Conference quark::mennotes-v1

It will be interesting to me to see why these numbers don't correlate
with what I see in my day-to-day life, including the heterosexual
numbers (just this week in "Parade" magazine, there is a report on the
rising percentage of infidelity by wives).  I could be that I am not
seeing things clearly. 

It could also be that there were some factors in the polling that are not 
publicized.  For instance, if I polled only people in the South End of 
Boston, I would probably find 50-60% of the people living exclusively
homosexual lifestyles.

Also, I'm not really tied to the "10% gay" belief.  It wouldn't 
surprise me if the number were lower.  However, 1% is ridiculously 
low, in my experience.  1% exclusively gay in their "lifetime" would 
make more sense to me, since a lot of gay people have had some 
experience with members of the opposite sex.

If it is true that only 1% of us are exclusively homosexual, then,
according to my experience, there must be an awful lot of bisexuality
going on around here (and therefore those numbers on exclusive
heterosexual behavior are way off). 

What are other people's experience?


						--Gerry

	It's sort of hard to know based on just the people you know. Different
	people hang around with different people who are open in different
	ways. Based only on people that I know and know their sexual orientation
	1% homosexual would seen very high. You can imagine how I feel about
	10%. Still I've been around the social sciences enough to know that
	my first hand experiance is somewhat limited. I'd never try and
	judge numbers that way. I've been surprised to find out friends were
	homosexuals before and I expect it will happen again. Are 10% of the
	people I know gay? How would I know? Should I care? Why?

	The problem with all of these surveys is that the way the question
	is asked has a lot to do with the way they come out. Also how people
	interprit their own experiances. For example, if someone once grabbed
	a man below the waist did he have a homosexual encounter? Pretty hard
	to say. It could have been an accident. Yet someone could say that
	it was a homosexual experince if they wanted to act with so little
	knowledge of the actual event and intent. That's an extreme of course
	but you get the picture.

	Location of the polls could also be a factor. It appears that
	homosexuality is more common in urban areas. At least people in
	urban areas are moe willing to admit it. If a good balance of
	types of areas ae not represented then the figures could be off
	one way or an other.

	RE: The bisexual issue. I suspect, based only on what I read, that
	most homosexual people who have had relations with the opposite sex
	had it before they decided that they were really gay. Decided is
	probably not the right word. Perhaps came to the realization once
	and for all that they were gay. A better way to tell would be to ask
	people if they've had sexual relations with same sex or other sex
	people since they became firm in the knowledge of their orientation.
	
			Alfred

    The figures reported in yesterday's Gazette-Telegraph are:

    	91-93%	exclusively heterosexual throughout their adult lives
    	5-6% 	bisexual
    	<1%	exclusively homosexual
    	3%	never had sex

    Note that those figures reflect reported sexual behavior over a
    lifetime, not sexual orientation.

    -- Mike

    Clearly it would be of interest to know how and from what slice
    of the whole population was the data for this study gathered ...

    Also Alfred notes - how do we know who around us has had any
    homosexual activity during the year just past.   It would
    be interesting to know the percentage of reported fidelity
    of married couples - and of non-married couples ...  Based
    only on what seems to be the case among casual acquaintances
    serial monogamous among couples seems to be the strong trend.

    Fear of AIDS has driven people away from casual affairs while
    other social trends have people being social more at home and
    a down-scale in relative affluence tends to keep couples close
    to home.  The isn't as much talk about "open" marriages either.

  ~--e--~  Eagles_see_only_heterosexuals_without_regular_partners_seeking

The one percent "exclusively homosexual in a lifetime" figure doesn't 
bother me.  For instance, I have not been exclusively homosexual 
throughout my lifetime, and I am very, very gay.  :-)  In fact, these 
are the figures that Kinsey came up with, and his "exclusive in 
lifetime" figures are close to the one in the current study:

	33%   Had one sexual encounter in their lifetime with another man 
	      that ended in climax.  This includes childhood 
	      experimentation and "foolin' around with the guys."

	10%   Have lived exclusively homosexual lifestyles for at
	      least two years of their lives.

	4%    (This number may be off, but it's close.)  Exclusively
	      homosexual throughout their lives, never having had a
	      heterosexual contact.

So, the 1% lines up with the 4% okay with me.  We can be safe and say 
"well under 5%."


>    	91-93%	exclusively heterosexual throughout their adult lives
>    	5-6% 	bisexual

It's these figures that don't add up to me.  The Kinsey study implies 
that 66% of the men were exclusively heterosexual throughout their 
lives, and 90% were heterosexual with the exception of some 
experimentation.

This is where I am coming from: 

	o  Keep in mind that you cannot visibly spot gay people, so
	   you don't know how many are around you.  You also can't
	   spot the ones who have experimented with gay sex.

	o  During a one week period, count the
	   number of people who show up at the gay and lesbian bars, 
	   who linger in the highway rest areas, who fool around in 
	   porno theaters, who frequent parks where gay men meet, who
	   have same-sex sex because of lack of opposite-sex partners
	   (prisons, certain circumstances in the military, and so
	   forth), all the memberships of the gay organizations,
	   and all the gay people who are not connected to the bars 
	   or to the gay community.

	o  Add in all the boys who play with each other before
	   puberty or shortly after.

	o  Add the fact that my roommate put in a personal ad, 
	   and 50% of the responses (6 of twelve) were from
	   married men.   Other gay men I've met have had 
	   similar experiences.

	o  Add in all the "I was so drunk, I don't remember what
	   I did" stories that almost every gay man has, about
	   the heterosexual friend who experimented and then
	   denied it.

After checking out all this activity, I can't conclude anything other 
than that 93% exclusive heterosexual number is bull.  The numbers 
don't add up.

The 93% number _does_ add up with Kinsey's number of people who are 
primarily heterosexual with maybe some fooling around thrown in 
(Kinsey actually said 90%).

It all depends on how the question was worded and what people think 
"exclusive heterosexuality" means.  If they think it means, "Have you 
ever had a boyfriend?" or "Are you queer?" then the survey will miss 
an awful lot of homosexual activity.  For instance, there are reports 
coming out of Brazil and out of a lot of Hispanic communities that it 
is very difficult to educate about "gay" or "homosexual" ways of 
spreading AIDS, because these guys think that messing around with 
their buddies is not "gay" or "homosexual"; the culture allows "making 
due until there are women around," but it doesn't define that activity 
in the same way as other cultures.

Also, I think it is a good idea for me to keep in mind that this 
survey was not a survey on homosexuality.  These gay numbers are just 
a part of a broad based survey on human sexuality.

Just thinking....

							--Ger

    These studies were controversial from a number of different aspects, 
    among them the equally astonishing low sexual frequency of
    heterosexuals.
    
    One good result may be that many more studies will be done, in order
    to either verify, or refute, these studies, and we will learn more.
    
    -roger
    
    

    Was this the same study that claimed to have found that the
    average couple is only having sex about 50 times a year (or once a
    week)?  
    
    --bonnie

    Ger--maybe the numbers seem skewed because the wording was "...during
    their adult lives..."
    
    Which would preclude any "young and foolish" experimentation, which,
    if I remember correctly, what was Kinsey *included* in his studies.
    
    ---kim

>    Ger--maybe the numbers seem skewed because the wording was "...during
>    their adult lives..."
>    
>    Which would preclude any "young and foolish" experimentation, which,
>    if I remember correctly, what was Kinsey *included* in his studies.
    
Yep, this makes sense to me.  If you say "21 and up," that eliminates 
a lot of experimentation, including the heterosexual phase I went 
through.  ;-)   


							--Ger

re: 416.0 

Statistics and surveys ... aren't they a wonder ??
    
>A further breakdown of the figures on sexual orientation found that
>less than 1 percent of adults have been exclusively homosexual.

Not surprising, considering (according to some literature), such
as gaynotes, Lenny Bruce, and "Jason". Many gays don't discover that
until later  in life (like Lesbians). Obviously, all men who have had 
as little  as  ONE  heterosexual experience would be excluded from thios
question.
    
>(The General Social Survey at the University of Chicago, funded by
>the National Science Foundation)

Well, well,  Who  is  the National Science Foundation.  Is this the same
National Science Foundation, which is funded by the US Government, whose
"official position" on gay sexuality is well documented?

Well, yes, it is sarcasm.

What is "The General Social Survey at the University of Chicago"
                                  ~~~~~~

Was this survey one taken AT the U of C, as stated, amongst the general
student population, or taken of the ROTC students at the U of C ?  

Without specific knowledge about who took the survey, how can we know
the validity of the  results ?

I mean, if we  took a general survey of the people in ZKO, we might get
the impression "most" of DEC employees are programmers ?

Just asking ... noone asked me ...

Bob

	
There is a point that Bob made in .10 that is important in interpreting 
the results of a lot of "studies": namely, how the population for the 
study is selected.

Unlike polls, which select their populations at random, studies depend
upon the people willing to participate in them. 

The mere (or not-so-mere) fact that a person is willing - in some
cases actually goes out of his/her way to volunteer - to answer what, to 
many people are some very, very personal questions tells a lot about the 
person and his/her personality traits.  This, in turn, may skew the results 
of a study.

The Kinsey Report findings may have been influenced by this factor. Those 
people who were willing to *volunteer* information about their sexual
orientation (or extra-marital affairs, masturbation frequency, etc.) may
not have been representative of the general population.

  Alan

You know what I would love to be able to do?  I would love to be able 
to count the number of lesbian and gay people in my highschool class.  
That is a sampling of 200 people who are different genders, different 
religions, and have different backgrounds (except for geography).

I know of 4 people in my class who are living gay lifestyles.  I am 
not in touch with most of my classmates.

There's 2%.  I'm sure it's higher than that.  Between 5 and 10% is my 
best guestimate.

							--Ger