Conference quark::mennotes-v1

It's not a case of forgetting, it's a combination of being unaware and
the grooming being difficult.  No, they're not really visible in most cases.
The trimmers on men's shavers don't work and using scissors is difficult and
in some cases dangerous.  There do exist special-purpose trimmers for the
nose and ears, but I imagine most men don't bother to buy one.

If a woman came up to me and said something like that, though, I'd really
have to wonder about her.  Or perhaps I should mention her moustache.

If it's someone you're close to, find a tactful and non-threatening way of
mentioning that it bothers you.  Obviously it doesn't bother him.  If it's
a casual acquaintance, perhaps you need a hobby.

				Steve

    I would try to help her with this problem that she has.
    Men are hairy.    She has some kind of unrealistic
    expectation that they are going to cut certain hairs
    to a length that pleases her.
    
    Personally, I think guys with bushy eyebrows, thick
    hair on their head, etc, are "allowed" to have hair
    about anywhere they like.  But that's my personal view,
    and I sure as heck wouldn't try to tell it to anyone.
    And if the inside of his nose is the only place that
    a guy can grow his hair and he likes it there, so be it.
    
    ;-)       Wil          

    Until I read this note, I never, EVER thought about length of my nose hair.
    Maybe that's why I've yet to meet the woman of my dreams.
    
    LArry
    

    I am very concious of nostril hair. I have to get a pair of scissors
    and trim it once a week. Not all, just a couple that grow long. I have
    never noticed ear hair on me. That would truly be difficult to trim.
    The difficult ones are the ones between my eyes. No I don't have one
    big eyebrow, just a few that frow in there and I have to shave them.
    
    Phil
    

    Well I do recall once seeing a man who had curled his nose hair
    into a sort of a mustache...that kind of put me off my feed a bit..
    but normal hirsuitness of the ears and nose in a man doesn't bother
    me one way or another. Most men who have extra hair here tend to
    be men who are bald on top and extra hairy on the rest of their
    body. It is all of a package with the hormones that cause male
    pattern baldness.
    
    Bonnie

Yikes!! Something else to worry about :^/






Jim

    On the other hand, I remember (vaguely) from my youth the occasion when
    I found myself in passionate embrace with a woman who had a dozen or so
    inch-long hairs around each of her nipples. I was taken aback and
    suggested that she might remedy the situation. She took umbrage:
    "They're NATURAL!" 
    
    Nose and ear hairs may be much the same thing: they're not expected,
    particularly among the young who are held forth as the standards for
    beauty.
    
    If we men were more like most women, then we'd sit around chatting and
    watching the football game and clipping each other's hard-to-reach body
    hair, like women doing each other's coiffure. "Did you SEE the HIT on
    that RECEIVER!!! Ooooh, you've got a real long one on your ear here!"
    
    - Hoyt

    I shave my ears because the hair grows very long. I gave myself one
    hell of a razor slice once and like to have cut my my ear in half!!!
    Scared the bejeebers outta my son when he walked in on me trying to
    stem the red tide.....
    
    I've also snpped my nostrils on more than one occasion......hurts
    like the dickens!!
    
    My wife always lets me know when to groom...
    
    Ken

    	I find they are hardly noticeable since they blend in with my
    moustache. My wife has much more serious things to complain about in me
    than quantity or location of hair.

    I would't say anything...  it is nobody's business, anyway. The
    "recipient" could feel hurt, or angry, at that intrusion of privacy...
    what or whose guidelines are to be used to follow?, and what is good for 
    one is not for another, so, the most intelligent thing to do is...
    do nothing about! appreciate the person for what that person IS, what
    that person is WORTH, not for how he LOOKS... beauty is in the eyes
    of the beholder.  There are many great men in this world with heavy
    moustaches and hairy, and many equally great with almost none and both
    look pretty groomed up to me... may be because I don't find hairs
    offensive but a natural attribute of men (and less, of women).

>>  Yikes!! Something else to worry about :^/

    I hope you guys who ** don't ** have nose hair and ear hair
    are getting properly worried.  This is serious.  
    The proper amount of nose hair and ear hair, properly
    trimmed, is at least as important as whether or not your
    left thumb can be bent back to touch your left forearm,
    or whether or not your kneecaps (patellas) are loose enough.
    
    Please don't ask how loose patellas should be.  If your high
    school coach did not explain that to you, you are already
    lost, and need not apply for membership.
    
    Wil

    What about women shaving their legs all the time!  The least men can
    do is clip their nostril hairs!  Beauticians will also be happy--well
    maybe happy's a bit of an exaggeration--but they will clip men's ear
    hair.
    
    Afterall, how would you men feel about going out with a woman who had
    tufts of hair growing out of her nose and her ears?
    
    Sorry about the rathole.
    SS
    

    I still remember the STRANGENESS of the first woman I "knew" who shaved
    her legs. Bizarroville.
    
    - Hoyt

Geezo,, this is a problem,,,  and here I thought it was a fashion statement...

looks like I'll have to tell dad he's grossing people out!!!!

and derned the luck, nay I have no 'El-nostril-la-harington problemo....

Must be the chemicals in the water...............

    
    so howdya get rid of them?
    
    burn them out with a bic?

 Snort drano.

    
    Ahh, relief ...
    

    
    Actually, I know a woman who has black hairs growing out of her nose,
    and although I wouldn't dream of saying anything about it to her, it is
    most unattractive!
    
    Sam
    

    I bet none of the men who responded here would dream of dating a woman
    with long hairs sticking out of her nose and ears.  As usual, men think
    it's okay if they look like hell but they expect their girlfriends
    and wives to all look as good as Julia Roberts.  The most unkempt of
    men still expect the women in their lives to be beauty queens.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    what on earth is wrong with nose hairs?
                                                          
    they serve as a filter for soot, dust, nuclear waste, and whatnot..
    

    re .22, they look icky.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE .21
    
>    I bet none of the men who responded here would dream of dating a woman
>    with long hairs sticking out of her nose and ears.  
    
    Most women I know (women in general IMHO) don't have these
    characteristics. Men on the other hand, especailly dark skin/haired
    ones tend to have these characteristics and on their backs too.
    
    >As usual, men think
>    it's okay if they look like hell but they expect their girlfriends
>    and wives to all look as good as Julia Roberts.  
    
    Actually, in Europe, some women don't shave their legs/armpits and that
    is considered normal/desireable. To each their own...
    
    >The most unkempt of
>    men still expect the women in their lives to be beauty queens.
    
Probably true.
    
    Steve    

Lorna,

If she keeps them clean, I wouldn't mind. If she cleans them with her tongue,
I'd consider it a plus.

	-- Charles (tongue in cheek [nose?])

�    Actually, in Europe, some women don't shave their legs/armpits and that
�    is considered normal/desireable. To each their own...
    
    Not just in Europe, bucko!
    
    Ray (Patti Smith fan from '75)

    Re: .21
    
    I dunno - what does Julia Roberts look like?  But I think you'd lose
    your bet, Lorna.  There are some of us who don't insist on
    beauty queens, preferring instead to find the inner beauty that
    others might overlook.
    
    Of course, there are also quite a few women who insist that their
    boyfriends and husbands to look like Kevin Costner (or pick your
    own favorite Hollywood hunk).  Shallowness is not the exclusive
    domain of males.
    
    					Steve

    re: -1,
    
         Well said steve!  
    
                           Capt. Scott

>    I bet none of the men who responded here would dream of dating a woman
>    with long hairs sticking out of her nose and ears.  As usual, men think
>    it's okay if they look like hell but they expect their girlfriends
>    and wives to all look as good as Julia Roberts.  The most unkempt of
>    men still expect the women in their lives to be beauty queens.


    Kinda makes  one  wonder  about what sort of self esteem these women
    have, who would  stoop  so  low as to date or even "uggghhh" marry or
    copulate with men with an attitude like this ....
    
    One needs to remember what she was portraying in her "best" film ...
    "Pretty Women" and what sort of person (qualities) displayed ..
    
    It may well be  true the comment about where most mens brains reside
    ... considering the number of them that actually get married ..
    
    ;^)
    
    Bob
    

    Then there are those men who never KNOW first-hand the woman who dates
    only the HUNK Steve alluded to... certainly I am one of them... because
    we *aren't* hunks.  
    
    Thank God for women who accept us as we are.  We love 'em!  
    
    tony
    (who's more like a blob than a hunk)

    Lorna, 
    
    I've enjoyed reading your notes in here, but I have to disagree with
    .21....
    
>    I bet none of the men who responded here would dream of dating a woman
>    with long hairs sticking out of her nose and ears.  
    
    Well, not with this part, :-) but,
    
>    As usual, men think
>    it's okay if they look like hell but they expect their girlfriends
>    and wives to all look as good as Julia Roberts.  
    
    I _do_ disagree with THIS part...  When I go out on a date, I certainly 
    take extra time to make sure my nails are clean, my hair actually does
    have some semblance of a part, I've brushed my teeth, washed my face,
    showered, used deoderant, maybe sprinkled on some cologne, and that I'm
    wearing a shirt and pants for the first time :-), etc...  
    
    In other words, I certainly wouldn't expect my date to approve of my
    looking like hell!
    
    As to the second part, I expect my date to do the same.  And that
    means, basically, to look as good as YOU can.  We are not all endowed
    with the pure beauty of the Hollywood set, but, to me, the important
    thing, as far as looks are concerned, is to take the time to look YOUR 
    best.  It's a simple matter of respect, for yourself and others.
    
>    The most unkempt of
>    men still expect the women in their lives to be beauty queens.
    
    I guess it would be tough for me to comment on this, as I don't
    consider myself an unkempt man (unless you mean the condition of my
    bedroom :-).  But, I will grant you that, for me, if everything else is
    equal, I would prefer the company of the more attractive woman - but
    the important thing here is, that while I consider my 'ideal' to be a
    petite blond, others may certainly find some other 'body type' more
    ideal - in other words, I think EVERYBODY prefers a better looking
    partner - but the only place it matters is in THEIR eyes!.
    
    Dave

    re .31, I didn't mean to imply that all men are unkempt!  Thank
    goodness that isn't the case!  :-)  What I did mean to say is that it
    has often seemed to me that even men who are unkempt, or not very
    good looking physically for one reason or another, still often seem to
    expect that the women they date will be attractive and well-groomed.
    
    My personal experience still indicates to me that most men place what I
    think of as undue significance on the physical appearance of women. 
    For example, I never hear men raving about how beautiful a certain
    woman's soul is!  (Unless they're talking about their wives.)  But,
    let's face it, I've never heard guys standing around at work saying
    things like, "Have you talked to the new FA yet?  My god, that woman
    has a beautiful soul!  I sure would love to spend some time listening
    to her views of life!"  No, it's more likely to be something along the
    lines of, "Have you checked out the new FA yet?  Is she hot looking or
    what?  I wouldn't mind trying her out for size! ha-ha" etc.
    
    I haven't seen any cubicles that have calendars up with pictures
    of women with beautiful souls for each month - Mother Teresa, etc.
    
    You wonder why some women (me, for example) think physical appearance
    is so important to men.  One reason are the comments we get in the
    course of our lives.  For example, I recently spoke with a man I had
    worked with 5 yrs. earlier and hadn't seen since.  He made the comment
    that he thought I was attractive and went on to say that he didn't know
    why he didn't notice I was so attractive when he worked with me 5 yrs.
    ago.  Then, he went on to say, "But, then look who I sat next to back
    then!  "X" (the woman who sat next to him 5 yrs. ago) was *so* striking
    that compared to her *any* other woman would be second rate."  :-(
    I felt like saying, "Gee, thanks. I guess I'm lucky she isn't standing
    next to me now, huh, or I guess you still wouldn't find me attractive!"
    
    Lorna
    

    re-.1
    I never look at a womans soul or sole for that matter for me it is
    personality all the way. I have dated some very beautiful women over
    the last 17 years and i find the majority of them very shallow and
    demanding. It is as if they expect to get by on their looks.
    
    -j(who's pretty average looking himself)
    
    

    
    > -J(Who's pretty average looking himself)
    
     Gee I always thought you were kinda cute Jerry.:-) :-)
    
    David

    Appearance can be assessed from 20 feet away, in a few glances.
    
    Demeanor can be assessed from 10 feet away, in ten minutes of
    observation.
    
    Personality can be assessed from 3 feet away, in an hour's
    conversation.
    
    Strengths, weaknesses, drives, desires, fears can be
    assessed only in many, many hours of conversation.
    
    Soul comes still later.  
    
    It's hard to talk about soul and grooming in the same breath.
    
    Wil
    

    Nice observation, Wil! Sounds accurate to me...
    
    We necessarily make inferences from what we see, and what we hear in a
    bit of conversation. I recognize a certain curling-ironed hair-style,
    for example, as characteristic of a working-class background, and the
    crew-neck-sweater-with-white-turtleneck look dominates Harvard Square
    on Head of the Charles day, symptomatic of a higher economic class. I
    tend to associate some Boston accents with low educational attainment,
    though this guideline has MANY exceptions. These short-cuts are helpful
    because there are so many people and so little time, as the bumper
    sticker says.
    
    In my personal science fiction world, a place made of dozens of
    never-written stories, there are superior devices for making these
    rapid assessments, e.g. a "social credit rating service" which
    maintains and distributes data about social behavior analogous to
    credit bureaus: "he's violent and beats up women - avoid at all cost"
    or "he's tender in bed but will never commit - avoid if seeking a
    permanent relationship." Or personal identification "smart-cards" which
    two individuals can juxtapose to get a read-out on "activities/interests 
    in common" and the "Nelson Compatibility Correlation Coefficient (tm)" --
    kind of a completed-in-advance singles-services questionnaire you can
    carry in your wallet.
    
    In the meanwhile, we make what inferences we can. "He shapes his nose
    hairs into shapes reminiscent of walrus tusks -- probably not my kind
    of guy." Grooming is one of the things we can observe, like weight,
    posture, and facial expression, when we're making that lightening
    judgement which may or may not lead to learning more about the person.
    
    - Hoyt

    re .36, I *must* know - what is a "curling-ironed hairstyle" that
    immediately marks a woman as having a working class background? (I also
    can't help but wonder just what you assume about people who come from
    working class backgrounds...not worth your while or what?)
    
    I come from a working class background but I'm not sure if I have the
    tell-tale "curling-ironed hairstyle" or not, since I don't even know
    what it *is*!!  I do, however, own a crewneck sweater and a white
    turtleneck!  It does get complicated making flash judgements about
    people doesn't it?
    
    Lorna
    

    I think Wil makes some good points, Lorna (and sorry for putting words
    in your mouth in my previous note)...  If I may place another slant on 
    it:
    
    - EVERYONE has a certain mental image of a potential mate.  This image,
      I would contend, gradually moves from purely physical, as
      adolescents, to include the less physical, as we age (personality, 
      charm, wit, grace, humor, perhaps social standing, common interests,
      'comfortable' feeling, good cook, good wife, takes care of children
      well, faithful, etc., all play an increasingly important role ...).
    
    So, while that aspect fades over time, I believe that people still have
    a mental image of a mate that includes some measure of physical 
    attractiveness.
    
    Therefore, because this is the most readily determinable 'trait', this
    is often used as the 'first criteria' that determines if we might like
    to invest the time to determine the other qualities, as Wil observed.
    
    It also seems likely that this 'shift in mental imagery' occurs more 
    slowly in some males, and may be seen as a sign of a certain maturity,
    or self-confidence.  Those that haven't reached this level, the
    'neanderthal man' if you will, may lead you to conclude that 'men', in
    general, only look for physical attractiveness...
    
    In the group setting you described (men talking about a woman), our
    'group neanderthal level' feeds off the individual level, for some
    reason which I'm sure would take decades of study to determine :-)
    As someone that doesn't classify himself in the neanderthal category,
    I have to admit that I have certainly participated in 'group
    neanderthal activities'! :-)
    
    But, of course, in general, all men are pigs, and all we want is sex, 
    so we talk about, and look at, what reminds us of sex!  :-) (so much for
    the above analysis :-)
       
    Dave
    
    PS, I hate to say it, but I know exactly what the previous noter means
    about the 'curling-ironed hairstyle' :-)  But I'll let him tell you
    about it...
               

    Re "curling-ironed hairstyle" -- it's sort of bent away from the face
    toward the back of the head, forming a shape around the face similar to
    the collars affixed to plow-horses :). See the Assembly Square Mall for
    more details. And I appreciate that crewnecks and turtlenecks are only
    indicators, far from definitive. If you want to see the general
    tendency, take notes at the Assembly Square Mall, then proceed to the
    Chestnut Hill Mall. We did that one Xmas shopping expedition, and the
    difference in the dress and shape of the shoppers was startling.
    
    Re people from working class backgrounds: I'm of mixed mind. I assume
    I'm like other people in that I seek friends who are similar to myself,
    in terms of attitudes and values. My background is working class, too,
    and I'm LESS comfortable among folk who attended prep school, drive
    Jaguars, and discuss the bond markets. On the other hand, I'm from Ann
    Arbor where I learned to detest racism, and in the Boston area, I think
    racism is most visible in working class neighborhoods. Looking over my
    set of friends, I'd generalize that they come mostly from the middle,
    neither working class or upper class. There are exceptions, however, and
    I find them to be extremely interesting people, providing glimpses of how 
    the other +/- twenty percent live.
    
    I don't mean to place over-emphasis on grooming or dress; of course
    those are inappropriate bases for valuing people. When you're in a room
    of people at a party, however, and you're deciding who to introduce
    yourself to next, then you apply SOME criteria, and the information
    that comes through our eyes is decisive. I'm old enough (circa 40) that
    my contemporaries show a better signal, frequently: do they have smile
    lines or the unpleasant opposite? Someone who smiles and/or laughs
    enough to mark their face is my kinda person!
    
    - Hoyt
    
    

    re .39, I still don't know what hairstyle you're referring to... 
    Sorry!  I'm not familiar with the Assembly Sq. Mall and rarely go to
    the Chestnut Hill Mall.  It seems like a go to all the other  malls in
    east central Mass though - Copley Place, Natick Mall, Shopper's World,
    Burlington Mall, Auburn Mall, Emerald Square Mall....not the 2 you
    mentioned, though!  :-)  Also, I grew up in a small town 45 miles from
    Boston and even though we were working class we weren't racists.  BTW,
    I'm 41 and I have smile lines.  Not sure about that hairdo, though!
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I *think* he means the kind of hair do that you get when you roll
    your hair backwards on rollers, so it curls back and then forward
    around the face at the ears?
    
    It was the style that many young women wore in the late 50s and early
    60s some teased more or less..
    
    Bonnie

    Nah --
    
    I've heard it called the "big hair" look. It's the standard hair style
    you'll see on just about every teenaged female habitu� of just about
    any suburban US mall.
    
    Mousse and/or styling gel is an essential ingredient for maintaining
    "big hair."
    
    					andrew

 Yeah, I've noticed that intelligence seems to be inversely proportional to
the size of the hair, as well... :-)

It sounds to me like what is currently described as "Big Hair" or "Mall Hair".

Backing up a bit, I want to point out, Lorna, that you changed your
position in .32.  Previously, you had claimed that men only considered
appearances when choosing romantic partners.  Then in .32 you argued that
men will comment on the physical attractiveness of strangers - quite a different
thing!

Women too, of course, do the same thing.  Their heads turn when a set of
"nice buns" walk by, and they will discuss amongst themselves the relative
physical attributes of men they have seen.  The only difference is that
our society is willing to admit that men will "scope out" attractive women
but that it isn't (quite yet) willing to admit that women "scope out" men.
(As for gays, society still isn't willing to admit that they exist at all,
so it has no official opinion on their actions. :-))

However, it would seem that many more women are "attracted" to a man who
has a big bulge in his pants (the wallet, that is), than there are men
who consider a woman's financial position when choosing a partner.

One interesting aspect of "electronic relationships", and getting to know
people via NOTES and MAIL, is that we can form an opinion of another
person's "inner beauty" without even knowing what their external appearance
is.  If one is sufficiently open-minded about acceptable physical appearance,
this method allows people to get together and form relationships who might
never give each other a second glance if they had first met in person, say
at a party.

I will agree with Lorna's earlier comment, though, that far more men have
poor personal grooming and hygiene habits than do women.

			Steve

    re .44, I didn't change my position.  I commented on a couple of
    different things, that's all.  I didn't say that all men only consider
    physical appearances when choosing romantic partners, or at least
    that's not what I meant to say.  I meant to say that most men consider
    physical appearance to be the most important criteria when choosing
    romantic partners, or at least that's the way it has always seemed to
    me anyway.
    
    As far as the big hair look goes, I really don't think that's an
    indication of a working class background, or stupidity, as much as it's
    an indication of a girl or woman attempting to be both in style and
    attractive to men.  My daughter has girlfriends who are A students who
    try to fix their hair that way.  It's just in style.  
    
    Lorna
    

 "In style" means "everybody else is doing it."

Re: .45

Personally, I find "big hair" hideous.

As for most men using physical appearance as the most important criteria,
I disagree.  Sure, there are some men who do this, but I don't think
"most".  If that was so, there's be an awful lot more un-paired folks wandering
around out there.

The thing is, there are women out there who are quite attractive, physically,
but who have an extremely unattractive personality.  I know a woman who is
actually quite good-looking, but being around her is like having fingernails
drawn across a chalkboard, as she never seems to smile and is always
putting herself down.  Who would want to stay around?

I also know a woman who goes through boyfriend after boyfriend, always
insisting that each one be a "hunk", and not caring at all about
whether they share interests, or whether his values are compatible with hers.
There's a guy around who worships the ground she walks on, and she agrees
he is "very nice", but though he's NOT ugly, he's not the "great buns"
type she has selected for herself, so she ignores him.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that if a person really likes
themself and is sensitive and cheerful towards others, they become more
attractive, even if their physical features haven't changed.  Likewise
even the most fabulous Playmate-type can appear unattractive if she
gives off "bad vibes".  (The same goes for men, of course.)

It's all in the attitude.

				Steve

    re .47, well, I realize most men don't wind up with physically
    beautiful women because there just aren't enough to go around, and
    maybe you're right.  Maybe most men don't consider looks the most
    important thing in picking a romantic partner, maybe only some men do. 
    But, it is still annoying to me how often so many men rave on and on
    about how good looking some women are, never mentioning any other
    qualities.  Maybe it's all talk, but I'm sick of it.  I'm sick of how
    much of a big deal men make about really good looking women.  It makes
    me feel bad when I hear it because I know I'm not way above average
    looking.  It makes me feel like physical looks are so overwhelmingly
    important to men and there's no way I can possibly compete with
    beautiful women because I'm just average looking and nothing else
    counts.  That's how it makes me feel when I hear that kind of talk.
    
    Lorna
    

    The beauty standard represented by "Pretty Woman" is an artifact of
    genes, good nutrition, and possibly orthodontry. There's another kind
    which I appreciate more and more as I age (and thicken; and mature): the
    sheen of physical fitness. I see people (men and women) who's features
    aren't special, who may have narrow shoulders (men) or big butts (men
    and women) -- but they are FIT and they are beautiful. There's little
    or no extra flesh. They walk with a certain carriage and energy. It's
    obvious that their self-image is holding up as well as their chins.
    This is the standard to which I can aspire, with my mediocre genes. It
    is within the grasp of all of us (barring debilitating disabilities).
    
    - Hoyt

    re .49, you really think that having "no extra flesh" is within the
    grasp of every single adult regardless of age?  I don't think that's
    the case and I'm speaking as a 95 lb. 41 yr. old.  I think some people
    would always have a little extra flesh on them regardless of exercise
    and eating right, and it's not their fault.  You might not like the way
    they look, but it still isn't their fault.
    
    Lorna
    
    

    Ah, an opportunity to employ the sophistry of economics professors,
    where "profits are driven to zero under capitalism" but the *observed*
    profits are simply the requisite return on capital, not REAL profits...
    
    Let us define "extra" as that flesh which could be omitted by proper
    nutrition and exercise. Let "additional" describe flesh which is NOT
    "extra" yet is more than the "Pretty Woman" standard; additional flesh
    exists because of genetics and because we're not nineteen and besides
    that woman isn't really a member of our Earthly species anyway (I
    inspected a People Magazine close-up and she has 54 teeth! :).
    
    My point was that actually hip diameter, measured in inches or meters,
    is less relevant to beauty (of a particular sort) than the fact that
    the person takes good care of him/herself, is fit, and has the energy
    and posture of a fit person. Fitness is actually a lot more than weight
    control: I know one budda-like figure who moves around the tennis court
    like a cat, and *he is beautiful* (IMHO).
    
    - Hoyt

    
    
    It is quite simple.  Men are more visually stimulated, whereas woman
    are (in general) more emotionally stimulated.
    
    I think that is the explanation for women worrying more about looks
    (they need to appeal to the visual demands of men) than their male
    counterparts.
    

    RE: .52
    
    Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't realize it was so simple!

    Lorna, ;-)
    
    I know lots of people who think you are well above average in looks!
    
    BJ

>Note 546.54                       Good Grooming                         54 of 54
>                                -< aside! ;-) >-
>
>    I know lots of people who think you are well above average in looks!
>    BJ

    From what  I've  heard,  I  thought  Lorna was intelligent and had a
    great personality !! ;^)  ;^)
    
    -BobE
    

    re .54, .55, gee, thanks, guys!  :-)  I guess I'm not stupid and homely
    with a rotten personality anyway!!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

>>    I know lots of people who think you are well above average in looks!
>>    BJ

>    From what  I've  heard,  I  thought  Lorna was intelligent and had a
>    great personality !! ;^)  ;^)

 D) All of the above. :-)

    I think it's even more simple than .52 put it.  It's not idealogically
    correct (IC? :), but hey, people is just people.
    
    Men *and* women are visually driven critters.  It's just the way we be. 
    We are attracted to things by visual impact.  We take notice of red
    Lamborghini's far more than we take notice of a brown Chevrolet
    Cavalier Station Wagon.  Each car has it's merits and faults and
    practicality, but still, most folks, most of the time will stare at the
    red sports car and not even notice the brown station wagon.  Ya know?  
    
    It's often unfortunate that first impressions (and this brings the
    whole argument back to the topic at hand - good grooming) make such
    lasting impressions, but they do.  I know if I meet someone and I look
    like sh*t, they are going to think, hey, she's a dog.  (And I don't
    need any help to elict that response!!!)  If I look good, they'll get
    an entirely different impression.
    
    I really don't think men or women are *really* any different in
    physical appearance having importance.  It just seems that way.
    
    
    ---kim

    I don't know how many times I've mistaken a smiling woman for an
    attractive woman.  My wife always corrects me.  "She isn't really all
    that good looking, she just smiles alot."  So I must be a "smile man".
    
    Most men aren't stupid enough to think that all the man-talk about
    women (Va, va, Vooom), really means anything.  In the end a man will look 
    for a woman who is as attractive to him in as many different ways as 
    possible (i.e., she's alot like his mother :^).  I'm sorry if women are
    offended by the lounge lizard kind of talk, but I've certainly heard 
    enough women doing the same kind of thing.  (Come to think of it, I find
    it kind of offensive.  I'm with you Lorna.)
    
    I was always told that women don't make themselves attractive for men,
    but for other women.  Is that a myth?  I know for a fact that my wife
    does not make herself up for my benefit.  She's always dressed to
    someone else's standards than my own.  I wonder who it is?  :^)
    
    I might drive a brown Chevy Cavalier Station Wagon, but not one that
    had nose hairs.
    
    							- Vick

    
>    I was always told that women don't make themselves attractive for men,
>    but for other women.  Is that a myth?  

Certainly not, IMHO. This reaches the pits at weddings, where what people 
wear receives more attention from women than the people themselves !
It was a revelation to me to listen to the comments on our wedding 
photographs. Maybe I should go and stir it up in the Weddings notefile
instead ?

:-)  Peter