Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    
    Gee, Bob, some of my best friends-including my husband-are
    white males.
    
    But then, I think THAT mind-set puts ME in a minority....
    
    
                         Deborah  (heavy sigh from thinking of the
                                   human race and all the accusations
                                   and mud-slinging)
    
     

    I will be the first (white male) to agree with .0. Although I must
    add that it does not always feel that way, only in spacific places.
    With spacific people.  Life IS funny, ya know?
                                   People aren't.     @L  

       
       	Oh Robert, QuitYerBitchin'....Can't you just be man enough
       to stand up to all these damned bleeding heart liberals and tell
       them to take a flying fig? (You all know what I mean by fig)
       
       	Pull yourself up by the jock, wipe the snivel off your face
       and cock your gun.  It's time to grow up and face the music.
       (Or change to a different station but your not that kinda guy)
       
       
       
       	Oh yea, I agree with you.
       
       							mike
       
       
       	Ooo-ra

                        Men are paid better than Women
                  Women suffer violence at the hands of Men
    
    You hear those statements with an "all" in front of the "Men", say
    that "I'm a Man" so you hear "Bob Barber is paid better than [all]
    Women" and "Women suffer violence from Bob Barber" and you whine
    and beat your breast and say "I'm being accused unfairly" "These
    people are mean and nasty to me."
    
    I hear those statements with an "in general" or even "most" in front
    of the "Men", so I hear nothing about me personally. I hear that
    [in general] women are treated unfairly and I say "Yes, this is true,
    I will try to do something about it." As a result, I'm happy, people
    like me, and I don't whine in notesfiles.
    
    I'm sorry you're unhappy Bob, I really am, but you should practice
    what you preach. Walk a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning,
    understand where they're coming from, because it's damn sure you
    don't yet.
    
    	-- Charles

    
    
    -1
    
                           "Get outta here......."

    Re: .6
    
    The trenchant logic of your reply has cut me to the quick, I fear you
    find my wit too mordant, my points too obscure, and I lack the patience
    or the skill to make them clear to you.
    
    	In whatever circle of hell we live, I think that we are free
    	to break it. And if people do not break it, then they stay their
    	of their own free will. So they put themselves in hell freely.
    
    	-- Jean Paul Sartre, October 1965
    
        One of the greatest drawbacks to self centered passions is that
        they afford so little variety in life. The man who loves only
        himself cannot, it is true, be accused of promiscuity in his
        affections, but he is bound in the end to suffer intolerable
        boredom from the inevitable sameness of the object of his
        devotion.
        
        -- Bertrand Russel, "The Autobiography of Bertrand Russel",
        	Chapter 17.
    
    Thanks just the same, but I think I'll stay. Perhaps you would be
    willing to expand on your reasoning for asking me to leave?
    
    	-- Charles

    Life IS a one way street.  It begins at birth and ends when white
    males decide to fly off to Sweden for a change!  When they come
    back, they are... non-white females!!!  

    
                                   RE:  .7
    
         "Sorry.  I have no fear of Hell.  Nor do I believe in one."
          
                "If Hell bothers you, see your local priest."
    
                    "Thousands of locations to serve you."

    
    
    re: 5,7and any others...
    
                            Get outa here...

    Re: .10
    
    I don't think my local priest would appreciate me quoting Sartre
    and Russell at him any more than you do...
    
    Sartre was the father of Existentialism, Russell was a well known
    atheist, among other things. The hell I was alluding to is entirely
    allegorical, and all too real. The hell Sartre is referring to is
    our own misery.
    
    As for "Get out of here!", let's see... how should I respond?
    
    	Free speech? Naw, I'd sound like a sophmore...
    	You're opressing me? Naw, I'd sound like a Monty Python movie...
    	You aren't listening to me? Naw, that's obvious...
    	Censorship? Naw, I'd sound like a FRESHMAN...
    	Blatant bullying? Naw, They haven't threatened anything...
    	You're being childish? Naw, if they are, it won't work anyway...
    	You're a bunch of a******s? Naw, it'd get set hidden...
    	Give them a sloppy kiss? Naw, they wouldn't appreciate it...
    
    I know! I'll ignore them.
    
    On the other hand. Maybe I'll practice the golden rule. There've
    been a number of notes where the "Get out of here!" noters have
    been asked, quite politely, to abandon a line of argument as
    uncharitable, unreasonable, and inflammatory in other notes files,
    and I've wished they would just stop. So in a spirit of
    cooperativeness, and as a gesture of conciliation,
    
    	I'll do it. I'll stop hassling you in this note.
    
    	See 'ya around the notesfile,
    	-- Charles

       
       
       	Oh yea, I forgot to add Bob.... 
       
       
       
       "Get outta here..."
       
       
       							mike

    
    RE .5, .7, .12   Charles, your so far outa here your in with the out 
                     crowd. But thats allright I really didn't expect you 
                     to understand the message in .0, I realize that
                     its too male orientated for you and some others. 
                     Regarding your leaving the subject, its too bad that
                     electronic medium can not display applause. I could
                     have sworn that I heard it after that announcement.
     
    RE.  Mike F      I say WHEN, PAY ATTENTION BOY, I SAID WHEN, are
                     you going to learn it's OOOOOH RA, said with FEELING
                     there boy !!!!! Clint say's hang you head son,
                     till you learn.

                                                 Bob B

    Apparently, there's some confusion over the meaning of:
    
    		"get outa here..."
    
    Maybe, 'get off it' would be better? A little dated but...
    
    
    re .0
    
    Geez Bob, all in one note?

    
    	RE0.&.15
    
    	I'm behind you 100%, Bob!
    
    	Todd

        RE: 221.12   OPHION::HAYNES
       	>See 'ya around the notesfile,
    	>-- Charles
        
    
        I doubt it.  I don't read WOMMANNOTES.

    ...sheesh...
    
    I'm with Mike.
    
    But if you want to rave on and feel bad in public, guess this is
    the place to do it.
    
    Jane
    "White Woman"

    
    	This and WOMENSNOTES.....(hint hint)
    
    Todd

    
    RE .19     You know, this is an absolute prime example of what I'am
               talking about. Could someone enlighten me as to why, when
               a man makes a statement about how he is not appreciative
               of what is transpiring in the world as of late, he is
               guilty of "rave on" ? Yet, let a woman or other minority
               do it and its a case of them expressing their justifiable
               complaints against society and the system. Sounds to
               me like an excelent example of a double standard, and
               a pass at the one way senero being OK.
    
                                                   Bob B
    
    
               

    Bob, I'm not sure what you want people to say...  Do you want us
    to all nod our heads in agreement and go cluck-cluck-cluck?  What
    kind of reaction did you expect?
    
    I happen to disagree with your basic premise, but if you really
    feel that way, then fine, you can go ahead and say so.  But please
    don't automatically assume that everyone feels the same way you
    do.
    
    				Steve

    Dear Bob B.,
    
    Let me 'splain something--whether it had been a man, a woman, a
    tropical fish, or an android who had written a note like that, I
    guarantee there would have been answers like mine.  What I responded
    to was the "poor me (read that (M/F)" tone.
    
    Everyone has a right to complain, justifiably or not;  the way they
    choose to do it may have its own consequences.
    
    Peace?
    
    Jane

    I don't see a double standard going on - I pretty much agree with C.
    Haynes, and feel he has a right to point out what he has pointed out
    without being flamed - any woman or man has that right. 

    I agree that you (Bob) have the right to complain (whether I agree
    or not is immaterial - but I strongly defend your right to express
    your feelings). 
    
    HOWEVER - were I to spend energy explaining how and why I agree more
    strongly with Charles and disagree more strongly with Bob, I may well
    be told to go scuttle back to Womannotes and stay there.  I have
    learned to put my efforts to communicate where they will do the most
    good - rather than sending me down in flames. 

    Again - silence shouldn't be construed as condoning any or all of
    the opinions that have been expressed.  
    
    -Jody
    

    RE .22    Steve,  I didn't "want" people to say anything. I fully
              realize that there would be those that agreed with me
              and others that did not. And as strange as it may sound
              I don't have a problem with you or someone else expressing
              that they disagree with me and relating their point of
              view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    
              What I do object to, is the brush off and being discreated
              by the implication that I'am only "raving" on. I believe
              that any contributor to this file is due that accord.
              For the most part, that is the norm in this file and thats
              why this file is as good as it is. I would really be saddened
              to see it go the route of others, where the opposing opinion
              of persons, others than the "in" crowd are met with the
              atypical " your out to lunch " reactions, rather than
              responsible opposing views.
                                             Bob B

    By the way, I also agree with Charles and consider it poor taste
    for people to ridicule him for his very cogent statements.
    
    One of the things that bothered me a great deal about the first
    incarnation of this conference (called MEN) was that it was full of
    machismo puffery and not much else.  I REALLY hope that this
    conference isn't going to go the same way.  Being a man means not
    having to pretend to be the fiction of what Hollywood says a man
    should be.
    
    					Steve

    Re: .25 (written while I was writing .26)
    
    That's fine.  Nobody should feel that they are being chased out of
    here merely for expressing unpopular views.  (Expressing views in
    an offensive manner, though, is something else.)
    
    Should the moderators be stricter about disallowing the "Get outta
    here" type responses?  I figured those as equivalent to "you're
    pulling my leg", not as a specific request to leave the conference.
    I certainly won't accept the latter.
    
    				Steve

    
    It's amazing how some people go "overboard" trying to be so intuitive
    and serious, expressing themselves like "Dr. Joyce Brothers," having
    a stuffy and usually boring note, seemingly knowing every thing
    from the horseshoe to the space shuttle...etc, etc,...
    
    Hasn't anyone ever heard the term, "Get outta here?"
    
    Why do a hand full of noters in any conference jump the gun on every
    reply that isn't a "definition" of some "flag waving" crusade.
    
    Lighten up boys!  Damn!  Don't act like a computer!  Quit trying
    to analyze everything!  Go have a beer after work!  Shoot some pool!
    RELAX a little!  
    
    Have a coke and a smile and ...... (see eddie murphy - RAW)
    
    And to those that try to interpret what I said in this note....
    to them I say...
    
    
                             "Get Outta Here..."
    
    -Howie

    
    re: -1
    
    >>Have a coke and smile and... <<<  
    
        "Get outta here..."
    
    Have a Pepsi and smile...   :*)   ...much better.
    
    Sherm
    

    
    RE .27    NO, the moderators should NOT go getting tough about
              such phrases as "get outta here". I see it as an accecptable
              equlivent to the expression "Do you feel allright ? "
              or "How could you possibly think like that" or some other 
              reasonable fact similarly. Besides, those are expressions
              of differences of opinion, not calling someone a flaming
              A**hole jerk or the equlivent. They also are a far cry
              from a very direct statement such as "pack your shit and
              leave," or "go back to the other file."
    
              Aside from that for a second, the point here is that just 
              because some men don't see and or are experiencing these 
              thing happen to them, does not necessarily mean that they 
              don't exist. I, and others here did not consider what I 
              wrote in .0 to be whining. More so it was a statement of 
              objection to things and attitudes I see being directed 
              towards a number of people.
            
              I consider Charles's accusation and brush off that I was
              whining just as in bad taste as the others that replied
              with the "get outta here" s. And for the life of me, I
              fail to see where he was "cogent" (by my dictionary
              defined as "forcefully convincing") in any manner. It
              was more to the tune of here's the big bad man belittling
              women again. 
    
              But in finishing this, no I wouldn't do anything yet.
              to my observation this file and it participants seem
              to self regulate themselves just fine.I don't object to
              it, and I'am willing to bet that if there are complants,
              its from very few people.
                                              Bob B 

    I deleted .30 because some persons were offended by part of my note.
    
    I'd like to resubmit it later when I have time and I will not include
    the part that the persons found offensive. 
    
    I apologize for it. 
    
    As they pointed out, it was an unwise move.
    
    Sincerely,
    
    Wes

    	Boy I hate it when notes get deleted, one misses all the fire
    and excitement that note must have contained, and you lose track
    of what's happening.
    	
    	Come on Bob, admit it.  When I read .0 I knew what you had been
    doing!  You've been secretly sneaking over to Womenotes and reading
    again, haven't you. Ha!  I knew it.  I have felt just that angry
    and bitchy after reading some of the notes that get published over
    there, I recognize the feeling.  And if you had responded like this
    over there, the thought police would have handed you your head.
    Poor Charles was left to do that alone over here, and his support
    did not equal yours, so you got away with it.  
    	You are asking for a two-way street, to point out that from
    "30 something" to "Tootsie" white males are made to look like the
    jerk.  Can't be done.  You see the belief is that others have a
    more legitimate complaint, Bob, while you are just whining, complaining
    about something nobody but you care about.  Of course to believe
    this, it is necessary to ignore those of us who say we have felt
    the same way from time to time, but that has already been done!
    Rememeber there are all these silent people who have not said anything,
    and since not saying something doesn't mean they agree (ignore those
    who did say something) then they must disagree since they didn't
    say anything.  Therefore you have no support and should be ignored.
    
    	Take some practical advise.  Only read Womennotes on your strong
    days when you won't be asking for justice.  As insight into the
    logic of others it can't be beat.  This works for me.  And if your
    feelings do get ruffeled and you come here to comment on the craziness
    of it all, rememeber that anger that is prersented without the
    precipitating events is not often charitably viewed.
    
    DRC
      

    
    Bob:
    
    Your base note contained much truth and a great deal of merit.  I
    hate silent readers that won't speak up, but that's to be expected.
    You exercised your "right" to "comment" as you did...  
    
    It is easy to see where some individuals will object to your note,
    and in many cases, some will do it, possibly believing some of what
    you said, but, will tear into you to gain "favor" of others... maybe
    in this case, the wommen that love to bash men.....  It is possible.
    These are hollow noters... with nothing honest to contribute...
    They are not any different than the average politician.  It's easier
    to say what you know is appealing to others, than to say what you
    honestly believe, knowing that you may get crucified for it.
    
    NOTES need people like yourself.  There's enough "white-wash" going
    around...                                       
    
    As funny as Soapbox may seem.... it is more "real" than most any
    other conference, because people feel they can be themselves there.
    I hope it stays that way.
                                          
    
                        Well..... Nice talkin' to ya !
                                   -Howie-

RE 34

>                                -< Gotcha Bob! >-

  ?????  Whatever you perceive "Gotcha" to be, and what for is a good
         question.
    
>    	Boy I hate it when notes get deleted, one misses all the fire
>    and excitement that note must have contained, and you lose track
>    of what's happening.
 
     Yup, Ill agree with you here, especially when I didn't see anything
     wrong with the note. I thought the story of the flys was an 
     excellent analogy to what has been happening.
   	
>    	Come on Bob, admit it.  When I read .0 I knew what you had been
>    doing!  You've been secretly sneaking over to Womenotes and reading
>    again, haven't you. Ha!  I knew it.

    I don't "sneak" in or out of any note file, I occasional look at and
    respond in Womenotes, but thats no secret to anyone that also reads 
    that file. If I were a read only I might then begin to get a sense of
    what your attempting to prove. But as it stands, the logic is escaping
    me.

>    I have felt just that angry
>    and bitchy after reading some of the notes that get published over
>    there, I recognize the feeling.  And if you had responded like this
>    over there, the thought police would have handed you your head.

     I glad to see we can agree on at least one thing. Maybe you refer to 
     them as the thought police, but I think that ol'Kerry Faulkner came 
     up with the right description. The men are slime and women are fine 
     head set crowd. But, if they wind up as the thought police for the 
     files, we're all in deep sneakers.

>    Poor Charles was left to do that alone over here, and his support
>    did not equal yours, so you got away with it.

     Well considering you feel that Charles was "picked on" I now under
     stand where your sympathies lie. As far as getting away with something
     I fail to see what I did that was so "sneaky". I posted an open note
     in a public file about how I was feeling and thinking at the time.
     True, I realized, I would be conveying those thoughts to a more receptive
     audience here rather than Womenotes, but I fail to understand how or
     why that make me bad, underhanded or sneaky. But for that matter, to me
     it makes more sense to post a note in a file in which the thoughts can
     be discussed rather that receiving the insta bash treatment.  
  
>    	You are asking for a two-way street, to point out that from
>    "30 something" to "Tootsie" white males are made to look like the
>    jerk.  Can't be done. 

     And I ask you why not ??? Just what do you mean by " Can't be done" ?
     All one has to do is open their eyes and in many cases the potrail and
     accusations that all men are jerks becomes instantly visible.

>    You see the belief is that others have a
>    more legitimate complaint, Bob, while you are just whining, complaining
>    about something nobody but you care about.

     Your opinion and your entitled to it. But who's belief is it ? I mean
     what makes "their" complaint any more "legitimate" than mine ? But let's
     take this a step further, would you mind explaining why, when I make a 
     statement about something I don't think is right, that I have a need to 
     justify and or legitimize it ? Why is it that I need to do this, when in 
     retrospect it is not necessary when a woman does it ? 

     Why is it, when a man makes such a statement he is whining and complaining 
     but when a woman does it she isn't and is totally justified in doing so ? 
     Those of you who have been disagreeing with me have yet to answer these 
     questions. Its as if I have no right to express myself, yet these "wronged"
     people need no justification. I keep seeing you and others attempting to 
     justify this double standard bit, sorry I just can't buy into your logic 
     behind it. Not one of you have come up with a legitimate reason why its
     OK for them and not me or any man for that matter.  

     Charles did a wonderful gandy dance to slip out of explaining this
     back a number of reply's ago. He alluded that he didn't have the time
     or patience to enlighten us. He went on further to imply that we 
     that disagreed with him, did not have the intelligence to comprehend.
     Hence my retort to him that I knew he didn't understand the original
     note just from his reply. You see each time you imply a personal quip
     against me or a person that agrees with me only goes to show that you 
     really don't have a viable defense or countermand to the subject at 
     hand. So you do the next best thing and attempt to desecrate the author.
     Nice try, but it doesn't work. People are just too smart for that. 

     But to take this one step further, if no one but me cared about this,
     then why do I have people that agree and support my saying this ?
     Hummmm ???  What was you said to open this ? "Got cha" ... :-)
 
>    Of course to believe
>    this, it is necessary to ignore those of us who say we have felt
>    the same way from time to time, but that has already been done!

    When and where ?? I don't  believe I have seen any of your writing
    to this effect. I'de like to see examples of it.

>    Remember there are all these silent people who have not said anything,
>    and since not saying something doesn't mean they agree (ignore those
>    who did say something) then they must disagree since they didn't
>    say anything.  Therefore you have no support and should be ignored.
 
     Don't assume just because a person does not respond to this note,
     or the ideas expressed in .0 that their total sentiment is negative.
     Thats a fairly brazen attempt to tell me and them, that you know 
     exactly how "ALL" the rest of this note file think.  I can tell by 
     your reply, that you would love for me and others that are similar to 
     be ignored and go away. Then only you and your sympathizers would be 
     herd. Sorry, but I can't see my way to oblige you.
            
>    	Take some practical advise.  Only read Womenotes on your strong
>      days when you won't be asking for justice.
 
     I've come to the point of realizing that, to be a man, and seek justice
     in the Womenotes file is an exercise in futility.  
     
>    As insight into the logic of others it can't be beat.

     By your standards, maybe, but I find it HIGHLY DEBATABLE !!!!

>    This works for me.  And if your
>    feelings do get ruffeled and you come here to comment on the craziness
>    of it all, rememeber that anger that is prersented without the
>    precipitating events is not often charitably viewed.
    
     The difference here is I'am not angry, greatly disturbed by attitudes
     and events, but not angry. I'am not flaming at anyone, I've only made
     statements on things that I perceive to be an inequity in the system.
     At least here in Mennotes the attitude is to at least "hear" any author
     out on any subject whether you agree with that person or not. That is 
     NOT the case in the WN file. If you need verification of that go catch
     note 781.8 for proof. Either or ....whether you agree or disagree, thats 
     allright, myfriend, as Dillon says "Everybody must get stoned". But keep
     in mind, as someone else more famous said, "Let those of you, without 
     sin be the first one to cast a stone."

                                              Bob B 

    Life shouldn't be a one way street.
    
    We always hate in others what we don't want to admit as part of
    ourselves.
    
    

    Bob,
    
    I'm sure that your feelings expressed in .0 are genuine.  
    
    I'm not sure whether you whined or not. But while I was reading your
    note I couldn't help but feel that I wished I had your problems. I wish
    I could exchange my problems for those you articulated as being yours.
    Hold your horses! I'm not saying that your problems are irrelevant. But
    compared to mine yours seem to be a piece of cake. (maybe that is
    the reason why some may say that you whined.)
    
    I do not expect white men to suffer because of the sins of their
    forefathers. White men need not be punished for the crimes committed
    centuries ago. I do not expect them to undergo a severe guilt trip.  
    I do expect White men to acknowledge that the sins were committed.
    Hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes. So I expect white men
    to NOT commit those old sins. And it shouldn't take any bending
    over backwards to NOT commit those sins.
    
    In my opinion, many of the woman-men/black-white conflicts are a result
    of constant denials that those conflicts exist. It seems as though this
    is the source of most of the aggravations in =wm=. Just like how it
    peeved you off that there you were, baring your soul in .0, and someone
    brushed you off, other "minorities" are peeved when they express
    themselves and they are brushed off. You said that the closest you come
    to being a minority is being a Viet Vet and part American Indian. Well
    there isn't much to being a minority apart from being told that your
    present problems are a figment of your imagination.
    
    Life offers complications to all of us.  So I would imagine that
    life as a White man is no rose garden.
    
    Just my opinion, you don't have to agree.
    
    _karen

    Bob,
    	I apologize for being too obscure.  I was trying to be sarcastic.
    Others seemed to get the point, because I got several direct "mailings"
    complaining about my negative attitude towards womannotes.  I have
    written a complaint in a similar vein as yours in the past, I am
    sorry you missed it, I could have used your support.
    
    DRC
    

    
    RE: .40	Hmmmm, I thought I might have been alone receiving,
    		shall we say, unpleasant mail when I was less than
    		supportive in wn; so much so that I stopped writing
    		notes there for a while. 
    
    RE: .0 	I agree completely. Guess that makes me guilty too.
    		Of what I'm sure I'll be filled in on. 
    
    		

    BOB, 
    
    PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG ON THIS. 
    
    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT BOB WAS JUST IRRITATED WITH BEING LUMPED INTO
    THE KETTLE LABLED "CHAUVINIST" OR "RACIST" BY SIMPLY EXISTING AS
    A WHITE MALE.  I HAVE ALSO FELT THIS ANGER.  IT SEEMS THAT WHITE
    MALES ARE OFTEN FOUND GUILTY BY REASON OF ASSOCIATION.  I, AS WELL
    AS AM SURE MANY OTHER WHITE MALES, AM APPALLED AT SEXUAL HARRASSMENT,
    OR RACIAL PREJUDICE WHICH IS SEEN IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY.  THIS IS
    WHY IT IS SO UNSETTLING TO BE STEREOTYPED INTO THIS CATEGORY.  I
    FEEL THAT IT IS ONLY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO CONDONE THIS TYPE
    OF BEHAVIOR.  THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT I AM A FEMINIST BY ANY STRETCH
    OF THE IMAGINATION.  I BELIEVE THAT MEN ARE MEN AND WOMEN ARE WOMEN.
    BOTH HAVE THEIR STREGNTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND HAVE THEIR ROLES IN
    SOCIETY.  AS FAR AS THE RACE ISSUE IS CONCERNED, I FELL THAT ALL
    MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, AND THAT RACIAL PREJUDICE HAS NO PLACE IN
    OUR SOCIETY.  BACK TO THE GENDER ISSUE.  MEN CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE
    FOR THE EXPECTED ROLE OF WOMEN IN OUR SOCIETY.  IN DAYS GONE BY WOMEN TOOK
    PRIDE IN THEIR ROLES AS WOMEN.  I BELIEVE THEIR ROLES WERE JUST
    AS IMPORTANT AS THE ROLE OF ANY MALE.  IT WAS DIFFERENT BUT JUST
    AS IMPORTANT.  IT SEEMS IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY THEIR IS A HOLE WHERE
    THE MOTHER/HOUSEWIFE ONCE WAS.  MY WIFE LONGS TO STAY AT HOME WITH
    OUR 1 YEAR OLD AND MAKE OUR HOUSE A HOME.  I HOLD MUCH RESPECT AND
    ADMIRATION FOR HER WANTING TO DO THIS IN THESE TIMES OF "BEING A
    WOMEN IS DOING YOUR OWN THING".  UNFORTUNATELY, RIGHT NOW IT IS
    IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO SURVIVE ON ONE INCOME.  WE HAVE A GOAL SET
    AS TO WHEN SHE CAN BE A HOUSEWIFE.  I CAN'T WAIT.
    
                                                 IN MY HUMBLE OPINION,
                                                 MIKE

    
    -1
    
    Mike,
    
    Please take it easy on the "UPPERCASE" letters....
    
    -Dwight

re .0:

Just came in after a long hiatus.  Nothing wrong with white males other
than a tendency to whine a lot about other peoples criticism.  You want
to conquer and enslave, you pay no attention.  You want to get along,
you listen.  And adapt your behavior depending on whether the criticism
is warranted or not.

/Dave
(white male)

    I've noticed here a similar reaction to the type of comments
    in .0 that I've seen elsewhere to similar statements. That is
    that non-white and/or non-male people suggest that the white
    male consider the other groups perspective. These same people
    are unwilling or unable to do the same. That is to say that
    when they "consider" the situation of the white male they either
    fail to see the down side or dismiss it as either justifiable
    or imaginary or insignificant compared to the down side of their
    own life or the up side of the white male life. This is less then
    fair.
    
    White males who see no discrimination against them are just as
    correct as black women who see no discrimination against them. I
    can believe that they don't see it but I'm not sold on the idea
    that it isn't there.
    
    Personally I believe that we should try to bring everyone up to
    the same high level of quality of life. I'm a bit tired of people
    trying to reach equality by dragging me down from some misperceived
    high location.
    
    			Alfred

    If there were an Official Noters Glossary, I think you would see
    see the following entry:
    
        What's the difference between a whine and a legitimate concern?
        If I agree with the person making the complaint, it is a legitimate
        concern.  If I disagree, it is a whine.
    
    -- Mike        

    RE: .46 & .47
    
    here! here!
    
    
                                              mw

    
    RE:  .45
    
    
                             "Get outta here...."
    
    
    

   
   Well now that I'am back from my trip and I'am semi caught up on
   work I can reply to some of this. 
 
   RE .39  Karen,  I think at one time or another that we all feel 
   that our problems are greater that the other person and would trade
   in a heartbeat. Just how important problems are is a matter of  
   personal perception. you and I could have the same problem and, one
   thinks it slight whilst the other has grave concerns over it. It is 
   not fair for either of us (or anyone else for that matter) to make 
   the problems of another trivial in comparison to ours. So to
   put it in a nutshell we all have our own burdens to bear.

   About being a minority and being brushed off. In effect I was 
   brushed off before I wrote this note. I just got feed up with all
   the stereotyping, finger pointing and wrongs that were being directed
   at me personally and my gender in general. Thats part of the reason 
   I wrote .0
 
   My difficulty comes when I'am told that  I don't have any problems, 
   or that the ones I have have no importance in comparison to those
   of anyone than is not a white male. That is stereotyping me into a 
   perceived scenario, that is so far from the truth it's not funny.
   It denys the fact that I'am a human being just like the person next
   to me. I am NOT the supreme elitist that these people make me to be.
   I'am just a working stiff like the rest of us, trying to make ends 
   meet, and have a little happiness in my life.

   About the sins of the past and present. I'am glad you feel that 
   way. The problem, unfourtunaly is that many other don't. If you 
   are unfamiliar with things I have written, Ill repeat it here. I
   DO believe that ALL people deserve a fair shake. Equal opportunity
   for jobs, advancement, housing and the like. That there should be 
   equal pay for equal works and skillsets. That your experiences and
   problems are just as important as mine. The only discrimination I
   practice is to asociate with those people that like my company, and
   attempt to stay away from those that don't.  But while certain men deny
   that there are conflicts about these things, there are inequities on 
   the other side also. Some of things and attitudes I've seen have been...

   Equal opportunity abused by affirmative action programs in which more 
   qualified candidates are passed over by a less qualified minority candidate.

   Discussions in which opinions and experience were solicited and then
   discounted because they came from a male.

   Equal isn't good enough, and they won't settle for being equal, because
   we white males have quote/unquote set the standard for being equal and 
   it isn't really up to "our" level.

   That we constantly conspire to put people down and keep them in their 
   place. To set the agenda to our standards and not for everyone.

   I could go on, but it make no sense. I'am going to borrow off your 
   statement, "Life offers complications to all of us. So I would 
   imagine that life as a white man is no rose garden."  It isn't and
   if people put as much energy into resolving differences and problems
   as they do finger pointing on who has it made, there would be a lot 
   less troubles and more understanding in this world. I beleave that
   we are close in our opinions and a little more discussion would bear
   that out. Its the closed minded people that I lose my sense of humor
   with.

   RE .40   Sorry for the misunderstanding..Its just when you defended
   Charles, it kinda set a anti tone. 

   RE .43  BINGO... you got it

   RE .46  Outstanding reply

   RE .47  Concur.

                                 Bob B