Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Some random thoughts:
    
    One member of a couple must have a higher salary than the other (unless
    the salaries happen to be exactly equal!) ... why should the man's be
    higher than the woman's?
    
    What is the nature of your feelings of competition?  Does your lower salary
    cause feelings of inadequacy, as well?
    
    My wife has a higher salary than I do.  I don't equate this with any
    inferiority, lack of skill, etc. on my part.
    

    - Dave

         I AM COMPETITIVE BY NATURE TO BEGIN WITH, I GUESS THAT'S A
    CONTRIBUTING FACTOR.  MOST TIMES I COMPETE WITH ONLY MEN.  I
    GUESS THE IDEA OF BEING THE (PRIMARY) BREAD WINNER IS APPEALING
    TO ME.  THE SITUATION IS AKIN TO JOCKEYING FOR POSITION, THE END
    OF THE RACE BORDERING ON ARBITRARY.  VERY CONFUSING FOR MYSELF.

    re .1

    > Does your lower salary cause feelings of inadequacy, as well?

    I didn't word this well ... I'm not being sarcastic or critical;
    I just wanted to understand more about what you are thinking ....
    
    - dave

         NO OFFENSE TAKEN DAVE.  I HARDLY THINK OF MYSELF AS
    INADEQUATE.  THIS COULD BE CONSIDERED JUST A MICROCOSM AS
    COMPARED TO MY WHOLE ID.  (WOW, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE SUPER
    EGO OR WHAT?)  SERIOUSLY, I'M JUST LOOKING FOR DIFFERENT 
    OPINIONS.
                                 MS

This is an interesting situation.

When my (past) S/O was a computer professional (as I obviously am), even
though she was 8 years older and two graduate degrees more educated, I
felt not-as-good about what I did, and how well I did it, when I found
out that she made a good 25% more than me.  It's isn't that I really
cared that she made more, I think what bothered me more was that (usually)
salary is equated with {performance | knowledge | expertise}, and I
knew that I was "better" than her, and therefore should make more.  Now,
my CURRENT S/O is a dentist.  Big change, 'cause I wouldn't know where
to start with someones teeth.  The fact that she makes more makes absolutly
no difference.  

If nothing else, this may point to an area you need to look at.  At least
I got to examine MY feelings on the subject.  How curious.

/harv

	As long as you both feel that you are both making "significant"
contributions towards your combined economic state, and you're both
comfortable with your standard of living, what differnce does money
make in a relationship?

	Or is the issue more of job/career competition?

	It could be a case of dissimilar jobs, or one person getting an
earlier start on their career, or getting more "lucky breaks", or being
more career oriented (not necessarily good or bad) than the other, or
different education, or.....

	Is the sense of competition you feel the friendly sort, as in 
a game of tennis, or the nasty sort?

					-sjk

    IN REPLY TO .6, I THINK THE COMPETITION IS NOT OF THE NASTY
    KIND.  A PARTNER SHE IS AND I SHOULD LOOK AT IT AS SUCH.
    HAS SELFISHNESS REARED IT'S UGLY HEAD...........MAYBE.

    recently, I've gone out to dinner several times with a
    gentleman-friend.  He *insists* on paying (and driving)- no possibility
    of doing it any other way.  I've never met anyone like this (although I
    knew they were out there).  The thing I'm having trouble getting across
    to him is that I feel just as uncomfortable accepting this royal
    treatment as he would if *I* insisted on paying/driving. 
    
    (I guess, even if I've never been "treated" before, I'm just supposed
    to accept it as natural, right?).  I'd just feel much more comfortable
    if we took turns, or went dutch, or something.  
    
    By the way, in all the previous relationships I've had, I've always
    made more than him.  That's generally because I was older and
    working/co-opping, or if we were both students I was holding down a job
    or two at the same time.  I never got the impression they were
    uncomfortable with my salary/pay, but perhaps that's because I didn't
    flaunt it, and if I was in a "serious", live-in relationship, whatever
    "we" made was considered "our" money. 
    
    -Jody
    

    JODY,
       WELL, YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.  WHILE SHE WAS IN
    SCHOOL I PAID FOR 90 PERCENT OF ALL EXPENSES.  SHE KNOWS
    THIS, NOT THAT I HARPED ABOUT IT, AND IS WILLING TO CONTRIBUTE
    MONETARILY TO OUR JOINT ACTIVITIES.  THIS IDEA, WHILE BEING
    INTERESTING TO MY CHECKBOOK BALANCE MAKES ME A LITTLE UNCOMFY.
    LOOKS LIKE A CATCH 22, HUH?

    
    Re:  last few...
    
    	"selfishness"??  I wouldn't call it selfishness.  Sounds like
    you are just totally engrossed in the "old_fashioned" way of 
    thinking/living where the man is 100% responsible for the finances,
    etc.  It sounds to me like your pride is hurt that she's talented
    enough to earn a salary comparable or better than yours.  I don't
    understand the feelings of having to be better than she is....guess
    it's the sexism that bothers me.  Why can't a woman be "better"
    at something than a man??  Aren't we all human beings?? 
    
    	My
    

       
       
       	It's all in your head.
       
       						mike

    RE: .10 Does being paid more mean someone is better than someone
    else? (I may have misinterpreted what was said, if so please disregard)
    
    Off the base, but in the same ballpark: What really blows my mind
    is that sports figures command such high a salary, but the average
    firefighter makes around $25,000/yr.  Doesn't make any sense at
    all to me.
    
                                                         Mike

    
    re:  .12
    
    	Exactly...so why do some men get upset when the woman 
    	in their life gets paid more than they do?? ?? ?? ?? 
    
    	My_still_confused! 
    

    
    	re:  .12 (again..) 
    
    	Maybe "better" was a poor choice of words...just went back
    and re-read my entry.  Maybe the way I should have stated it is:
    
    	"If a woman is talented enough to attain a "higher level" 
    	or whatever??"  Usually, at least in the computer industry,
    	the higher the pay check the higher the level.  I agree, it
    	doesn't compute with Professional Athletes but then that's 
    	a little different.  However you want to say it, it still 
    	doesn't make sense to me that some men are intimidated by 
    	women who either a.) have a bigger salary than theirs, 
    			 b.) have a position with a company that is
    			higher than theirs,
    			 c.) happen to be smarter than they are. 
    
    		My 
     

        Well, after thinking about it a little more and taking
    into account the responses I have viewed, I have come to a
    conclusion.  I don't believe that I am sexist (I'm pretty
    liberal), jealous or insecure.  Here lies the diagnosis,
    the feeling of being needed in that capacity.  We're talking
    an inbred trait that has been in existence since we showed
    up on this rock.  Women have come a long way and I give them
    the highest of praise and don't deny them their due.  My 
    attitude, although out of touch, I deem honorable.  Like Elvis
    Costello said, "He's a man out of time."  Mike the Author.

    Statistic:  Since 1974, for every $1 a man makes, a woman with the
    same background (education & experience) makes $1.02.
    
    
    
    Source: Department of commerce study.
    
    
    
                                                         Mike

    RE: .13 & .14
    
    I believe in part that it is as .15 says.  That's the way it's been
    for a long time.  Another part of this issue is the homemaker. 
    If women still want the opportunity to stay at home and be a homemaker
    the man has to be able to bring home enough money to support his
    family.  I think this is another factor which has to be taken into
    consideration.
    
                                                     Mike

    re: .17
    
         I interprut your statements:
    
>    If women still want the opportunity to stay at home and be a homemaker
>    the man has to be able to bring home enough money to support his
>    family.  I think this is another factor which has to be taken into
>    consideration.
    
    to mean that you feel that a woman should make less then men because
    some men choose to support some women, or some women desire to be
    supported by some men.  Am I correct in my interprutation?
    
    ASP

    My wife just brought home the latest issue of ``Self'' magazine,
    which features an article on ``marrying for the money.'' To summarize:
    
    1) More women are doing it today than in recent years.
    2) It's OK to marry for the money, particularly if you want to be
    a homemaker.
    3) Don't feel guilty about it.
    
    Is this the redux of ``Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend''? Yes
    and no. Some women really do want ``their man'' to make much more
    money than they do. Other women simply don't want to be strapped
    during the difficult years of child-raising. I can sympathize. My
    wife wants a ``wife'' for Christmas and I want a ``rich husband.''
    In lieu of both, we'll muddle along. My wife, a BSN, makes more
    money than I do and I think that's great. All power to the nursing
    union! They work like dogs and have not been compensated fairly
    until very recently.
    
    It is interesting to note that many women would be outraged if a
    magazine like Esquire or GQ or Playboy ran a story that said:
    
    1) It's OK to marry a rich woman for the money.
    2) Don't feel guilty about it.
    3) You can justify it.
    
    -- Peter

    
    I knew a guy who DID marry a millionare. At first, he thought he'd
    have it made--lots of money, no work, just sit back and let the
    good times roll. Things were fine for about a year. Then it started
    to get to him. He started to realize that whatever he did, no matter
    how hard he worked, no matter how much money he made, he could never
    be the breadwinner in the family. He felt pretty valueless, like
    his opinions and feelings didn't count, like because he didn't have
    the money in the family, he didn't have ANY say in what was going
    to happen. Powerless. Castrated. And, of course, the word on the
    street was that he had married her just for the money, so he ended
    up isolating himself, which didn't help either...

    It took a long time and a lot of bad scenes before he realized that
    his value didn't depend on just the amount of money he made and that 
    the other things he contributed were valuable too.
    
    Anyway, the moral to this is that if anyone looks at themselves
    just as a money machine, and hangs their worth to someone else
    on how much money each one makes, they're going to be in trouble. 
    They're going to eat themselves up thinking about H.L. Hunt. Looking at
    yourself from just one point of view is bad news. You don't get
    to see everything that's going on.
    
    (Jeez, I oughta turn my collar around...)
    
    Ed E.