Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Knowing who you are is one data point --
    You can test your self knowledge with other men.
    
    And, to extend the original statement, you can learn what it's
    like to be a man among men -- that's different than self knowledge.
    
    					andrew

    I don't need to pay some self-proclaimed experts $500 and spend 3 days
    of my life in the company of strangers to find out what it means to be
    a man. 
    
    Bruce

    
    re .1
    
    hey mike, maybe you just think you know...
    
    you could be an android...;-)
    

    I have heard great things about the Sterling Institute - I know several
    women who attend their gatherings several times a year - women
    gatherings, mother-daughter gatherings, husband-wife gatherings.  It
    seems fairly expensive, but I suppose if they're getting wonderful
    lives as a result, it can work for people if they invest in it with
    their WHOLE selves, body, mind, etc....
    
    -Jody
    

    .0
    
    Yea.  Right.  And I bet there is sheep involved...   There was another
    note on this type of event in here somewhere.
    
    -db

>	I asked .1 because it seems that the only people who would have
>    a real need for the seminar would be men who were confused about
>    their identities or roles in life.  Men who are not able to accept
>    themselves the way they are without wondering if it's "right" or
>    "wrong".
>
>	I still think that's the case, and I'm not putting those men
>    down, I'm just making an observation.

C'mon, Mike.  If you've never participated, then how do you know so 
much about these men?

It can be a drag to get caught in the "sports and politics and
machinery" discussions that many groups of men tend to fall into. What
these workshops do is to open up a space in which men can talk about
things that they might have been thinking about but might have had a
hard time talking about (especially in mixed company).  Thoughts like,
"Is it just me, but...."  Some men like to talk about the pressure to
be the providers for the family.  Some men talk about how they get
tired of always having to be in competition with other men. Some men
talk about the difficulties/joys of their relationships with their
fathers and how that helped to shape the men they are today. 

And it is difficult to predict what these discussions bring about in 
men.  Some men feel comfort in that they weren't the only men 
wondering about certain things.  Some men feel that their perception 
of the male role is too rigid and it needs to change.  Some men get 
reinforcement for what they feel is already a good role.  I dunno.  It's 
different for different men.  All I can say is that most men who have 
taken part in these programs say that they enjoy it, that they learn 
about themselves and other men, and that they feel a weight lifted 
(the weight of being emotionally isolated from other men).  

Maybe it isn't as if these men are "confused" about their identity as 
men.  Maybe it's that they are open to the idea that there are still 
things to learn about men and masculinity, and that they might be able 
to expand their maleness into new areas.

As for the price, I can see where that would be inhibitive.  All I can 
say is that there are other opportunities that don't cost as much.  
Stay tuned.

							--Gerry

	re. 0  *male bonding*


	Personally I feel a lot more comfortable and relate better
	to men who spend a weekend hunting/fishing with the guys,
	or spend an afternoon at the sportsmens club. Or spend
	an evening a week playing cards/having a few beers/discussing
	and solving the political problems of the world, with men
	friends. 

	The idea of spending all that money for the purpose of
	*male bonding* with a bunch of strange men sounds strange
	to me.

	kits                                                                           

    
    	Kits, I love your notes...
    
    	I wish things like this weren't so damn expensive.
    	And it reminds me a bit of ol Werner Erhardt and his expensive
    	weekend of mind scrambling/reassembling in EST.
    	But then, now that "male bonding" is one of the latest trendy
    	things for men, I suppose someone has to teach what it is.
    	As for me, I hope to die without having "bonded" to anything
    	or anyone. By the same token, I always enjoy making friends
    	with both men and women.
    
    	I just had another thought....Would this be another in
    	the continuing saga of redefining the modern male?
    	I guess I'll have to leave it at that as I don't have
    	the money to find out.
    
    							Hank

    A friend of mine has been to one of these "Sterling" weekends before,
    I'll see if I can persuade him to enter a note on it.  He doesn't talk
    much about it, but I never before got the impression that it was about
    'men with other men'...rather, it was more about examining values, or
    figuring out why one acts the way one does.  Hank, the comparison to
    EST is probably not too far off in terms of the goals; but as for the
    techniques used, who knows?  I think the Sterling people make you sign
    an agreement never to disclose their methods.  This friend of mine took
    their seminar years ago, and the fact that they're still in business
    means they're either getting good referrals or they've got a heck of a
    good marketing program.
    
    DougO

>    	And it reminds me a bit of ol Werner Erhardt and his expensive
>    	weekend of mind scrambling/reassembling in EST.
 

	I remember attending a seminar by Werner in Boston many
	years ago. He was enlisting people to sign up for EST.
	
	I could not believe my ears when he told everyone that
	they would not be allowed to leave the room to go to
	the bathroom without his permission.  When he was talking
	about the whys and wherefores....I looked around..and
	said to myself "Self..what in the hell are you doing
	here.....Self....get the hell out of here and live
	your life the way you want to live it...ain't no
	one going to control you  like that".  So, I picked
	myself up off the chair, and walked out while he
	was still preaching.

	And...the money these people rake in trying to rape
	the brains and minds of people is astounding.


	kits
	

    
    	P.T. Barnum was right :-}
    
    
    Paul C.

    I haven't been to one of these, but I talked to a guy who has.
    
    The impression that I came away with was that it was much more
    slanted at telling you how to relate to women (as men) than 
    telling you how to relate to other men.  Kind of "how you can 
    stop getting pushed around and manipulated by your mother, your
    sister, your aunt, your girlfriend, your wife.  How to be the
    man that every *real* woman wants."   Maybe I heard it wrong?
    
    The other thing that I heard is that after you "graduate" you 
    are heavily pressured to sign up others for future sessions.
    Which explains why it keeps going, year after year.
    
    My ex-woman-friend went to the women's version, and that was
    just like the men's.  That was definitely a case of "how to be
    the woman that every *real* man wants."  And it sounded very
    manipulative.  Long periods of waiting in a crowded room, infor-
    mation withheld, abusive statements, then a lot of crowd behavior,
    shouting, etc.
    
    Both the men's sessions and the women's sessions form smaller
    follow-on groups that meet periodically to help each other to
    continue the work that is started at the session.  These groups
    are geographically located to make it easy for members to attend.
     
    But there are a lot of people of both sexes who claim it has changed
    their life.  If you're in a bad place and it puts you in a better
    place, then maybe it's worth looking into?
    
    Justin Sterling is quite a character, I hear.  He seems to bring out
    the extremes of emotions in people.  Extremes that you maybe didn't 
    know that you had...
    
    Bill

    Re: several back
    
    I talk with my wife about such things as "is it just me?", the
    competitive business world, the difficulties about being a provider,
    etc. 
    
    Maybe that's one reason why I don't feel the need to talk with a group
    of strangers.
    
    Bruce

    re .14, Bingo!  My friend and some other people I met through him,
    who've taken a Sterling weekend, all used that phrase- "it changes
    your life!"
    
    DougO

>	Personally I feel a lot more comfortable and relate better
>	to men who spend a weekend hunting/fishing with the guys,
>	or spend an afternoon at the sportsmens club. Or spend
>	an evening a week playing cards/having a few beers/discussing
>	and solving the political problems of the world, with men
>	friends. 

Some men who go to these things like to hunt, fish, and talk sports, 
too.  Seriously.

It's just a way to expand the relationships that they have with men 
beyond what takes place when hunting, fishing, and sports.

I guess I'm sensitive to this because I love touchy-feely seminars, 
and I love basketball and the Celtics.  In the touchy-feely seminars, 
I hear people talk down about sports and sports fans.  When talking to 
sports fans, I hear people talk down about touchy feely seminars.  I 
wish it didn't have to be so either/or.

							--Gerry

    Baits, baits, and more baits, and still more fish that get ripped while
    the organization gets richer! Ja, ja, ha,
    

    It never ceases to amaze me just what people will spend money on.

    In any case...I'm not clear as to exactly what the "bottom line" is of
    this "gathering" is.  

    Given that you are at a cocktail party (or an "electronic" cocktail
    party, like VAX Notes) and there are two discussion groups: (1) is
    discussing the upcoming NFL season (that's where I'll be) and (2) is
    discussing the effect of the Judeo Christian ethic on French art in the
    1800s...is this supposed to make me want to join (assuming *men* only
    are involved in this discussion) conversation #2?

    Tell ya' what...send me $100, I'll send you my phone number, you can
    ring me up, and, we'll talk about anything you want!  Better yet, make
    it $99.95 ... that has a better "ring" to it...

    Unreal.

    I've been to a men's workshop (not run by this group) and I got
    a lot out of the experience.  I can't say anything about the
    merits of this one, but I am rather disappointed by all the
    disparaging remarks from people who have never been to a
    workshop in their life and who have zero knowledge of this one.
    
    You (personally) might think it's worthless, you (personally)
    might think it's a scam, and in fact for you those opinions
    may be true...although if you haven't been to the workshop I
    think your judgement may be a little hasty.  Workshops aren't
    for everybody, and a given workshop isn't for everybody.  Just
    because it's not the right thing for you though does't mean it's
    not right for somebody else.

      I went to a Coffee Hour in which about 15 men who had
    attended one of these seminars tried to enlist other men to go.  The
    seminar was held on a weekend, in a high school gym.  No meals were
    included, no  hotel, no materials (workbook, handouts), no objectives
    were established for the workshop.  Worst of all, no attendee could
    tell you what happened during the weekend, i.e. methods, topics of
    discussion, etc.  The only thing I could find out was that it made you
    a better man (whatever that means).
    
    I am a training professional, having spend about 20 years in the
    training industry.  Every training workshop worth its salt has
    established and published objectives, methods and materials.  A good
    rule of thumb is that you should pay anywhere from $125 to $200 per day
    (that usually includes meals).
    
    2 years ago the American Society for Training and Development did an
    expose of these trendy, pseudo-psychological seminars, pretty much
    labelling them as "content free".
    
    My bottom line: Be suspicious of all seminars that will not tell you in
    very concrete and clear terms what their training outcomes are , 
    what methods they use, what is contained in them, and what your fee 
    covers.  Oaths of secrecy and pressure for you to enroll others are
    real earmarks in my mind of something fishy.  Reputable training
    seminars and companies observe very professional business ethics.
    
    
    

    OOPS! I omitted a work.  The Coffee Hour I attended was not for the
    Sterling Training, but a similar type seminar just for men.
    
    

I think that the criticisms that people are making about low quality 
for high prices is criticism to pay attention to.  I think that there 
are men's groups and men's seminars that are much less expensive (some 
are free; some are or will be run at Digital) and possibly much more 
effective.

I agree that it pays to be a careful shopper.  I also agree that the 
automatic dismissals from people who have never gone are very 
discouraging, especially since some men have gotten an aweful lot out 
of some (not all) workshops.


							--Ger

    I've been amused and annoyed at some writeups that I have
    seen in newpapers/magazines of workshops for men.  I've was
    even at a couple of the workshops that got "written up."
    
    The reporter (male) who did the story came for one day of
    a two day workshop, or even part of one day and then did
    his story.  He clearly came for the story, it was an assignment,
    and as soon as he had enough to do the story, he left.
    
    It must be hard for a man to understand and write about
    a workshop that involves a lot of thinking and feeling about
    what it is to be a man, without feeling that it is a
    personal challenge to him.  The writeups always end up with
    the reporter saying something like,  "Well, some interesting
    things were being said, but I was happy to get home, open 
    a Bud and catch the end of the _______ game on the tube."
    
    Of course, many of the workshop participants also went home,
    popped a Bud and caught some other game on the tube.
    
    Different folks, different strokes.
    
    Bill

    	I agree with the General on this one. Send me $98.95 and I'll let
    you rattle on for awhile and you can scream, cry, giggle .....
    
    	I see this sh!t as another way for some guy/gal to get a bunch of
    yuppies to part with their money. People who talk others into these
    seminars do it to reinforce to themselves that they didn't waste $500
    and if they can get a few people to go, they feel that it was worth it.
    
    	Remeber: No seminar you paid $500 for is going to let you walk away
    feeling like you wasted your money. If they do, they won't be in
    business very long. Also, you won't admit to being taken for $500 so of
    course it's a great seminar......I'm quite sure that there's a
    tremendous effort to uplift emotions for the final 2-3 hours before
    departing the seminar....after all, who wants to walk away down??
    
    	Want to get in touch with yourself?? Talk a walk by yourself on a
    beach. Hike up a mountain trail alone. Sit in a field by yourself. Do
    it for a couple of hours and don't have an appointment on the other
    end. Watch some ants work, get some field glasses and watch some birds.
    Watch some kids play basketball or baseball or skip rope or play games.
    Get in touch with the world and you'll find yourself getting in touch
    with you.
    
    Ken
    	  

    
>    	Want to get in touch with yourself?? Talk a walk by yourself on a
>    beach. Hike up a mountain trail alone. Sit in a field by yourself. Do
>    it for a couple of hours and don't have an appointment on the other
>    end. Watch some ants work, get some field glasses and watch some birds.
>    Watch some kids play basketball or baseball or skip rope or play games.
>    Get in touch with the world and you'll find yourself getting in touch
>    with you.
    
"Isolate.  Isolate.  Isolate."

Sometimes, yes.  But not as rule or as a way of life.  I'd rather 
connect, share, and relate.


						--Ger    	  

I have to agree with several - sounds like a crock. Personally, I hate
touchy-feely seminars. I've been to several - all sponsered by DEC.
The first time I went to one my response was "Oh, $H!+, what the hell
did I get myself in for?". The next few times it was "Damn! Suckered
into another one without my apriori knowledge." Don't like 'em at all.
My feeling is always "Hey - I want to be left alone. That's my difference.
Can you value that? Get out of my damned head and stop trying to play
these mind games with me."

A friend of mine who's a sociologist states it quite clearly. She says
if I gave a damn about these people at the seminars to begin with it
would be one thing, but it grates aginst many peoples' nature to open
their heads up to a bunch of total strangers. Makes sense to me.

-Jack

    I went to one here at DEC. It was a self examination one. I came away
    with a realization of a couple of things which I didn't see the
    relationship of before. It was a 'take charge, you can do anything' sort
    of seminar. The only trouble was that that I realized that I had
    already done this years ago in quiting smoking, learning to ride a
    unicycle, advancing my career, etc. But I also came away realizing that
    in a couple of instances in my life I had run into walls doing this and
    this caused me to realize anger at these situations that I could not
    change. One of these is history, one is present day. I think, on
    average, it was for me a neutral or slightly negative thing for me.
    
    One mans opinion
    
    Steve ( I would not have gone to this course on my own unless DEC.....)

Why do those who don't feel a personal need for these kinds of seminars
seem so eager to denigrate those who think they may be useful?  If you
don't want to go to one, don't go.  It's quite simple.  There's no need
for name-calling.

				Steve

I guess I can't personally respond re: denigration and name calling charges,
Steve, but the topic appeared to be open for general discussion and evaluation.
Is this not a forum for that type of exchange?

-Jack

    Re: .30
    
    Certainly it is.  It just seemed to me that some of the
    participants here were saying that just because THEY wouldn't
    be caught dead in one of these seminars, that no other man should
    be either.
    
    				Steve

To me statements like that broadcast narrowmindedness and insecurity.

Just because they don't think it's "cool" doesn't mean that someone else
won't benefit from it.

Many times people condemn that which they don't like or understand because
they feel it boosts their ego......makes them more confident...gives them
reaffirmation that what they feel is "right."

Why can't people just say, "it's not for me" and leave it at that?  I'll
never know.


kath

	I had an invitation to a Sterling Institute weekend.  I turned it
    down because it didn't sound like it was for me.

	I went to another men's gathering, though.  The speakers were poet
    Robert Bly, Jungian psychologist and author James Hillman, and
    psychologist Michael Meade, also a Jungian who does a lot of work with
    myths and what is often called rhythmic expression -- in this case
    drumming.  I was one of about 700 men in a single room.  It changed my
    life in the sense that I walked away from the workshop knowing some new
    facts, and having learned some new ways of looking at some things I
    have experienced.  One important thing I learned was the role that an
    adult male friend played in my growing up, which I had never been able
    to verbalize.  I always wanted to thank him, and now I know what for.

	I'm not much for touchy-feely stuff myself with people I don't
    know, and I didn't find this gathering objectionable on that score.  I
    had the impression that some of the men there *were* disappointed about
    that.  Also some of them wanted to do a lot more processing and
    analyzing and agonizing than there was time for, given the number of
    men present.  The speakers/facilitators were good at keeping them under
    control and moving along.  At times, participants were invited at
    random to comment on something in their own lives which reflected some
    point or other made by one of the speakers.  On more than one occasion,
    I found myself saying, "Yeah, I never thought about it that way, but I
    know what he means."  It's sort of like brainstorming -- a lot of what
    you hear is dreck, but new ideas or ways of looking at things keep
    popping up.  I'll probably go to another one some time, but it probably
    won't be soon -- this one gave me enough to think about for months.

	I have no issue with people who aren't interested in this kind of
    gathering.  I also have no issue with people who have a solid handle on
    "what it means (to them) to be a man" -- I haven't quite figured out
    the question yet, much less the answer.  I'm still working on it.  But,
    to the ones who replied to this note by saying "Hey, pay me the $500
    and call me up and we'll talk about anything you want!" I can only
    reply by saying you'd be the last people I'd want to talk to about
    anything important.  Nothing of interest ever comes from a closed mind.

    Re  .33
    
    I learned a lot too.  I am replying to this at length in the new topic I
    started in 505.  Please see 505.2 ...
    
    Thanks,
    Paul