, I don't.  But simply because someone can't
    hand me a document written up in a current medical journal I don't
    simply dismiss the claim out of hand.  I think about it, and, if 
    harmless, and appropriate to my needs I may try it.  I have gotten
    positive results from SOME of Don's products.  Placibo effect?  
    Scientifically proven I can document?  No.  But I feel better and
    THAT represents the results I am after.  
    
    How many doctors have been made FOOLS OF when they have dismissed
    a remedy out of hand and later others PROVE the claim after all
    was right? 
    
    My 'axe to grind' with you is that you seem to have a closed mind
    against the possibilty that something not scientifically proven may
    have merit.  One can never grow or learn unless one remains OPEN to
    considering new things.  I dare say you are doomed to the tried and
    proven with no room for growth (until something is proven by others)
    for the rest of your life unless you open your mind a bit.  
    
    This entry about ends my contribution to this string.  People do not
    seem willing to even DISCUSS alternatives (which is what I thought
    this string was about anyway).  The intent seems to be to discredit
    anything which is not medically authenticated in some journal.
    
    Closed minds.
    
    End of subject with me.
    
    Jeff

    So, you think quackery is fine?  
    
    PT Barnum would have loved you.
    
    Mike

    I can't resist.  What is quackery?  IMO its knowingly making false
    health claims to sell health products or services.  I havn't seen that
    happening in this string.  It sounds as if you have?
    
    You know, as well as I do that saying something doesn't make it true or
    false.  Something either is true or false.  Just as Dons' claims aren't
    true just because he says they are your claims saying that his claims
    are not true is not correct just because you say so either, right?
    
    This string is supposed to be about the prostate.  Are you people
    interested in a debate about prostate health issues?  Are you
    interested in hearing from someone (me) who has had prostate problems
    for years and has improved his condition via. natural methods?
    Or, are you reading and writing to this string to automatically shoot
    anyone who suggests anything other than a traditional medical approach?
    Because that is the way your coming across.  Perhaps this string should
    be re-labeled "Traditional medical approaches to prostate problems"?
    
    Jeff

    Make that shoot down, not just shoot.  Hmmm, Freudian slip here?

    If you had talked about your personal experiences wrt treatment
    of _your_ condition, I wonder whether people might have AT LEAST been
    more respectful if not also accepting.?
    If in addition, you had stated that 'conventional doctors' had urged
    surgery and have been -what-  non-plussed by the 'remission',then our
    ears would have REALLY stood on end!
    Sagas like Steve McQueen's desperate search for a cancer cure (even
    including apricot pits), stay in our minds for a long time.
    
    
    				herb

    It is precisely things like the short-lived (but not short enough)
    Laetrile fad that claimed who knows how many lives, that I had in mind
    when I spoke of quackery. 
    
    Incidentally, it is not necessary for a salesman to necessarily know
    his nostrums are useless for him to be practicing quakery.
    
    Mike

    .44  The string got off on a tangent a bit back Herb.  I DID relate
    my experience early on when I came into the string.  The doctors
    have not been non plussed at 'my remission' because I have not been
    back to them.... havn't needed to go back.  "Remission" I think thats
    not quite the correct description because we are not dealing with
    cancer here.  Reduction of symptom/condition is more accurate.  Not
    cured mind you, but definite improvement in my BPH.  That is more than
    the dr's were able to offer without surgical techniques.  "Drill out"
    which wasn't necessary is what they eventually would have done.  It
    may still come to that, but I hope the 'foods' will eliminate or delay
    the need for that.  If the past year is any indication it will be quite
    a while before I need an operation for this.  How has it improved me?
    I think the answer is simple,  improved nutrition has improved my
    prostates health... simple as that.
    
    Jeff

.42>    I can't resist.  What is quackery?  IMO its knowingly making false
.42>    health claims to sell health products or services.
    
    A person can be prosecuted even for _unknowingly_ making false
    health claims about a product.
    
    Dozens of [name deleted] distributers were fined in the early 80s
    for telling customers that one of their concoctions provided immunity
    from AIDS.
    
    Some tried the "I didn't know" defense.  It didn't work.

    re:.45, Laetrile
    
    Doctors in Mexico continued to get thousands of dollars for the
    1-week treatment programs that had already been judged unsafe and
    uneffective in every single previous study where a conclusion was
    reached.
    
    Homeopathy is another form of quackery.

    re.47
    Judges just love the ignorance of the law defense! I once saw a guy
    try to pull this the judge gave him a nice speach just before giving
    him jail time for a traffic offense allowing him time to contemplate
    his ignorance of the law.
    
    -j
    

    "Homeopathy is another form of quackery".  How can you say that,
    flatly like that?  Your saying that ALL forms and remedies associated
    under the name Homeopathy is quackery!? i.e. I read natural remedies
    are quackery? right? is that what your saying?  I must come across
    in this string as if I would buy or try virtually anything regardless
    of the claim or source of the information.  I say that because I find
    myself repeatedly in the position of taking the OPPOSITE exteme
    position from "The ONLY safe/sane health care come from MD's.  Rarely
    are extreme positions in any direction always true.  I am not an
    extremist, unless one considers persuing
    
    People run to a Dr. for every little thing, and SEEM to take little
    responsibility for their own health care and use some common sense
    regarding appropriate times to go to an MD.  I know, 'the average
    person is not qualified to make that decision'.  Well, unfortunately
    your probably right... the average person isn't.  Some of us do enough
    thinking and reading to be qualified to make the distinction of when
    home health remedies vs. an MD's visit is appropriate. Not that that
    judgement is flawless, but whos' is?
    
    Can some of you in this string come back with SOMETHING other than
    another example of how many quacks are out there, and how stupid the
    general population is?  How about something regarding someones' 
    prostate experiences/successes regarding either MD care or 'home
    remedies'?  Are Don and I the ONLY ones WITH successes with
    'homeopathic' health care or are others afraid to say anything
    positive about it?  I can't believe that all of the people in
    this string have had only negative experiences with natural remedies.
    
    
      I would like to see a BALANCED discussion  regarding both
    professional medical prostate care, and natural remedies for prostate
    care/health.
    
    

    Make that uncompleted sentence ..... unless one considers persuing
    a balanced approach to health care, medical AND natural extreme.

.50>    "Homeopathy is another form of quackery".  How can you say that,
    
    Ok, show me otherwise.
    
    Show me one study, any study, that concludes one of the basic tenets
    of homeopathy, that potency increases as dosage decreases, even beyond
    the point where any molecules of the "remedy" are likely to be present
    in the preparation, is true.
    
    The closest anyone has come was 4 or 5 years ago when a study was
    published in Nature.  The science community and Nature both refuted
    the study after scrutinizing the procedures, which were NOT double
    blind and which wer subjective enough (the researchers estimated
    shades of reddishness) to result in distorted data and findings.
    
    Homeopathy is pseduo-science.
    
    
.50>      I would like to see a BALANCED discussion  regarding both
    
    Ok, you present the anti-Western-medicine, pro-homeopathy, pro-bee-
    pollen, pro-naval-jelly, pro-what-have-you side and I'll present the
    related findings of the scientific community.

    I never said homeopathy represented science in the sense that double
    blind studies back up most claims.  Homeopathy tends to be a witness
    style operation.  i.e. people present their opinions, yes opinions of
    what this or that has done for them.  That is not proof, I agree.
    
    I can't off the top of my head cite studies by author/publisher
    and year published.  Could look some references up though.  Double
    blind studies, not sure how many I can cite via references.  I guess
    homeopathy can be sort of like believing in God.  No double blind
    study ever proved the existance of God that I know of.  With homeopathy
    we get into 'mind cures' (where ones own mind heals the body), the
    use of natural substances to improve health etc.  If you want cast iron
    proof for every statement I make then I can't do it.  Never said I
    could.  What I have been saying is lets look at this natural method.
    Has it worked for anyone in the string?  
    
    If you call any health claim which hasn't been backed by a double blind
    study quackery then under YOUR definition its quackery all right.
    I disagree with the definition of quackery however.  To me quackery
    is snake oil stuff.  Methods or substances whos design is to take
    the money from ignorant people with no possible health benefits to
    them.  In other words, FRAUD with design.  
    
    

    Do you think that the people who make money on homeopathy, and who
    peddle bee stuff aren't making money on this?  Do you think that they
    are unaware that any of this stuff has no basis in science?  
    
    Since they can't prove it works, all they can do is try to make people
    believe in it.  They do this by making statements as of efficacy, and hope
    that the unsuspecting public will believe them.
    
    Sounds like quackery to me.
    
    Mike

    FWIW- I used to sell Honey to the local allergy specialists who
    prescribed it to his patients with allergys to pollens from native
    flowers. The doctor seemed to think that this helped to reduce the
    reaction to pollens by some but not all of the patients.
    As a former bee keeper I can attest to one of "royal jelly" it is
    what makes the difference between a queen bee and a simple worker
    bee but thats about it. Pollen is useful if you happen to have a bunch
    of hungry bees around but thats about it unless you want to toot a
    snootful and call in sick due to allergys.
    
    BTW- did you know that rubbing your bald scalp with a mixture of raw
    eggs and olive oil will draw flys? 8^)
    
    -j
    

    re:.53
    
    When you do find one study, let me know.
    
    Until then, you need to recognize the healing power of the human body
    (which is precisely the reason why placebos can work so effectively
    aganist some illnesses), and spontaneous remission, and separate those
    two phenomena from coincidental treatment with unproven therapies.

    <need to recognize the healing power of the human body>
    
    I would like to broaden that just a tad by replacing "body" with
    "being".
    My frame of reference is that the psyche/mind/<whatever> can be
    involved as well in "spontaneous remissions". As an example, it seems
    reasonable to conclude that it is (at least first) the "mind" rather
    than the "body" that 'processes' or 'recognizes' the placebo as a
    curative/palliative agent.
    
    
    					herb

Um, folks - I think a general discussion of medical methodologies is a bit 
outside the scope of this conference. Could we stick to "Prostate, after
effects"?

			Steve

    Isn't immunization a form of homeopathy?  It is giving small portions
    of a virus, or other antigen which could make one extremely ill in
    large doses to kick in an immune response.  Isn't this also what
    allergists do with allergy shots?
    
    Meg 

    re:.59
    
    No.
    
    A homeopathic remedy is prepared on the basis that like cures like,
    not like prevents like.

    Back to the prostate as the moderator has requested.  I think that with
    prostate improvements/cures as with other health improvements that
    sometimes all of the above can apply.  That is a combination of
    mind power, natural healing, and MD care can each do their own part.
    
    I have never said or implied in seeking prostate health improvments
    that the ONLY thing one should do is go after natural remedies.
    Go to your MD, make sure that the Dr. is doing what he or she can
    to help.  Persue 'natural' remedies too.   Such as eating a balanced
    died, or buying suppliments such as vitamin C, bee pollen or whatever
    has a chance of creating additional nutrient benefits to the prostate
    WITHOUT harmful side effects.  Such as injecting your self with snake
    venom or some such thing which obviously will hurt.   The bee pollen
    is supposed to help because it is rich in zinc, and has a balanced
    combination of nutrients in it.  Instant miracle cure? I don't think
    so.  I have found that all of the above (except snake venom) which
    I havn't tried, have combined to improve my prostate.  Which one or
    ones did it, I have no idea.  
    
    Jeff

    Nice job of getting back to the subject.

	I'd just like to take a moment to point out that bees don't
	have a prostate.

	Thank you.

	-Jim

    You're sure about that, are you?
    
    Mike

Or if they do, it's very small.

    re .64  "Bees don't have a prostate."  They don't?  After all this 
    discussion about bee pollen and the birds and bees equipment, they
    don't even have one!?  Maybe thats why the bees make pollen, so they
    can grow a prostate?   After all, if bee pollen will perform miracles
    maybe it can grow prostates too!
    
    Jeff

    ya know why the killer Bees from Africa are so hostile...
    
    the queen Bee has developed a prostate
    
    				herb

    There, see?  I knew we could steer this conversation into a
    constructive direction!
    
    :-)
    
    
    Mike