Conference quark::mennotes-v1

   REAL MEN  is  holding  a  rally tonight to protest the appearance of Andrew
   Dice Clay at the Worcester Centrum.  The reason I am attending is that...

   I feel  Andrew Dice Clay is responsible for the present and future violence
   against  women,  even  if indirectly.  Just like skinhead propaganda can be
   said  to  be  contributively responsible for hate crimes committed by their
   skinhead audience.  I feel he is responsible for adding to and perpetuating
   the  climate  in  which  men  too freely sexual assault and commit violence
   against women.

   The reason  I am going tonight is because I think it is about time that MEN
   stood  up  and ADMITTED the fact that MEN rape and sexual assault other men
   and  women.  And if your first response is "Hey you, you know ALL men don't
   rape!",  I  ask you to examine where these feelings are coming from.  Often
   it  is  male  denial of the fact that men rape.  I did not say that ALL men
   rape.   But  why  is  that  our goal? I would like to see "NO men rape" but
   right  now  am concerned about the 97% of rape and sexual assault that *is*
   done  by  MEN.   When we get closer toward having only those 3% of women to
   worry  about,  that is when I will disagree that Men rape.  At 97%, how can
   we  men  disagree?  And that is why I think we MEN should not deny the fact
   that "MEN rape" and should act to do something about it. 

   The reason  I personally am going to the CEASEfire action tonight is not to
   deny  Andrew  Dice Clay his chance of free speech.  (Nor is that REAL MEN's
   intent).   I  think  he  deserves  the  right to perform his sexist/racist/
   homophobic  brand of humor.  But I think we also deserve the right to speak
   our  minds.   And where better to highlight the situation of sexual assault
   against women than at a gathering like his.

   I think  it  is equally important for this to be seen on the media tonight,
   that  while  some  men  choose to support the ADC contributions to the easy
   climate  of sexual assault, there are at least some other MEN that publicly
   oppose it.  The balance is important.

   That is  also  why  I feel it is important to have reclaimed the term "REAL
   MAN"  to  mean  being  a  valued and valuing person, not it's current macho
   definition.  REAL MEN is not an anti-male group.  It is still right in line
   with other men's issues. REAL MEN combat sexual assault against women.


[From part of a REAL MEN handout we're distributing tonight...]

   Andrew Dice  Clay  is a stand-up comedian who has become a major box-office
   attraction  over the past couple of years.  His act is largely comprised of
   relentless  abuse  toward  women,  children,  lesbians  and gays, people of
   color,   and   immigrants.    It  is  the  comedic  equivalent  of  violent
   pornography.

   We believe  there  is  a  link  between  this  kind of verbal abuse and the
   widespread physical abuse perpetrated against these groups.  We are calling
   on men to take responsibility toward ending this violence.

   We are also asking men and women to join us in protesting Clay's appearance
   at  the Worcester Centrum.  It is especially irresponsible and shameful for
   the Don Law agency to promote - and the Centrum to host - Clay's appearance
   on year TO THE DAY that Carol Stuart was murdered.


   HOW BAD IS THE VIOLENCE THAT DICE CLAY MAKES JOKES ABOUT?

   - In  Massachusetts,  a  woman  is  murdered  by  her  husband or boyfriend
   approximately every 22 days.

   - In 1988, battered women's programs in Massachusetts sheltered 5,407 women
   and children who were forced to flee the violence in their homes.

   - In  1988,  battered  women's  hotlines  in the Commonwealth received over
   58,000  calls  from  women  in  crises.   10,000 more were helped with peer
   support and advocacy services.

   - One in THREE women will be the victim of rape or sexual assault.

   - One  in  FOUR  girls  and  one in SEVEN boys will be the victim of sexual
   assault by the age of 18.


   We're not laughing.


   -Erik (member REAL MEN/Men to End Sexual Assault)

    I do not rape women
    I do not assault women
    I do not harass women.
    
    I refuse to let any *&^%$# put me on some guilt trip for what 
    some other *&^%$ has done.
    
    fred();

Re: .2

I don't (knowingly) do any of those things either, but I know that there are
men who do, and I am in full support of efforts to educate men in general
about the issues.  I don't feel that any sort of guilt trip is being laid on me
by acknowledging that, on the whole, women are at risk from men in our
society.  After all, SOMEONE's doing all these rotten things to women!

Rather than sticking one's head in the sand and pretending that the problem
is "someone else's", why not support causes such as CEASEfire?

				Steve

 I think that a protest of Andrew Dice Clay is pointless and even possibly
counterproductive, and would not join in such a protest regardless of the fact 
that I think that the idea of men uniting against violence is a good idea.
ADC is an act, pretend, not real. His brand of humor relies on the fact that
people are somewhat squeamish about sex talk, and often laugh even when they
are mildly offended. In small doses, ADC is funny IMO.

 Tonight's rally will appear to those who will see it to be a bunch of wierdos
with a cause making alot of noise over nothing. The protestors will get a few
cross eyed stares as the people go to the show. BFD. Nobody is going say "gee,
they have a point, let's rip up our tickets." All that will happen is people 
will say "joke 'em if they can't take a ..." And the issue will be lost in
the hullaballoo.

 The issue is a serious one. I don't think that standing outside an ADC show
with placards and chants will do anything positive.

 Just my opinion.

 The Doctah

    Re .0
    
    Why do you feel Robert Bly's work with men tends to lead the mens
    movement "astray"?
    
    Why also do you feel that the mens movement, mens support
    groups/workshops, has to be focused only on how men treat women?  Men
    helping other men and supporting other men in becoming the total persons
    that can be, fulfilling themselves as men and all that involves, isn't
    necessarily a reaction to the womens movement.  There's more to it than
    that.  
    
    I think the womens movement has been and is wonderful for women.  I
    also think that, yes, important issues like rape, physical abuse, child
    abuse, domestic violence, and so forth should be brought out in the open
    and talked about.  (These problems are very serious societal sicknesses 
    that we, as a culture, have been hiding and denying, afraid to look
    at, for too long.)
    
    However, I do feel uncomfortable when you describe the "mens movement"
    and the work men are doing with each other in general as being -- or as
    something that ought to be -- a forum where men sit around and say to
    each other, "What can we do to treat women better?"  Like I said, these
    are important issues, but perhaps they ought to be handled in support
    groups and counseling for men (and women too?) who batter their wives/kids,
    support groups and counseling for men who have raped, support groups and 
    counseling for men who sexually abuse their children, but.... but.... to 
    simply say that men should band together in a "mens movement" in order to 
    groove on "how bad we are in general toward women" is not, in my eyes, 
    what a "mens movement" is or should be all about in general.  
    
    Relationships with women is one, and only one, part of the work that
    men have been doing all over the country in recent years.  Though I
    don't agree with everything Robert Bly says, I think he is on the right
    track in improving the male condition in America.... and without these
    massive guilt trips!  The kind of "mens movement" you describe in .0
    seems to be the type we see every day on the Oprah Winfrey Show.  Male
    Bashing, which won't do anybody any good.  
    
    Regards,
    Paul

    WEll Steve, if you want to support a group that THEMSELVES have their
    heads in the sand, then so be it, but please dont accuse others that
    may not agree with their mentality of said action.  I normally dont
    support a group that constantly acuses me because of my maleness,
    constantly reminds me that all men are possible rapists etc etc blah
    blah....
    
    The constant guilt trip that these so called support groups put upon
    men is unreal, I will have no part of such ignorance.
    
    

>   <<< Note 525.6 by NRUG::MARTIN "GUN-CONTROL=Holding it with both hands" >>>


	What sort of groups do you support in the fight against rape/for
	equality?


	What can these groups do different to gain your support?




        kathy    

    Well, sinse you asked Kathy,
    
    I support groups like FAIR and  the like.  Shoot, I even support NOW to
    an extent.
    
    What can they do?  well, for starters, they can stop with the constant
    badgering of innocent males, stop with the constant acusations, stop
    with the manipulated statistic readings.... hows that for a beginning?

    re: .9
    
    But then Sally Jesse and Oprah would be out of work!  ;-)
    
       - Larry

    Also posted in momcat::womannotes-v3
    
    From The Worcester Telegram and Gazette, Thursday 10/25/90
    
    The Real Men vs. the Dice Men - Paul Della Valle
    
    "I hate women, you faggot" - An Andrew Dice Clay fan to a protester 
    outside the Centrum last night
    
    Last November, during the first of two sold-out shows at the Centrum, 
    Andrew Dice Clay picked out a woman in the third row.  He leaned over 
    the stage apron and leered at her while her picture flashed up on huge 
    monitors.
    
    Dice Clay, his hair slicked back, a studded black leather jacket and 
    black jeans on, suggested into the microphone that the woman's short 
    dress and makeup meant "somebody is going to treat me like the pig 
    that I am."
    
    Funny?
    
    
    Nervous Laughter
    
    The woman laughed nervously.  Her boyfriend and another man stood up 
    and gave each other a high five.  The Centrum audience - made up mostly
    of young men in their 20s but about one quarter female --  cheered
    wildly as Dice Clay poured on the abuse.
    
    Satire?
    
    For the next hour, Dice Clay spewed angry and violent invective thinly 
    disguised as sophomoric jokes.  Some of it was aimed at gays, some at 
    blacks or immigrants.  But most of it was violently aimed at women.
    
    Funny?
    
    Satire?
    
    FBI Statistics

    According to the FBI, one of three women will be a victim of rape or 
    sexual assault in her life.  A woman is murdered by her husband or 
    boyfriend in Massachusetts every 22 days.  More than 5,400 women and 
    children were sheltered in battered women's programs in Massachusetts 
    last year.
    
    Dice Clay was back last night.  His popularity, based purely on shock 
    value, has faded as his lack of comedic talent becomes apparent.  But 
    about 10,000 fans, many of them women, still shelled out $22.50 to see 
    him.
    
    This time, though, it wasn't just his fans that showed up.

    Real Man were there.


    Passed Out Leaflets

    About 30 people marched around the Centrum entrance at Foster Street 
    and Worcester Center Boulevard.  They handed out leaflets, took abuse 
    and carried signs: "Real Men Value Women," "We're Not Laughing -- 
    Homophobia Hurts," "Hitting Women Is No Joke."

    Four of the protesters were women from Holy Cross.  Others were from 
    Worcester's Rape Crisis Program.  A dozen or so were Real Men, the 
    Boston-area organization that put the protest together.

    Picketing last night took some courage.

    Signs were ripped.  Hundreds of young men, many with closely cropped, 
    jock-style hairdos, took leaflets only to throw them back, shouting, 
    "Faggots, go home," "Dykes," "Dice, Dice, Dice" and dozens of graphic 
    obscenities culled from the act of their moronic hero.
    
    "A lot of people have said to me `don't you realize it's an act and 
    he's parodying the most vulgar aspects of white American masculinity',"
    Jackson Katz of Swampscott, the 30-year old founder of  Real Men said. 
    "I think people are kidding themselves.  The object of  satire is to
    get to know the truth from a different angle, to  illuminate a subject
    in a certain way.  What is Andrew Dice Clay  telling us?  What is he
    illuminating?  I think that's a bogus  argument, that it's satire."


    Just Don't Get It

    If it is indeed satire, many of the fans streaming into the Centrum 
    last night, in the words of Ted Koppel, just don't get it.  The anger
    of one group after another became palatable, faces contorting, 
    obscenities spitting into the cool night air, genitals grabbed as if 
    in a challenge, as if the presence of the protesters questioned their 
    very manhood.

    It got real ugly at times.  To any observer, it would certainly 
    advance Katz's position that acts like Dice Clay's contribute to 
    violence against women, in fact, foster violence.  "Dice Clay is the 
    comedic equivalent of violent pornography." Katz said.  Most of us can 
    laugh at jokes about sex or the battle between the sexes.  Some of us 
    laugh at "Married with Children."  But this crap is different.  Scary.


    Sign Ripped

    "Flaming faggot," one man sneered at Jonathan McDowell of Somerville, 
    a member of Real Men who was wading through the crowd at the door, 
    handing out leaflets.  Another guy ripped McDowell's yellow sign.  A 
    guy in a Cincinnati Reds hat took the leaflet, crumpled it up and 
    threw it at McDowell's head.  "I love violence," the Reds fan yelled.

    Katz was called a faggot and pussy by at least a dozen punks last 
    night.  He could've taken any one of them apart.  He was an all-star 
    noseguard at Swampscott High, a 200-pound, three-letter athlete who 
    said no to the recruiters who wanted him to play college ball.  He 
    minored in women's studies at UMass Amherst instead.


    Macho Culture

    "Even while I was in the middle of the jock world, the jockocracy, I 
    felt uneasy about the traditional sex roles," he said.  "I started 
    thinking about how much fear the women I was friendly with had to live 
    with on a daily basis.  They couldn't walk home late at night... I 
    started thinking I'm a man, I'm in a position to change this because 
    of who I am and where I come from, because of my background in macho 
    culture."

    The Macho culture.  I'll tell you, it was embarrassing to be a member 
    of it outside the Centrum last night.
    

 Was that supposed to be "news" or commentary, Lee? Was it on the Op-ed page,
where it belonged?

 The Doctah

    it was on the 1st page of the "living" section.  haven't seen any globe
    coverage yet...

    Mike Z, and the Doctah:
    
    What exactly do you find funny about ADC?
    
    Particularly in regards to his jokes about women.
    
    I'm curious.
    
    -roger
    

Please use note 476 for discussion of Andrew Dice Clay.

		Steve

>   I feel it is putting the
>   men's  issues  movement  back  on  track after the misnamed Robert Bly 'new
>   men's  movement'  tended to lead the movement's momentum astray.  

This is an interesting perspective.  Even as a non-Robert-Blye fan, I 
would be interested in hearing more.  

Correct me if I'm wrong: it appears as if you believe that there is a 
"right" way to conduct "the" men's movement, and that Blye wasn't 
"doing it right."  Is this a correct understanding of what you are 
saying, Eric?

Also, I'm not aware of an organized men's movement in the 70s.  
Perhaps you could enlighten me.  I'm only aware of men joining the 
feminist movement, which I didn't think of as a men's movement.

I like Michael Meade's suggestion of using the term "Men Movements."  

							--Gerry

    RE: .14         "not (porn => rape) => not (DICE => hate)"
    
    The reason someone wired up by porn does not rape someone is that they
    masturbate. What do they do after an ADC show, beat themselves up ?
    
    (Agree with your comment of the irrelevance of how hunky the Real Men
    boss is, though, mike.)
    
    ...Mark

    RE. Last
    OH?  And how do you know this??  personal experience?  Serious.
    How can you make that statement.
    
    At the risk of labeling myself (ha, like I havent already ) Mel and I
    once in a while LIKE to watch a soft porn or two.  So, that means that
    after we watch this particular style of tele, we go and either
    masturbate or rape someone?  GESH!  Some people!
    
    Ill be sure and tell Mel that its my tern to rape this week.....

    RE: 525.19
    
    Ok: masturbate or have sex. Rape doesn't come into it. If I have an
    an argument with the left hand side of the equation summarising mikes
    point, there would be no point in commenting on the deductions from
    the left hand side.
    
    The primary point of pornography is to aid masturbation; this might
    vary from country to country or society: I believe in America the
    perception of someone who reads Playboy is of a successful... ermm...
    playboy whereas in Britain its seen as just another stroke-rag. Perhaps
    the differences are just ones of perception, I don't know. Whats the
    point of sexual self gratification if you don't finish the job ? I
    heard of one study (which I can't pin down so I won't claim it as a
    defence of any point I might inadvertantly make) in which a common
    trait was sought in a group of rapists, and the only one they found was
    that they did not masturbate (and presumably didn't have lovers either
    as you'd get a pretty funny result otherwise but I don't recall this
    being explicitly pointed out).
    
    >>> Ill be sure and tell Mel that its my tern to rape this week.....
                                             ^^^^
    What you do with sea-birds is your own business !
    
    ...Mark.
    

    Point taken Mark.
    
    As for the bird comment.. :-)  Typos are fun eh?
    

    I guess the article highlights the real reason why I couldn't get too
    enthused about participating in an organization like CEASEfire: it
    would require me to confront the neanderthal qualities of many of my
    gender. It's not pleasant, acknowledging the kind of men who did the
    name-calling and crotch-grabbing in the article. More importantly, I'm
    plain scared of them. I would hate their comments about my sexuality,
    and I'd fear plain old violence.
    
    - Hoyt

    When certain groups of troglodites among men are concerned, I tend to
    Woody Allen's view that satiric articles, protest marchs and whatever
    are all very nice, but baseball bats really get the message through. I
    can't believe that some imbeciles publicly commit themselves to sexual
    harassment...it's disgusting, and a taste of their own medicine would
    do them pretty good...
    ...Paul

    Re:  .23  Paul,
    
             ".... but baseball bats really get the message through...
              and a taste of their own medicine would do them pretty
              good..."
    
    The "troglodites" disgust me as much as they seem to disgust you.  But
    are you suggesting we bash their heads in with baseball bats to change
    their attitudes?  Isn't that like the way some "right-to-lifers" bomb 
    abortion clinics, filled with people, in order to "save lives"?  
    
    Erik.... I think Gerry articulated in .17 some of the good questions I 
    had as well.  Specifically, why don't you think Robert Bly is on the right
    track in his work with men all over the country?  And also, what is
    your idea of a "right" mens movement as well as a "wrong" mens
    movement?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    Re: Pornography = rape.  I am glad to see that some people do not
    believe that porn = rape.  As I understand it rape is percieved by many
    as a primarily sexually driven crime: Unsatisfied lust often = rape.
    Actually rape is a violence/power driven crime with sex as the method
    that power and anger is expressed through.
    
    I dare say that unsatisfied lust = frustration, not rape.
    Rape would only enter in if there was a violent/power component too.
    
    I have never had the slightest urge to rape anyone when I have been
    sexually frustrated.... frustration yes... but not the urge to do any
    body harm in relieving my frustration. 
    
    Jeff

RE .26

Thanks.  That reference is handy.


			--Ger

    
    RE: .26
    
    	Those were the movement's groups (one movement, different
    	approaches and groups) I was refering too.
    
    	Thanks.
    
    	-Erik	

    
    Complete the following ADC material, heard on the radio advertizement
    for the Centrum show - (to the best of my recollection)
    
    	"Doe, a deer, a female deer, Ray, was_the_guy_who" (Bleeeeeeeeeeeeep)
    
    I spose "Ray" was the guy who went to the ADC show. Perhaps a little
    "consciousness raising" by CEASEfire or other groups willing to present
    that opportunity to those attendees openminded enough to consider
    it *is* in order.
    
    	Joe
    

    RE: .23  Your comment about pro-lifers is out of context as well as a
    bunch of BS.  I hope you have SOME examples.  I only know of very few
    bombings (which, as a pro-lifer, I think were wrong)  and none of them
    happened at clinics which were "filled with people".  As a matter of
    fact, the people who did the bombings made sure they were empty.  I'm
    sorry for getting off track, but it raises my blood pressure when
    people spread misinformation.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike 

    
    	I suspect that some people will see bombing a women's health clinic
    	as wrong as bombing a Roman Catholic cathedral. The fact it was
    	empty doesn't lessen the statement of violent destruction one side
    	uses on the other. 
    
    	-Erik  

    Erik,
    
    If you will take a minute and reread the context in which the not in
    question was written, you will se that the point being made was that 
    pro-LIFE people were trying to make their point by bombing clinics which 
    were occupied, thereby taking life which is an outright lie.  Also you
    may want to note that this pro-lifer as well as the MAJORITY of others
    do not support such tactics.  So you have in fact eluded the issue
    being addressed.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike 

    Mike,
    
       The point is, pro-lifer's bombing women's clinics is as wrong as
    pro-choice'rs bombing churches.  I know that the majority of people on
    either side of the fence do not support such violent tactics, but there
    are fanatics on both sides of this issue that believe that violent
    confrontations and measures are necessary to protect their particular
    "right".
    
       On a less-destructive side, obstructing women from using the services
    of a clinic or hospital (that performs abortions) when many of those
    women are going for gyn. exams or other (non-abortion) reasons is as
    wrong as blocking people from entering a Catholic church or defacing a
    church for its stand on abortion.
    
       - Larry

    
    	Ah, I wasn't refuting your "the pro-lifer's who bomb try to not
    	take lives" point, Mike. I've never heard pro-lifer's being accused
    	of trying to kill anyone. However, a select few in the anti-choice
    	camp have engaged in destructive violence. I haven't been aware of
    	a similar faction in the pro-choice camp.
    
    	I just added my comment to say that I don't respect any
    	destructive civil violence, by either side of the issue.
    
    	-Erik                                    
    
    

    Something I read:
    
    I've never seen a pro-choice advocate force anyone to have an abortion.
    I've never seen a right-to-bear-arms advocate force anyone to buy a
    gun.
    I've never seen an agnostic or athiest force people not to go to
    church.
    I've never seen a First Amendment advocate force anyone to read or
    watch anything they didn't want to read or watch.
    
    Yet, right to lifers try to stop women from making choices about
    thier own bodies.  Gun control advocates try to force people to give
    up thier guns.  Religious fanatics, with THEIR morals in mind, try to
    mix church and state and ban anything that they feel is against their
    religious way of looking at the world.
    
    LEAVE ME ALONE!
    
    Signed,
    
    Gene_who_wants_to_be_left_alone_and_agrees_with_the_above

    RE: Gene, it is not their body that is being destroyed, not even a part
    of their body.  This has been proven WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT. 
    
    
    RE: Erik & Larry, the not I addressed specifically indicated that some
    pro-lifers have bombed abortion clinics which were occupied.  This is
    the verbage which I wanted to expose as the untruth.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    
    I would like to cite the note and specific verbage I have been
    addressing.
    
    <Note 525.24  JOKUR::CIOTO                                            >
    <                                                                     >
    <Isn't that like the way some "right-to-lifers" bomb abortion clinics,>
    <filled with people, in order to "save lives"?                        >
    
    This is what I so strongly objected to.  I did not want to get into the
    debate over abortion in this topic, only to point out as false something 
    which was presented as something which has and is occuring.
    
                                                            
    Peace,
    
    Mike

Excuse me, but this topic is not supposed to be for arguing abortion
issues.  Note 416 covered this particular item in fair detail, I'd appreciate
it if this note (525) could get back to the subject of CEASEfire.

				Steve

    Steve, your excused. :') 
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike