Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    "'Go to hell' or other insult direct is all the answer
    a snoopy question deserves."
    
    R.A. Heinlein
    
    Tell the cop to be suspicious all he wants, but make sure
    to ask for *his* name and badge number, and inform him
    that his superiors will be hearing from you.
    
    Then again, my attitude would probably screw me in Europe.
    
    Dana (unabashed American chauvinist)
    

    I wouldn't like it if this happened to me.
    
    I would want to complain but weighing the grief and aggravation of
    buracracy(sp), I probably not bother.  I'd try to be prepared with
    something witty to say if it happended again.
    
    Was this discrimination?  I think so.

    
    If I were you, and it could have been since I get off at the same
    point in town (from the coach that is), I'd ring the local police
    station straight away.
    
    I can't see how the British police can expect to get away with this
    kind of crap much longer.
    
    Ian.

    	Since this was directly connected with a DEC organised activity you
    might be able to interest your local personnel department in making
    the complaint.

    Well i phoned the station yesterday afternoon and spoke to the duty
    sergeant.  He as i expected didnt see the problem and insisted that the
    officer was only doing his job.  I agreed with him but made the point
    that i was only ringing to inform of the reason for my being there and
    also of the fact that until a few weeks ago i lived just down the road
    from there.  I assured me that i hadnt been singled out in any
    investigation.
    
    I pointed out ot him the fact that if those toilets had a "reputation"
    surely you would have to be of that persuasion to know that in the
    first place. 
    
    I will certainly be steering clear in the future!!!!!!
    
    He also agreed that these were most unfortunate circumstances and asked
    whether we could get the bus to stop elsewhere!!
    
    What do you lot think!!
    
    Russ

You mention you have just bought a house which in pragmatic political terms
allows you to get a little pushy.

First find out who your local councillor[s] are and get in touch with them. Find 
out which councillors are on the Watch Committee (for our American readers the
Watch Committee oversees the police department), then write a letter explaining
the circumstances, and saying that (a) you believe that the policeman was
overplaying his authority in this matter, (b) you want to be assured that your
name has *not* been entered on the PNC (Police National Computer) in respect
of this matter.

Send it to all members of the Watch Committee and also to the Chief Constable.

I would also suggest to your councillor that if this public convenience has such 
an unsavoury reputation it would be better to close it, rather than harass 
innocent members of the public who happen to use it as the convenience it is 
intended to be.

I suspect however that it isn't worth starting an official complaint against the 
officer through the Police Grievances procedure, since I am sure they will say 
that he was only doing his duty (assuming the place really does have an 
unsavoury reputation.


/. Ian .\

    
    Being a resident of the town in question, I can vouch for the fact
    that the public convenience in question does have a slight reputation
    for certain events.                                  
    
    This does not mean however, that the police can pounce upon anyone
    who uses those facilities.
    
    It comes down to the fact that you're guilty until proven innocent.
    
    

This kind of thing happens a lot in the states, too.  Try sitting in 
your car in some rest areas on American highways and see if you don't 
get a policeman asking you why you are "loitering"?

>You mention you have just bought a house which in pragmatic political terms
>allows you to get a little pushy.

Interesting.  If the same thing had happened to me, I would not, in
"pragmatic political terms," have any recourse to "get a little
pushy."  Since I am gay and did not just buy a house with my
girlfriend, does that mean that the policeman would have more of a
right to harrass me for going to the bathroom in a tea room (gay slang
for "a bathroom in which men fool around")? 

Sometimes it gets confusing to tell just what the crime is: being gay 
or being in a "gay" place or fooling around in public?  Personally 
speaking, I would like for the police to stay focused on the fact that 
"fooling around in public" is the crime, not being seen in a "gay" 
place.  Know what I mean?

Just trying to think about this from my perspective....

							--Ger

    
    I'm wondering about something. What is the law regarding "public
    homosexual activity" in the place where this occured. Is it a
    misdeamenor? Punishable by fine, jail term? Or more of a "hey cut that
    out and move along, fellas" kinda thing?
    
    For that matter, what is the law in the states?

Soliciting (for homosexual purposes) carries a potential lengthy jail term.

However the thing that is scary here is that the police gather this data for the
"jotter" at the police station. If that were all then there would be nothing 
(much) to worry about. *BUT* they (the Crime Prevention Officer) routinely enter 
the statistics log from the jotter onto the national computer. Hence if you have 
your name taken in this way you are *very* likely to wind up in the situation 
that in future if another cop checks the PNC to see "if anything is known" about 
you - perhaps having stopped you for a traffic violation, then you will show up 
as "being known to frequent homosexual haunts", and that might just leave you 
with a lot of explaining to do...

So in the vein of the original note: is it harassment? probably not. Is it 
something you should do something about? in my opinion YES.

/. Ian .\

    Interesting that people think either that the policeman was just doing
    his duty, or that that will be a sufficient defence. While the enquiry
    in the first place as to your purpose there may have been justified,
    the remark that if he caught you there again he would be suspicious
    is quite outrageous, in my opinion. If it were me, I would feel
    obliged to write in the strongest terms to the chief constable,
    my local councillor, and/or my MP (Member of Parliament) about the
    matter.
       
    Others concerns over your name appearing on the PNC, I think, are
    probably quite justified. In general, I do think 'our policemen are
    wonderful', but that doesn't give them the right to make insinuations
    about innocent members of the public, nor potentially to allow
    information gained in such a way to allow others to share their
    insinuations.
       
    Rambled a bit, sorry, but I don't think you should let this go.
       
    PDB

    This question is interesting from more than one perspective.  I'm not
    gay, and the only reason I say that is to indicate that I'm not being
    defensive.  I see the issue as an officer violating your privacy
    without good cause.  It would not have been acceptable behavior on his
    part even if you WERE gay.  I'm an American but definitely not a
    gung-ho chauvinist.  I do think, though, that a version of our Bill of
    Rights is long overdue in Britain and most other countries. Some things
    are too important to leave to the "good will" of a government or ruler.
    Sure, there are abuses over here as well, but there is some comfort in
    the knowledge that explicit rights are written down.  That police
    computer system sounds like it's just begging for regulation to
    prevent its abuse.
    
    Tony
        

    I think it was harrassment.
    
    We are being told continuously in this country that policemen are
    overworked, underpaid and their resources are stretched beyond sensible
    limits.
    
    Did this policemen really think he was going to reduce the number
    of unsolved crimes by picking on someone who just happened to want
    to go to the toilet in the wrong place at the wrong time?
                                                            
    
    andy
    

    
>>    of unsolved crimes by picking on someone who just happened to want
>>    to go to the toilet in the wrong place at the wrong time?
    
      How can going to the toilet in a public convenience be 'the wrong
      place at the wrong time' ?
    
      That's what they're there for.
    
      I understand what you mean though, he was unluck to go to the loo
      when the police are out to hastle people.  
    
      If the police catch people playing with each other in a public
      toilet, then that's fair game.  But to harass someone for walking out
      of one, with no evidence what so ever, then that is going a little too 
      far.