Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I haven't checked yet, but I hope you also asked in WOMANNOTES why
    a married woman would cheat on her husband.  It happens just as
    often.
    
    Personally, I have no idea why anyone would do something like this,
    but that's me.
    
    See also the HUMAN_RELATIONS topics 57, 65 and 665.
    
    				Steve

    For a lot of men, it's as much the "thrill of the chase" as the
    actual conquest. That's why when a married man gets caught cheating,
    to him it really is "nothing". Women have come a long way, but
    they still dont understand the difference between lust and love,
    from a man's perspective.
    
                            Jim
    

There are a multitude of reasons why a married man would cheat on his wife.
Here are a few that I've heard.

 1. My wife is frigid.
 2. I have a higher sex drive than she does.
 3. Sex with my wife is so boring. 
    a) sometimes a man has sexual fantasies which he is afraid to share with
       his wife. By acting out these fantasies with another woman, he is
       sexually satisfied without risking rejection from the one he loves most
    b) sometimes a man has talked about a certain fantasy only to find his wife 
       unwilling to engage in it
 4. the thrill of the chase
 5. proving to yourself that you still "have it"
 6. getting back at past infidelities of your spouse (or just trying to hurt
    her)
 7. the "other woman" is someone you always wanted to get naked with
 8. lapse of judgement brought on by intoxication
 9. flirting that got out of control- you start flirting with a woman, fairly
    innocently. Next thing you know, she agrees to a tryst. Not wanting to
    seem like less of a man, you agree because you feel it's expected of you,
    even though you don't really want to.
10. an erection has no conscience

the list goes on...

 The Doctah

    
    I hate to waste disk space but I can't imagine why either.
    I personally just couldn't do it. But I am old fashioned and
    strangely enough, take our wedding vows seriously. I feel
    I gave my word to be faithful at our wedding. And to renege on
    that would be personally devastating because then I'd be a man
    without honor. 
    
    						Hank

    When I was not married, I had two long time girlfriends.  1 for
    4 years and 1 for 5 years.  I was not faithful to either of them.
    Why?  It was the chase and the intrigue of someone new.  
    
    I am now married and have been for four years.  I have never been
    tempted to cheat on my wife.  I also feel bad about what I had done
    in the past.  I have come to the realization (After someone told
    this to me)  that a great lover is someone who can make love to
    the same person for the rest of their lives.  I agree with Hank,
    it is a matter of honor and and a sure sign of strength to be faithful 
    to your spouse.  The easy way out is to run away when the going
    gets tough.  
    
                                                My thoughts,
    
                                                Mikef

    
    
    	Another question: 
    
    		Is that as easy/simple as you make it sound?  I mean,
    	I pride myself on always doing the right thing but, sometimes
    	I wonder about it or mentally snap myself out of the idea...I've
    	been successful thus far...It's just the fact that I might even
    	consider it....
    
    			-DMG 

    
    	I meant to say "AND mentally snap myself out of it..."
    
    
    		(So much for my typing skills...:-)
    
    			- DMG

    Everytime this discussion surfaces I am amazed at the intensity
    of feeling.
    
    I have always said that in reality the idea is enticing.
    
    For those that resist I commend them.
    
    But for those that succumb I do not judge them anymore than someone
    that cheats on their income tax.

 I have been married for 2.5 years. I have never had occasion to cheat on my
wife, although I have been tempted more than once. I know her feelings on 
the matter, and I know how I would feel, so I try to keep myself out of trouble.
I'd like to say I'd never, because I feel that way now, but I cannot predict
my future feelings. I have never cheated on any woman in any relationship.

 I sometimes wonder if my lack of a great  number of sexual partners contributes
to the feelings I sometimes have to explore new horizons (how's that for a
euphemism?). I have tended to stick with longer term relationships, as opposed
to the one night stands.

 There is a bit of an allure to get naked with different women sometimes, but
I cannot reconcile the fleeting pleasures I'd get with the pain my wife would
receive. She has made it very clear how she would feel, and I know I'd be both
devastated and furious if it were done to me, so I don't think I'll ever cheat.
I treat my wife the way I want her to treat me. Isn't that the way it's supposed
to be?

 The Doctah 

    Suppose a couple got married and sat down and talked about goals.
    They decided that the most important thing to *them* was to save
    for a house.  The strategy they would use would be to place the
    money they saved in a savings account and the would never use it
    until they both agreed.
    
    One of the partners fell prey to a shyster who convinced them that
    they, could earn twice as much interest if the money was invested in
    another plan.  The partner made a decision, acted on it without
    consulting the other.
    
    The plan failed, the other partner found out, they were devasted.
    
    Why did that marriage partner go against their vows?
    
    Is it worse, the same as we are discussing.  Is it grounds for divorce.
    
    To me it is despicable....I would divorce a man in a heartbeat that
    did that to me. 

    
    	To answer the question posed in .6
    	"Is that as easy as it sounds?"
    
    	Thats a good question. For me it kind of is that easy though.
    	You see, I'm not exactly a bundle of self confidence
    	and often times I don't have a whole lot of self esteem.
    	There are a lot of personal problems that I've been working
    	out and a lot I have yet to confront. But the one thing I
    	do have in my control (and mine alone) is my personal sense
    	of honor. And if nothing else, I am quite determined to
    	hang on to it til my grave. I think if I lost it I'd have
    	lost my dignity, and my self respect. 
    
    							Hank 
    

Re: .6

No, it is NOT as easy as it sounds.  And the problem can sneak up on you
without your being aware of it.  But once you are aware, you must make
a conscious decision - for me, the excuse of "it just happened" isn't
good enough.  But I am harder on myself than I am on others.

				Steve

>    One of the partners fell prey to a shyster who convinced them that
>    they, could earn twice as much interest if the money was invested in
>    another plan.  The partner made a decision, acted on it without
>    consulting the other.
    
>    The plan failed, the other partner found out, they were devasted.
    
>    Why did that marriage partner go against their vows?
    
>    Is it worse, the same as we are discussing.  Is it grounds for divorce.
 
 It is different. While it may be said that the partner was trying to help them 
out by attempting to get a better return on investment, it cannot be said that
someone who fools around is doing it in anybody's best interest but their own.
While it may be wrong to invest commonly held money without consent, it is not
as bad because the intent was to make things better for both parties. The same
is not true when one partner is unfaithful. That partner is only looking out
for him/herself.

 The Doctah

    Notion that marital fidelity = sexual fedelity cultural,
    
    Semantic content of term "sexual fidelity" is about the same as
    "meaningful relationship" e.g.  polite noises
    
    Suspect some strong survival (evolutionary, NOT
    wifekillshuzbandwithrollingpin) value in sexual exclusivity i.e.
    mates that "pair" for life leave more offspring? 
    
    so, vestigal instinct + heavy duty ego + plus lo self esteem = "if
    you're not exclusively available to me f*ckit" mentality
    
    Definitely not sex-linked as are just as many Wives/Husbands on
    both ends of the "horns"
    
    P.S. if had doubts about evolution working, they would be put to
         rest after perrusing the musings of all you Phil Donahue types
         out their ;-{)

    
    
     If anyone is interested in reading more on the subject of marital
    relationships, I recommend two books.
    
    "Intimate Partners" by Maggie Scarf has alot to say regarding why
    people go outside of their marriage. Really interesting and pretty
    readable.
    
    "Open Marriage" by a couple named O'Neill (?) talks alot about how
    marital fidelity is not necessarily the only route to a happy
    marriage and may in fact get in the way. ( I personally don't agree
    but to each their own)
    
                                
    
                               --Bill 

    This is as good a way to asassinate my own character as any.
    
    From what I have seen,there are two kinds of men who cheat on their
    wives.  There are the ones who routinely cheat on their wives. 
    And there are the men who finally cheat on their wives.  Myself,
    I was the latter.  I grew up in a dysfunctional family unit.  Physical
    shows of affection were non-existant.  Words of love and respect
    were unspoken.  An emotional vacuum, as it were.  A virgin of 22
    when I got married, I remained a virgin for the next 6 months. 
    Not knowing what a warm affectionate, loving family relationship
    was I didn't know what was going on.  All I knew was that my needs
    weren't being met.  I felt a distinct shame for having those needs.
     I was grown to believe that sex was dirty and my wife didn't help
    me in that regard.  Finally I gave up.  Counseling hadn't helped.
    Therapy hadn't helped.  I gave up.  I didn't intentionally 'cross
    the street', it just happened.  I ran into a warm, affectionate,loving
    woman whomade me feel whole, normal, accepted for what I was and
    that that was not bad.  
    	I needed to establish my sexual identity.  A person can be a
    good father, a good worker, a good friend, a good
    christian/jew/whatever but he has to establish his sexual identity
    and it can only be established one way.  
    	further, I needed physical contact.  A couple of years ago I
    joined a group of singles ( yes singles) whowere working out their
    problems.  They closed their meetings with hugs: 4 for survival,
    8 for maintenance, and 12 for growth.  I did that a couple af weeks
    and began to notice how comfortable I felt in the meetings.  Finally
    the truth dawned on me: I had had more hugs in each meeting than
    I had had the entire rest of my life.  I've continued to go to the
    meetings.  I am a great hugger.
    	Now that I know what my sexual identity is, and I know that
    what I really need is warmth and affection and lots of hugs, I feel
    that I will not ever become involved with a person who can't meet
    my needs and whose needs I won't meet.  Therefore I can't imagine
    ever feeling any desire for an affair.
    
    
    Bob

    
    re .0
    
    I can easily understand a single guy having a good shtup
    with a married woman - forbidden fruit, a sense of "manhood"
    from taking what ostensibly belongs to someone else (the
    "conquering Hun instinct"), they enjoy it more than single
    women, there is less emotional content so its possible to savor
    the physical act more... 
    
    Hey, you asked...

    
>     If anyone is interested in reading more on the subject of marital
>    relationships, I recommend two books.  ...
    
Similar information on lesbian, gay, and bisexual partnerships, 
monogamy, nonmonogamy, and cheating can be found in the following 
books:


"The Male Couple"
By David P. McWhirter, M.D. and Andrew M. Mattison, M.S.W., Ph.D
(Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1984)

	A study of patterns and choices evident in gay male couples
	of all ages.


"A Passion for Friends: Toward a Philosophy of Female Attraction"
By Janice G. Raymond (Beacon Press, 1986)

	A study by an Associate Professor of Women's Studies
	at UMass/Amherst.


(A complete lesbian, gay, and bisexual booklist is available.  Just 
send me mail.)


							--Ger

    
    re: .18
    
    Can you explain the comment... "and maybe some men just don't care
    as deeply as many women"?
    
    

    Re: .21
    
    I'm sure, Steve, that you won't object if I (and perhaps others)
    disagree with you.  I don't think that there are any intrinsic
    differences between men and women in this area.  Actually, I believe
    I've read statistics that say more wives cheat on their husbands than
    the reverse.
    
    					Steve

    Also, the articles that I have picked up on the subject say that
    women are far more apt to forgive an affair than a  man. This
    may go back to the old steryotypes - that in the past men were
    'expected' to stray and women to be faithful (makes you wonder
    who the men strayed with.) But most published surveys/looks at/
    studies of the subject indicate that in general more women than
    men will forgive, forget and stay married when they find their
    spouse has wandered.
    
    Bonnie

    I'm new to this notesfile, but here is one reason that I know of
    that a man would cheat on his wife.  I've been seperated for 20
    months now.  She is in New York, while I'm here in Mass.
    She has seen at least 15-20 different guys since we've been 
    seperated.  Slept with at least half of them.  She tells me
    taht I can "see" other people if I want to, but i haven't really
    gone looking.  It gets real lonely when the person you love
    is somewhere else and fooling around when all you want is to try
    and patch things up.  I will admit that I have gone to bed with
    2 different females since we've been apart.  I hate to use the term,
    but they were one-night stands.  That is one reason why someone
    might cheat.
    
    
    Chris

    
    re: .21
    
    There are some interesting statistics for women on this subject
    in Shere Hite's "Women in Love."  I know there has been alot of
    discussion on whether the sample population she used for her
    survey is representative, but the numbers do give a good idea of
    what's going on.
    

RE: the book OPEN MARRIAGE.  I read that book quite a few years ago.
Every time someone mentions it I hear it said that the authors advocate
extramarital sex or that there is much talk of extramarital sex.  Maybe
my memory is failing, but I thought they only discussed extramarital 
sex in one chapter near the end.  The lasting impression that I got, had
to do with the concept that both parites in a marriage were complete 
people before they met and that they needed to remain whole people after
the marriage; that they should continue to maintain friendships outside
of the marriage.

Our culture has always presented it that we are incomplete as people until 
we are married (i.e., "coming together as one").

    
    
    shoosh,what a question! why would husbands cheat on there wives??
    why because don't you think that after a quite a long while that
    a man or woman have been married to eachother they seem to tend
    to get tired of the same ole thing if you get what i mean :*)
    it dosn't hurt to play a lil if you don't make habbits.stress in
    marriages;like children,nagging wives or husbands,jelousys,or even
    getting married because of a commitment.like having an unplanned
    pregnancy.there's alot too discuss about that topic and couples
    can also do it so that they don't get tired of the same thing.
    Angelina

    
    this is to the doctah!
    
    you sound so sicere and seriuos but what happened to the comment
    you said about "AN ERECTION HAS NO CONCIOUS" i think you are one
    halarious man,and you say that you are faithful to your wife,ha
    ha with a comment like that who wouldn't think you went out on your
    wife!
    a.g

    this is for the doctah (levesque)
    i think that you are great in this note and make people think real
    good. keep up the good work.
    angelina

    RE: Shere Hite = shear bullsh*t
    
    Now that I've gotten that off of my chest.
    
    
    I don't really believe that once you are married that you are really
    complete without your family.  Just my opinion.  I'm glad I feel
    that way though.
    
                                              Mike

 re: Angelina

 The reasons I gave in my first reply to this string were all (excuses) that
I've heard from OTHERS. I personally am perfectly faithful to my wife. My dad
was a good role model in that regard. I was taught from day 1 that it is very
important to be faithful and as such have never cheated, even on a girlfriend.

 I'm glad you enjoy my replies. I'm not quite as popular with everyone, 
especially in certain other conferences. :-) I do try to make other people
think, especially those who disagree with me.

 The Doctah

FWIW- My mother told about the one about "an erection has no conscience."

    many years ago, (1974) i "cheated on my wife"....  i'd been married
    since 1963, and my wife and i did not have the kind of relationship
    that anyone would call "good".  of course, all our friends *thought*
    we did...it is amazing how much one can cover-up, in relationships.
    
    why did i do it?  well, for starters, my wife (she is now my ex-wife)
    and i hadn't "done it" for nearly 3 years... she was into voluntary
    celibacy at that time, and i was out of town and the opportunity
    literally came knocking at my door.  so i had a one night stand..
    figuring it was "safe".  
    
    i did not particularly suffer from having this experience.  i was
    pretty religious, and worked through the problems that caused me.
    but, honestly, i don't think the experience was worth it.  i did
    have some guilt problems, and some anxieties...not too bad, though,
    but even though they weren't excruciating, they caused me enough
    worry to feel the experience should not be repeated.
    
    i am now planning marriage with another woman.  i can't imagine
    allowing myself to do this again.  not just because i know how badly
    it would hurt her, but because i know from experience that it just
    isn't worth the risks involved.  
    
    tony

    Excellent topic...  There is a very good book out called "His Needs/
    Her Needs" -How to have an affair-proof marriage. The principals
    discussed also can be applied to any relationship. It starts by
    listing 5 basic needs of men and 5 basic needs of women and explains
    that some can be shared but in general, these are the top ones for each
    person.  Why people cheat???   Lots of reasons, and lots of times
    people literally fall into an affair without even knowing the danger
    signals. If you can't see it comming, it's hard to prevent it. The
    author goes into exactly how it can happen, even to the best of couples
    if one or the others needs are not being met, if some of the needs are
    not being met and are being met by another person, all of a sudden,
    that person has turned your head, has filled something that may have
    gone unmet for a long time, a strong bond forms and one thing leads to
    another...  I can't go into all the details that the book covers but it
    is excellent reading, fast, simple to read and extremely eye-opening
    for both men and woman. 
    
    Personally, I agree with the various replies that have said that woman
    cheat just as much as men...  I take offense to woman who say that all
    men are ***holes...  I think woman can be equally as "bad" and can do
    just as much emotional damage as can men... 
    
    -M

From .34:

	starts by
    listing 5 basic needs of men and 5 basic needs of women 

How about putting the list here so we can all see and (dis)agree?

Better still, how about a base note? I'm sure it would arouse a lot of
discussion.

	Andrew.

    Ya sure. I will have to bring the book in.
    
    Comming to a note near you - next week!
    
    -M

    
     I have been married for 8+ years, and had a few weeks affair
    with a co-worker from my second job. I had/have a dozen or more
    reasons why it happened, some conveniently provided by friends
    and family. But now I think they are all bull****.
    
     I was lucky. My wife took me back. We had problems before that
    and will have problems off and on just like everybody else, but
    for a few weeks of nerve straining fun I spent a year as an 
    emotional basket case. Fortunately, my wife and I have more
    communication now then we EVER had.
    
     My advise to those who consider it, male or female, DON'T DO IT!
    If you're not happy with your marriage, either try to work
    it out or end it. Cheating solves nothing and the tradeoff of
    pleasure vs. guilt for me was not a good deal at all.
    
    Paul W.