Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    re .0
    Maybe your wife is/was skeptical about how 'the guys' goof off. 
    
    Women have 'girls night out' cause the husbands probably don't think
    that the night out will be raucous.  Come on, you guys think that
    we only gossip. That's innocent stuff.
    
    If you knew that your wife is most likely to yell and scream and
    drink beer as though there is no tomorrow on a girls-night-out would
    you want her to go?

    I hesitate to intrude Alfred, but when I was 12-14, my best friend
    and I called each other "Ugly" (it's funny you chose that example).
    
    Lee

    Alfred - Lee is not alone.  My Mother's nickname is also "Ugly",
    and doesn't even mind if her (now grown) children call her that.
    
    Elizabeth
    

>    Maybe your wife is/was skeptical about how 'the guys' goof off. 

    Anyone who doesn't trust someone when they're out of sight should
    not marry them. No, what we were going to do was/is not a concern.
    That I wanted to do something (anything) without her was. She's
    over that now but some of my friends wives aren't.
    
>        If you knew that your wife is most likely to yell and scream and
>    drink beer as though there is no tomorrow on a girls-night-out would
>    you want her to go?
    
	If I knew/thought that, I would not have married her so it'd
    be a non-issue. As I said, trust about what the activity is is not
    a worry here.
    
    		Alfred

    RE: .2 & .3 Then there's that nasty habit women seem to have about
    bringing reality into a conversation. :-)
    
    Actually I say that only half in jest. While both men and women
    are good at shooting down things with reality pills, it seems as
    though women have a harder time NOT doing so. There are times (not
    here) when reality is NOT what people want in the conversation.
    'Bull sessions' appear to have a very different flavor when to
    company is 'mixed'. Not just language (colourful or otherwise) or
    topic but some hard to explain flavor.
    
    			Alfred

         Well put, Alfred. (.0) My wife has the same double standard.
    If you ever figure them out on this (as stated in .6) please let
    us all know. Maybe some of the women who read this file can help
    explain this.
    Jeff Filer 

    
    Well, I'm no expert on this subject but it sounds like a 
    bit of insecurity to me!  Personally, I don't have this 
    problem. I need my time away from men just as a man might
    want some time away from me.  I'm not married, but in a 
    relationship and we each understand the other's need to 
    have their "space".  If I weren't "secure" in the relationship
    (knowing how he feels and how I feel) I might wonder more
    when he's "out with the guys".....but since we have such a
    great relationship, it doesn't bother me.  Especially since
    I want/need and request the same from him.  How can I ask
    him not to go out with the guys once in awhile?? ?? 
    
    	Myra

    
    What worked for me was this.....
    
    When my wife went out with friends, I always told her to have a
    good time. When she got home, I never asked anything other that
    if she had a good time. I never asked about money, where they went
    or anything.
    
    When I went out, I'd get the 3rd degree.
    
    Next time she went out, I asked her everything she asked me 
    (this part is important) in HER OWN WORDS! Then and only then
    she realized the double standard that was taking place.
    
    My experience has been that people do not like to take their
    own medicine.

    RE: How I worked it out. Simple. 10 years of marriage of which a
    year and a half was spent in counseling. Actually it was rough
    and a lot of other issues were resolved too. Getting this one worked
    out was part of an overall awareness of each others needs. Still
    I think I've got acceptance of the idea more then understanding.
    
    The method in .10 did not work with my wife, BTW.
    
    			Alfred

    Thinking about your comments, Alfred, I remember when I used to
    mostly hang out with guys (and since I was very involved with one
    of them, they seemed to treat me as something other than a young
    woman...).
    
    There were a lot of neat aspects to that time.  Even now, it is
    mostly men who give me nicknames that stick -- and with a last name
    like mine, nicknames are not hard to find: tasty chef, miss ta-too-too,
    etc, etc.  Somehow, not one of those names really offended me as
    much as someone mispronouncing my name (personal bugaboo).
    
    Seems to me you ought to have such spaces but it is tricky because
    traditionally men's clubs were a large part of the old-boy network
    which excluded us from business opportunity.  Hmmm.
    
    BTW -- would you rather that we XX types not reply to this note?
    I _can_ be quiet when asked nicely :)
    
    Lee

    
    Totally off the subject: how DO you pronounce TATISTCHEFF?
    

    RE: .12 I'm glad that women are replying here. Communication
    with women is important to resolve male/female issues. 
    
    Regards to old-boy network. Yes, that is a concern but male
    gatherings need not always wind up that way. I read the other
    day about men only clubs in the Basque region of Spain. It seems
    that men go there just to cook and eat gourmet food. Sounds great
    to me.
    
    			Alfred

    re: .13
    
    Carefully. :-)
    
    I don't run into the feelings expressed in the basenote, but then
    again, most of my friends are male, and I'm not seriously involved
    with a woman, so...
    
    However, I do understand them -- I've seen it manifest itself in
    other people's relationships.  The phrase "temporary vacation from
    women" might ruffle a few feathers, I suppose.  I understand the
    need to go and come back, though.                  
    
    DFW

    re .13
    
    tuh-TEEsh-jeff                                 fresh-cheese
           ^^^^ ---> similar consonant sound as in--> ^^^^^
    
    The French usually get it right, but anglophones have a tough time.
    
    Steve Lionel pronounced it right the first time we met, but he had
    a good teacher (my dad taught math in his high school, and yes Steve,
    he does remember you he says and sends his greetings).
    
    Lee

    
    re: -16  Wondered if pronouncing the "T" in the middle was the trick.
    Those vowels are pretty slippery too -- "uh" for "ah" and "EE" for
    "eh," really now. ;^}
    
    On the topic. From 16 to 26 I had men's company most of the time. We
    took cross-country trips, camped, played games, watched games, went
    to concerts, the beach, the usual...we ran in various packs, sometimes
    mixed with women, other times not. I was in & out of college or
    inbetween jobs, depending on what you valued, and generally had
    my own way. I had never lived with a woman in any kind of formal
    way, not as a committment at least, until I met my match & married
    her. Last year my brother, still batching at 31, asked me if I missed
    my freedom. We have two children & are pretty housebound, so if
    there's money to get away we must share (if either of us left alone
    the other would commit murder 8^}), so the notion of being away
    in the old sense -- I used to just go -- has pretty much become
    a memory. I said no, I didn't miss my freedom, because I remember
    when my father dropped by once. I was 25 and living in a nice
    apartment, doing better day by day at work, and was not having a
    terrible time at night by any means. We got to talking & after a
    time I found I didn't want him to leave, which he realized. Later,
    after I was married, he said he thought he had never seen anyone
    look so lonely, which was quite true. When I met Irene I knew that
    had I surrendered that part of my freedom, though I think I found
    another in peace of mind. I think it more so now because my mother
    died last year, and now I see a very lonely man, and realize what
    the pairing brings, & what it takes away. 
    
    

re .12  (Lee)
    
>    BTW -- would you rather that we XX types not reply to this note?
>    I _can_ be quiet when asked nicely :)
    

Could you also raise some H*LL from time to time.  Got to keep us
"boys" on our toes you know.

- Howard

    
    I have a question for all you men who have problems with your
    wife letting you out.  Did you have the "boys night out" when
    you two were dating??  I'll bet most of you had the same problem
    before you were married. So why did you marry them??
    
    Well I guess that's really beside the point.  Have you tried to
    sit down and seriously discuss it with your wife?  I mean *really*
    tell her how you feel and then *listen* to her and what she has
    to say?  If it is really important to you and the two of you
    are able to work through problems, I can't see why it's so impossible.
    
    I personally can't stand to be around *anyone* constantly.  Nobody
    can satisfy all my needs.  I need outside male and female friends.
    I wouldn't have too much problem with my husband (if I were
    married) going out for dinner with a female friend.  As for the
    "boys night out", I would insist upon it!

    
    Donna
    
    

    re .18
    
�     Could you also raise some H*LL from time to time.  Got to keep us
�     "boys" on our toes you know.
    
    Surely you jest, Howard.  ME?!? raise TROUBLE?!?
    
    Naaaaah, never happen.       :)
    
    Lee

    I think that one thing that may cause problems and hurt feelings
    about people needing night out with friends away from spouse is
    that often when people first meet and fall in love they want to
    be together all the time.  They go through a period of time when
    they are so enthralled with each other's existence that they really
    don't need or miss other friends, so they may get in the habit of
    spending all of their free time together, or together with mutual
    friends or family.  Then, after a period of time the "honeymoon"
    phase of the relationship ends, and people sort of go back to a
    more well balanced need for other friends and activities, as well
    as time with their SO.  If this "honeymoon" period ended at exactly
    the same time for both people there might not be a problem.  But,
    unfortunately (as in falling out of love) it usually doesn't happen
    at the same time for both people.  One person can still be happily
    involved in the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship really not
    needing or thinking about making plans with other friends when all
    of a sudden the other person says they'd like to go out with some
    of their old friends and no you really aren't invited.  Right away
    the person still in the "honeymoon" phase might think, But we've
    been together constantly for the past year, and now he wants to
    go somewhere without me.  Maybe he doesn't love me anymore.  Is
    he really going to meet another woman?  I still want to be with
    him all the time, why doesn't he want to be with me all the time?
     Eventually, I would think that the other person would start to
    want other friends, too.
    
    One way of dealing with it is to tell the other person that you
    can't provide all of the entertainment that another person needs
    in their life, that you have other needs, that you feel controlled
    and that you just won't accept it, and that if the other person
    can't accept this and back off you might be forced to end the
    relationship or at least change it, like not live together anymore.
     The other person will be very hurt at first but if they are really
    in love with you, and don't want the relationship to end, they'll
    get the hint.  They might even start making some plans of their
    own.
    
    Lorna
    

    reply .21
    AMEN lorna!

maybe women just can't believe that men can survive
without them...even for one night ;-)

tlr

    I think some very good points have already been made, so I'll try
    not to repeat.
    
    I've never had a problem with my SO over this because I know that
    I need my time with womenfriends as much as I need my time with
    him.  The reverse must be true for him too, I imagine.
    
    To those of you men who *are* having trouble with your wives, I
    think the point brought up about insecurity it very important. 
    Your wife or girlfriend may know she's loved, but she may not *feel*
    it.
    
    I suggest that you try to before and after your times out with
    the other menfolk, make your wife/SO feel very special, sweeten
    her up with whatever charm it was that got her to marry you in the
    first place.  When you plan on a time out with your menfriends,
    also plan a special time to be with her at some later time.  I do
    mean *plan* something, don't just say you're willing to do something
    with her.  Tell her what you have in mind, make reservations, or
    whatever.  This will show her that you are sincere.
    
    Of course, I'm just telling you what would work for me.
    
    	-Ellen

    
    Well put .26
    
    I would caution men about being too sweet when they get home that
    night as it may arouse undue suspicion.