Conference quark::mennotes-v1

         Well, the only situation in which I think she should keep it
    is if he dumped on her at the last moment.  If HE was the dog in
    the situation, heck, she has every likelihood of trying to get revenge.
    Not that it is justifiable, but it is QUITE within human nature.
    
         There are an infinite number of situations in which she SHOULD
    give it back.
    
                                    Greg

I think that if the engagement is called off, she should give back the ring, 
although in situations such as Greg mentions in .1, she might not, and the 
giver of the ring would probably come off as rubbing salt in the wounds if he 
asked for it back.  If he doesn't care at that time HOW he comes off, and if he 
doesn't care if the woman might feel really hurt at the question, he should ask 
for it back.  

Re; size, you have options;

Find a friend of hers who wears the exact same ring size.  Take the friend 
shopping with you.  Hopefully, you know enough about her tastes at this time to 
reasonably successfully match it with your budget. ;-)

Notice her rings when she wears them, as to which one fits her the best, and 
"borrow" it from her for a day without telling her.

Get engaged first and get the ring together later.  You can always ask a 
jeweler to not reveal prices to her if that makes you uneasy (kind of like a 
French restaurant ;-))

    
    	RE: .0  on ring sizing;
    
    	Buy it a little small.   It is easy to stretch a ring to a slightly
    larger size, but rings cannot easily be made smaller.
    	
    			Alan.

    Normally, I think she should get the ring back.
    
    However, I can see a few conditions where she would not be in the
    wrong by keeping it, the major one being that she's footing the
    bill for the wedding, he calls it off the night before - she's stuck
    with all the bills anyway.  At least she can get *something* out
    of it by selling the ring.
    
    If she calls it off, I think she should always give the ring back.
    If he does within a reasonable time before the wedding, before any
    significant expenses and embarassment are incurred, he should still
    get it back, but it would be a nice gesture to tell her to keep
    it.
    
    I am assuming that he pays for 100% of the cost of the ring.  If
    she pays all or part, it should be returned or sold and the money
    split.
    
    Elizabeth

    Well, I was in exactly this situation a bit over a year ago - we
    ended the engagement, and she returned the ring.
    
    I still have it (in a safe deposit box).  I would not simply resize
    it and give it to another woman, though I might "trade it in" or
    at least use the diamond (the most expensive component) in
    a future engagement ring (assuming of course, I ever find another woman
    I want to be engaged to and vice versa... any volunteers? :-))
        
    I disagree with the comment that rings cannot be downsized - they
    can, and I have done it.  You don't want to go TOO far (say, more
    than 2 sizes from the original), because rings are typically
    designed for certain sizes.  But a good jeweler will do it right,
    and it isn't expensive (it's cost me $25 to downsize or upsize).

    I agree that in most cases, she should return the ring, unless she
    feels it is necessary to compensate for other financial obligations.
    In general, an engagement IS considered a contract (hence "breach
    of promise" suits) and the ring a symbol of the agreement.

    				Steve

    Personally, I feel that if there are any "BAD" feelings between
    the two - meaning an argument over property/who keeps what - that
    the best thing to do is to leave it to the other persons conscience.
    Why fight over an inanimate object that can easily be replaced.
    No one, I believe, wants to leave a relationship with any "BAD"
    feelings on either side, just cut your losses and write it off.
    Feelings just aren't worth all the aggravation.  It's all a matter
    of pride, not revenge or getting what you deserve.  Take it from
    a divorcee who would rather have a clear conscience.  This would
    not mean that I would leave her the house.  When it comes to Capital
    items the plot thickens and becomes more brutal.
    
    
    -jeff-
    
    
    

         I don't know if most men could be as mellow as you are about
    this, Jeff.  If they consider themselves to be the 'victim' in the
    breakup, just knowing that she got ANYTHING out of her dealings
    could drive a guy nuts.
    
         Then, if anyone still adheres to the old "two months' pay"
    rule for buying rings, that ring could be REAL expensive.
    
                                 Greg

    "SEXIST" I am not!!!  You see, all is fair in LOVE and war.  If
    she/he wants to be a real assh__e about it then more power to them.
    I am not going to be the one who intentionally does something that
    is going to hurt another.  Think about it!  Every breakup of a
    relationship is a direct result of BOTH parties involvement, it takes
    two.  I haven't seen any relationship break up due to ONE of the
    persons fault, I do know there have been some but, the majority.
    I'm not being a sexist or a wimp, I'm just being rational and using
    my head.  So what if she didn't give the ring back, is the material
    aspect or the monetary value of the ring worth all the hassle and
    feelings that you are about to put yourself and the other through?
    It all comes down to "it's not worth the emotional stress" unless,
    when you ask for the ring it is given back.  It can't hurt to attempt
    but, don't push.  Too many emotions get involved and can interfere with
    the things that are more important such as your future, career,
    obligations, etc...  Let them be the guilty one later down the road.
    Plus, as far as revenge goes, HE doesn't let it go unnoticed.  They
    will get theirs!!!
    
    
    
    -jeff-
    

I think if I ended it I'd give the ring back and if he ended it,
I'd keep it. 

If it was mutual, I dont know.  I guess it would depend on the
circumstances.

Kp.

    GO WITH YOUR CONSCIENCE!
    

         As long as I treated her well, whether I ended it or not
    (certainly not close to the date of the wedding, unless the unexpected
    occurred), I would insist that she give the ring back.  I would
    probably use most available means to compel her to do so.
    
                                     Greg

    Given that the ring is a symbol of the agreement/contract...
    
    (slight deviation)  is the wedding set (his and hers) considered
    part of the property settlement in the event of divorce?
    
    MB
    

    
         At that point, I'd say each can keep their own.
    
                                     Greg

    RE: .16
    
    Mary Beth....
    When I divorced, my *ex* asked for MY ring!  I happily gave it to
    her...
    
    tony  _who_paid_the_price_for_the_ring_AND_the_marriage_

    Re: .16
    
    No, the rings in a wedding set are NOT considered part of a contract,
    but rather they are gifts.
    
    				Steve
    
    P.S.  It broke my heart to get the ring back.  I had put so much
    of myself and my love into choosing it.  I cannot look at it without
    breaking into tears (or even thinking about it, like right now.)
    It was so perfect....

    
    I think rings are irrelevent tokens, and at 2 months salary,
    a poor use of resources.
    
    What is a ring for? What, exactly, do you get for $6000?
    Do you realize you could get a beautiful Santana tandem
    with exquistite buffalo-hide seats and top-of-the-line
    Shimano components for that kind of money? It probably
    keep you together a lot longer also. 
    
    The principals who love each other will do so whether they 
    wear a whistle ring, a piston ring, or a beaver ring... 
    
    So, who, exactly is the "rock" for?  It's to impress third parties...
    
    If I ever find myself in that unlikely situation, I'll
    give one of those secret decoder rings you find among
    the Frosted Flakes... 
    
    

    Re: .21
    
    With an attitude like that Bob, I think it is VERY unlikely....
    
    				Steve

    re: .20
    
    Ouch!  That's truly a heartbreaker.
    
    re: .21
    
    It seems to me that the meaning one wishes to impart to a particular
    symbol is valid for the individual.  Were you to marry, Bob, and
    trade secret decoder rings instead of the usual gold, I suspect
    that although it might be a "worthless trinket" to another person,
    that decoder ring would become one of your most valuable possesions.
    
    Steve

    re .22
    
    Are you saying that most women are that impractical?
    
    Seeing those huge rocks conjures up images of Africans 
    laboring for DeBeers, for slave wages.. 
    
    I just cannot see giving gifts of this particular 
    mineral as socially responsible.

    If posessing one is necessary to symbolize 
    love, then yes, they will wait an eternity to 
    get one from me.                         
    

    Re: .24
    
         Uh-oh.  I can't disagree with that.  I am even now trying to
    think of another precious and acceptable stone for an engagement
    ring (no I'm not considering anything).  I can't quite see myself
    supporting S.A.
    
                                    Greg

    I agree that the "two months salary" is a bit excessive, at least
    for me.
    
    Tokens and symbols mean only what you think they mean.  If a couple
    views a ring as a symbol of the love and commitment they have
    for each other, then that's good.  If they don't care, then
    I suppose it doesn't matter.  Your note, Bob, struck me as
    demeaning of those to whom it does matter.
    
    				Steve

    
    re: -.1
    
    I'm sorry you read that into it...

         Re: .28
    
         That was a subtle bit of braggadocio.
    
                                    Greg

    Well my ring cost the price of painting a house the first time.
    It is small but 'suitably ostentatious' i.e. it stands for
    somthing very special. (It was a two story victorian house and
    all the paint peeled off the following spring.) It was given
    to me in a bar/coffee shop in Grand Central Station! :-)
    Some years later the stone fell out and I put it away until we
    could afford to replace it. At the time we were *very*  broke
    having (perhaps foolishly) bought an old farm in the country. At
    about that time I found three savings bonds my great uncle had
    given me when I was born. Being very tempted to cash them in for
    food and expense money, we chased them in instead to replace the
    stone in the ring. (This being before we were sensitive on SA
    issues, I would have picked a different stone today.)
    
    So my ring stands for a lot of things, the hard work a very
    broke young grad student put in painting the house of some
    next door neighbors (who knew neither he nor his clergy parents
    had the cash for an enagement ring), the gift years ago during
    a war of a man who I never met, and a memory of some very rough
    times for us that we survived.
    
    Bonnie
    
    it reminds me of a poem that I can't quite quote correctly
    
    "....if thou hast two loaves, then sell one and with the dole,
    by hyacinths to feed thy soul"

        The idea of purchasing an engagement ring is for the couple
    envolved, not outsiders..I got engaged two months ago, and I love
    it!  Not for the sake of being engaged, but for the realization
    that someone loves me enough to want me to spend the rest of my
    life as his wife.  The engagement ring is a commitment that the
    man pleges to the woman that he will love and protect the love of his
    life for as long as they live.
         The woman accepts the ring as acceptance of the fact of the
    man's love and loyalty.  The woman will love, honor and obey, but
    out of love, not because she wants the ring.  It takes far more
    curage for a man to propose, than for a woman to reject the proposal.
          I love and respect the man who proposed to me, for that shows
    that he has a great deal of love and respect for me to be willing
    to commit himself to me for the rest of his life,
              The ring is a sign of commitment on both parts.
              It is not the monetary value of the diamond that values,
              unfortunatly, that is what symbolizes our love.
                                 I love my fiancee nomatter
                                 what we had exchanged.  The
                                 ring is simply a more valuable
                                 symbol of our commitment to
                                 each other.
              A ring without love is just a ring.  That is wh diamonds
    are used for engagement rings, they are priceless, just like love.
                                  I love you Frank,
                                       Christine                            
                              

    
    
    Was that Frosted Flakes or, one of my favorites, Sugar Crisp?
    
    -jeff-
    

    When I got engaged about a month ago, we went to the Jewelry Exchange
    in Boston, after already having looked at the higher priced ones
    in the retail stores in NH.  We put the wedding set on lay-away
    expecting to pay for the set over the next eight months.
    
    For the next two weeks she kept on saying how excited she was and
    couldn't wait to get the engagement ring.  The following Friday
    I go down to Beantown, write a check for the remainder of the diamond,
    go back to NH, and that evening while at a local night club she
    finds the diamond in the bottom of her wine glass.  I never saw
    more excitement/hapiness in one person than I saw in her that night.
    It made me feel so warm inside knowing that I had made her so happy
    doing the most that I could to show her how much she meant to me.
    
    It didn't make a difference if the ring were $5.- or $5000.-, it
    was what she liked!  And that made all the difference.
    
    
    -jeff-
    

    
    
    .31
    
    Please tell me I read that wrong.  You don't REALLY intend to
    include a promise of obedience, do you?
    
                         Deborah
    
    

    re .34
    
    Why not include a promise of obedience?  If she has found someone
    who she trusts so much that she is comfortable saying 'obey' then
    why not?  She must know that he would never do anything to
    intentionally hurt her and has her best interest at heart.  Perhaps
    many people find that too idealistic but some of us still think
    it's possible.  To me that kind of trust is what love is really
    about.
    
    						John

    
    RE:35  YOU KNOW JOHN YOU BRING UP AN IMPORTANT QUESTION..
    
    i think is a spin off of the saying now adaze.... 
    		Look out for number one first...
    i never did buy that but i see more people around me that actually
    live up to that........
    
    		wendy o'
    

    
    
    To obey someone is to follow their commands, in a subservient
    manner.  To really trust in a relationship, is to depend upon\
    your partner to do the right thing without being told what to
    do.
    
    Deborah
    
    

Regarding engagement rings...

Would anyone like to start another topic...I have access to information on the 
meaning of stones; the symbolism.  The information I have suggests that 
diamonds may not be the best symbolic choice, and also suggests that diamonds 
have been falsely driven up in price by hiding their more-abundant-than-you-
might-think supply.  SO...you could get something less-expensive, with better 
symbolism...like a sapphire.

Trying to come back from a seeming rathole,
Meredith

    	I know I'm behind the times...just catching up on notes on
    	the weekend...
    
    	a ring is a symbol of commitment.  I still remember that class
    	ring I hung around my neck in high school....sigh...  When I
    	got married many years ago, I would have been happy with *any*
    	symbol.  We purchased matching bands, mine was gold, his was
    	silver, no stones...   and I was perfectly happy without an
    	expensive diamond.  I have never really liked diamonds anyway...
    	too cold for my taste (and too overpriced)...
    
    	Since my separation, I put the ring away (I forgot where) and
    	don't really care if I ever see it again...it has no sentimental
	value for me...I guess I could melt it down :*)  If it was worth
    	$6000, I would have a harder time dealing with its disposition.
    
    	and *if* there is a next-time (ie marriage in the remote future)
    	I would do the same thing...  a decoder ring would be a fun
    	idea :*) for an engagement ring...  I would want wedding ring 
    	to be a little sturdier - plastic would symbolize a short
    	life for the marriage :*)

    
    		sherry

    I kept my wedding ring/engagement ring when my marriage ended after
    13 years....  He gave me back his wedding ring though...
    
    After leaving them in the jewelry box for a while, I took them,
    and traded the gold (worth) in, and had the diamond reset to a mothers
    ring for my right hand (one of my daughters was born in April, which
    has the diamond for a birth stone)... it made the mothers ring a
    lot cheaper, and its something I wear everyday and reminds me of
    both, my marriage, and my daughters...
    
    G

    
      The ring is used to show commitment. If the commitment should be 
    broken then the ring should be returned.... I don't think 'to the 
    victor goes the spoils' applies.
    
       As stated, the type of ring is NOT important but the commitment
    it implies is. Tradition says that a diamond is the appropriate
    choice but that is the couples' decision.
    
     Bob
    

    
    re .22
    
    I may suprise you some day...

    Re: .41
    
         Now, if we could alter tradition so that each member of the
    couple gave the other a gift...
    
                                   Greg

    RE: .43
    
    When we became engaged last year, both my wife and I exchanged rings.
    Admittedly, we were both unaware of the custom of a woman giving
    a man an engagement ring, but after several uncles "informed" her  :-)
    of the old Italian tradition of both couples giving rings, she gave
    me a beautiful onyx and diamond engagement ring.  After getting
    married, I switched the engagement ring to my right hand.
    
    								TonyP
    

    Hi there-
    
    	I didn't read all the answers up to now - but I have the impression
    	that a lot of people are only thinking about the money business
    	(who paid for that and who paid for this).
    
    	If I would leave him he would get the ring back as well, because
    	it would only remind me of him, the time we spent together etc..
    	and that's not what I would want.             
    
    	And it's a little bit different if he wants to finish, because
    	she has to manage with it eventhough she might still love him
    	very much. Keeping the ring would only make it worse.
    
    
    Oh gosh - I see  *** Women can really be sentimental ***
    
    Servus form Munich
    
    Birgit

    I have to go with _ if he breaks it off she should have to option
    to keep the ring.  Though I can't imagine wantint to keep it if
    it is a "bitter" break up.  She breaks it off _ Give it back!
    
    Diamond/or not?  I wouldn't have to have an engagement ring to
    be happy, it would be an added bonus.  As for a diamond, I've
    always wanted a night/day pearl ring.  I've bought myself a couple
    of rings, and my parents bought a Blue Star Sapphire I wanted for
    graduation.  But I;ve always wanted a man to love me enough to know
    how much I want this ring, and give it to me.  It could be my
    engagement, wedding, Christmas present for the rest of my  life
    and
    I would make him a *very* happy man!!!!:-) :-)
    
    
                         cj
    

    I am living with a guy who once said to me that he was 'wary' of
    marriage and would need to find a 'very special' person before he
    would consider committing himself. (at the time he said this, we
    were purely 'drinking buddies' and there was no romance expected)
    
    Now, three years on, we are in the process of looking for an engagement
    ring.
    
    The value of the ring or the stone involved, does not matter to
    me, the fact that he has chosen me as that 'very special' person
    means everything.
    As long as we BOTH like the ring (and can afford it!) then nothing
    else matters. (although I don't want an opal as they're supposed
    to be unlucky as engagment rings)
    
    As regards giving the ring back if we should ever split up (God
    forbid) I have to agree with note .47, to keep the ring would only
    be an unhappy reminder of what could have been but never was.
    
    
    Fran
    

    
    Apparently the only people who should can wear opals (for engagement
    rings or anything else) are Scorpios.....they're unlucky for
    anyone else (well, so my Grandma told me! ;-)
    
    And I agree with the last note - to keep a ring after the engagement
    has broken off would be sad, and possibly mercenary.
    
    How could you ever bring yourself to wear it, anyway?
    
    'gail