Conference quark::mennotes-v1

There were 38 men at the first noon-time presentation of the 
Spit Brook Men's Forum.  (Only five women -- that was a surprise!)

We passed out an Information & Response Form.  I am posting this
form here for men who could not make it to the meeting and want to
know more about what is happening.  The information part of the
form contains pointers to files in a public directory.  These files
describe the three kinds of groups that are available for men.

You can copy and print these files for your own perusal.  If you
are in Spit Brook and you are interested, send me MAIL so that I
can put you on a mailing list.  If you aren't in Spit Brook perhaps
you can use this information to get something going in your own
facility.

Bill

***********************************************************************

                        SPIT BROOK MEN'S FORUM

                    INFORMATION AND RESPONSE FORM
                    -----------------------------
                       (as of September 24, 1990)

    Where to get information:

    . Documents in printable format, all in VAXUUM::W4_:[PUBLIC.MEN]

        FORUM_1_PRESENTATION.TXT   (announcement sent out on 10-SEP-1990)
        FORUM_1_RESPONSE_FORM.TXT  (this sheet)

        FORUM_DESCRIPTION.PS       (2-page description of Men's Forum)
        SUPPORT_GROUPS_DESC.PS     (14-page description of Support Groups)
        CORE_GROUPS_DESC.PS        (14-page description of Core Groups)

    . Start-Up Forum Members:

        VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNER   TLE::FISHER         UCOUNT::COUNIHAN
        WECARE::LUBLIN        DSSDEV::FERGUSON    VAXUUM::PARSONS

    . General announcements, made through MAIL and in NOTES conferences:

        QUARK::MENNOTES               RANGER::WOMANNOTES-V3

        
============ tear off here, fill in below and leave with us ==============

               RESPONSE TO 24-SEP-1990 PRESENTATION OF MEN'S FORUM
                -------------------------------------------------

  NAME:_____________________________________________

  DTN: _________________  NODE: ____________________


  I am interested in being on the mailing list for:  (circle)

     MEN'S FORUM        SUPPORT GROUPS          CORE GROUPS

  Please add any comments that you have on the presentation,
  videotape, ideas presented, etc.:

I have been a part of a men's group for the past year. I like the idea of
participating thru the work environment (around lunch). I will accept the role
of coordinator for such a group in Merrimack. Send me mail if you are interested
We can use the model that the Spitbrook group is using. Its the kind of thing
that might really make an impact on our lives.

ATSE::KATZ

Although we at ZKO are more than happy to support efforts in other 
sites, we want to limit out scope to one site for now.  If you would 
like some background on the men's groups forming here, you can copy 
the following write-ups:

	TLE::DOCD$:[FISHER.PUBLIC]MENS_FORUM.PS
                                  CORE_GROUPS.PS
				  SUPPORT_GROUPS.PS

After checking out the write-ups, if you want more information, you 
can contact Bill Kohlbrenner.  I think that a lot of us would be 
thrilled if you started a similar effort in Merrimack.  However, we 
can't coordinate groups outside of ZKO, for now.

						--Gerry

    
    Here is latest notice of men's activities at the Spit Brook site.
    
    *************************************************************

	NOTICE OF SECOND PRESENTATION OF MEN'S FORUM AT SPIT BROOK:

				"FATHERS"


    To:  All Spit Brook Residents
 
    You are invited to attend the second lunch time presentation of    
    the Men's Forum.  The topic will be "Fathers."  A showing of 
    excerpts from a video featuring Robert Bly and Michael Meade
    will be followed by an open discussion.  There will also be brief
    updates on the other work of the forum.


    	When:  Monday, November 5, 1990, 12:00 noon
    	Where: Babbage Auditorium
    	Who:   All Spit Brook residents 


    FORUM UPDATE:
    =============
	
    The initial presentation drew 50 people to Babbage.  Excerpts from
    the Minnesota Public Television program "On Being a Man" were presented.
    A description of the forum's proposed activities and a discussion of
    the video and its relevance to the audience followed.

    Since then, the forum has met weekly.  Some new men have joined the
    forum.  The organizing of men's core groups and men's support groups 
    is also taking place in separate gatherings.  

    The forum continues to plan for future activities and welcomes
    contributions from interested men.  You can contact the forum by
    sending MAIL to Bill Kohlbrenner, VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNER.


		SO, BRING YOUR LUNCH, 
		=====================
		YOUR IDEAS AND YOUR FRIENDS 
		===========================
		TO BABBAGE ON MONDAY, NOVEMBER 5, AT NOON.
		=========================================

    RE: .1  "(Only five women --that was a surprise!)"
    
    Why were you surprised that there were only five women?
    
    

    RE: .5
    
    My experience in starting men's activities is that women
    have at least a high degree of curiosity, and often want
    to be there in order to understand it, and sometimes want 
    to have a say in what happens, or at least want to know
    that they will be heard.
    
    This seems perfectly understandable to me, because I think
    that many women have a big stake in what men do, how men
    feel, etc.   Traditionally, women have "managed" a lot of
    different aspects of their male partner's life -- social life,
    feeling life, health life, etc.  I'm not endorsing that,
    just observing it. :-)
    
    There was a noon-time gathering for veterans a couple of years
    ago, and more women (non-vets) came than men.  Their interest
    was in trying to understand what it was like for male veterans,
    Viet vets  in particular.  That's why I went too -- to try to
    understand.
    
    And then, a lot of women feel oppressed by men and are 
    suspect of men getting together.
      
    So, I thought that more would come.
    
    In fact, based on the veteran meeting, I assumed there would be
    more women than men.
    
    Bill

Well, at least women were welcome and the existence of the meeting was
advertised to them.  Contrast this to how the very existence of the
Stone Center project and meetings were kept hidden from men at Spit Brook.
There are also a number of women's groups at Spit Brook today whose existence
is extremely low profile.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily wrong, but I am struck by the
difference in approach.  I think Bill's comment about suspicion is only
too true.

				Steve

    I think the Stone Center project needed to do just what it did.
    I wouldn't fault the women who organized it for not being more
    public.  Women "organizing" in a corporation to further their
    interest ** as women ** is not exactly the norm.  Going public
    with it too soon would have invited all kinds of disaster.
    
    When the Stone Center project started its presentations, men
    were invited.  I went to all of them.  I learned a lot from
    those presentations, from Jean Baker Miller's talks, especially.
    I hope women will come to the Men's Forum's presentations.
    
    There are a number of women's groups operating now in Spitbrook,
    and that makes me feel good.  I certainly don't need to know what
    they "do" in those groups.  I would think it very strange if the
    women in those groups thought they ought to invite men into them!
    Likewise, when men's groups start, it would be very strange to 
    invite women into them.
    
    There will probably be a time to meet together as a mixed group.
    I think there are times to meet as "women only" and as "men only"
    and there will be times to meet in "mixed groups."
         
    Bill

    Here is the text of the announcement of the next 
    lunch-time presentation of the men's forum:
    
    -------------------------------------------------
    
    LUNCH-TIME PRESENTATION OF SPIT BROOK MEN'S FORUM 

             "RECONNECTING WITH FATHER"

    To:  Men and Women who work at Spit Brook 
         -------------
 
    You are invited to attend a lunch time presentation of the 
    Spit Brook Men's Forum.  

    	When:  Monday, December 3, 1990, 12:00 noon
    	Where: Cauchy Conference Room, ZKO3-1
    	Who:   All Spit Brook residents (men and women)

    A videotape will be shown, followed by a discussion.  
    The half-hour videotape depicts the efforts of two people
    (a man and a woman) in their attempt to re-establish a 
    relationship with their respective fathers.

    This holiday time of year, with its emphasis on family
    gatherings, often aggravates strained relationships.
    Frequently, fathers are the less-accessible parent.

    This program and the ensuing discussion may help you in
    considering your relationship with your father (and for
    older men, your relationship with your children).

                 Bill Kohlbrenner, VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNER, 1-1303
    

   TO: ALL SPIT BROOK MEN AND WOMEN,

        *******************************************
               The Spit Brook Men's Forum
                       invites all           
              Spit Brook men and women to a
           viewing and discussion of a video on
         "Myths, Poetry and Connections Among Men"
               12 noon on February 25, 1991
              Babbage Conference Room, ZKO1-3
	*******************************************

       The Spit Brook Men's Forum invites all members of the 
    Spit Brook community to the screening of the third and 
    final segment of the Robert Bly/Michael Meade video, 
    "On Being a Man."  The subjects of the four excerpts will 
    include myth, poetry and grief.  An open discussion 
    facilitated by the forum members will follow the video. 

       This segment examines the ways in which men have coped 
    with the difficult emotions of grief, loss, vulnerability, 
    and identity conflict.  Bly and Meade discuss some of their 
    own experiences and quote the poetry of Yeats and Machado.  
    Through this material they provide a glimpse of different 
    cultural traditions, practices and values around these issues.

       Please bring your lunch and join us for this presentation.  
    Bring a friend or colleague along.

    ---------------    FORUM UPDATE  ------------------------

       The Men's Forum has continued to meet weekly in the past 
    two months.  The video, "Finding Your Father," was shown on 
    December 5 and drew an audience of men and women to Cauchy.  
    Small group discussions followed.  

       Various Men's Groups have begun meeting in recent months.

       Future programs of the Forum include poetry reading and 
    a discussion of men's roles in the workplace.  

                 FOR MORE INFORMATION, SEE 
          TOPIC 504 IN THE QUARK::MENNOTES NOTESFILE.
  

>There are also a number of women's groups at Spit Brook today whose existence
>is extremely low profile.

This seems to be changing.  At a group meeting yesterday, a woman came in to
give a talk about the women's groups.  It was actually a recruitment talk bny
the speaker's own admission.  The men had to sit there and listen to a 20 
minute talk about trying to sign up more women as members while being 
specifically told that men COULD NOT belong to such groups, basically that 
the idea of mixed groups was 'bad' (apparently only SOME mixed groups are bad), 
that these sort of groups were for support/nurturing/etc and was ok since men 
had  the 'old boy's network'.   Of course, that term was not used for the
women's groups set up.  

One man asked a question during a section on what gets discussed at such things
and if anyone had asked the opinion of anyone in a men's group (as to what good
topics might be); one women was heard to utter "Why should we, we already know 
what they are".  Basically, the entire talk was directed specifically at the 
women in the audience; there were several 'digs' (in my opinion) at men made.  
All of this was down under the Stone Center flag.

It would be interesting to see if men group's enjoy the same level of corporate
support that these women's groups do; including apparently the appearance of
such membership on performance reviews.

    <the men had to sit there>
    
    why didn't you walk out?

    in re my "why didn't you leave"
    
    That may have been a simplistic question. I will assume that management
    was there. ("group meeting") It seems to me that if in fact it was a
    recruitment session for women only, someone was kind of gauche in
    inviting the presenter to make her pitch when men would be there.
    
    I suggest as a first pass, you go through the chain of command with
    your observations. Perhaps you will get an "oops you're right" back and
    that will be the end of it.
    				herb
    
    p.s. Of course, there is an assumption that we are both making and that
    is that men should not be subjected to a recruitment talk that is only
    recruiting women.
    Some may not agree with that
    
    				herb

>    That may have been a simplistic question. I will assume that management
>    was there. ("group meeting") 

yes, management was there.

>    I suggest as a first pass, you go through the chain of command with
>    your observations. 

I am currently doing so.

-Joe

    
    I thought Wil Kohlbrenner had started a men's group up in ZK (or
    someone had).  For the purposes they choose, the purpose of a women's
    group may not be met by a mixed group.  Perhaps starting your own men's
    group would be a solution - if youwish a group started.
    
    If you wish I can share with you some of my training materials for
    becoming a facilitator- I have many on group process, although much of
    my material pertains to women in society, I'm sure there is material
    about there on men in society that could assist you in learning to
    facilitate a men's group.
    
    -Jody
    

 "Excuse me, but I have actual work to do."

>    I would have stood up and asked "why was I invited to this meeting?"

The meeting was a group meeting for the purposes of giving status about
the future of the group, workloads that could be expected, etc.  No one
that I know of was aware of the recruitment speech until the person
showed up (well, ok a couple of managers up top seemed to know).  And
since my boss and his boss were there....

	'The squeeky wheel gets the oil... or gets replaced'  :-).

    Sounds sexist to me. One group of people being singled out because they
    have external gens. Sounds like someone should Orange book em Dan'o!
    Did they play the marshal music and wear jack boots?