Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    RIGHT ON !!!!!!! Alfred, I second that emotion.
    

    obviously the eagle is buckin for the male rep spot.
    
    

    re .0:
    
    I wasn't aware that any of the recent clubs were being forced to
    admit women.  All they have to do is give up selling liquor and
    food to non-members on a commercial basis.  The reason most of them
    caved in is that they were not really private.  Their operation
    as a semi-public restaurant subsidized the operation of the club.
    
    If I understand correctly, a private club funded completely by the
    members is still quite possible for those who really need to "get
    away".

    /Dave

    RE: .2 I think we are basically in agreement. My point is that
    to be for a woman only anything and not to be for a men only
    that same thing is hypocrisy. I'd like to see people agree
    that men and women both need their own "space". So far I have
    little to indicate that women think that men need their own
    space.
    
    			Alfred

.7>    -< Is this some sort of internalized mass guilt trip? >-

    On the part of women? or men?
    
.7>    	When women are admitted into "male only" clubs, how many
.7>    	of them immediately set out to totally disrupt the activities
.7>    	and make it impossible for men to ever have a moment's peace
.7>    	again?

    The serious answer is all women who are admitted into "male only"
    clubs disrupt the activities and make it impossible for men ever
    to be apart from women. Any woman who enters a male only club has
    by that very action destroyed the old definition of the club.
    
    RE: Some women actually saying that they don't want men in WOMANNOTES.
    I am well aware that it is only a small minority of women who are
    calling for a women only conference. Those women don't bother me.
    Assuming that they would also support a men only conference. Do
    they? Or are they hypocrites? The other women, who don't actively
    promote a women only file, who don't denounce the idea of a woman
    only file. Would they sit quietly by while a men only conference
    was suggested or would they cry discrimination? Since they are sitting
    quietly by (no one is yelling sex discrimination in WOMANNOTES)
    I have to assume that they do not consider the idea discrimination.
    I do wonder how they'd feel about a men only conference.
    
    				Alfred

>    So why not start one Alfred ???  if a title is a problem ...

    Because I like my job and I firmly believe that opening a
    restricted to men only conference would be harmful to my staying
    part of the salary continuation plan. I don't believe that a
    woman only conference would run into that problem. Thus my
    complaint.
    
    			Alfred

    I think a men's only conference run the same way as womannotes would
    be fine, if its members felt it was of value to be run that way.
    
    Here are some of the things I *would* object to:  A Pascal conference,
    for example, that was for men only.  I might *need* some of that
    information and I will have been restricted unnecessarily so!  The
    same goes for a sports, work-related, or any other general interest
    conference.
    
    Do men want a men-only conference to discuss their feelings,
    experiences as men, relationships, or whatever-else-is-on-your-mind,
    like womannotes?  If so, I say go for it.  *I* can respect that.
    
    BTW, aren't male support groups starting to pop up?  Men are trying
    to learn together how to have better relationships with their spouses,
    children, friends, nowadays.  I think this men-only space is an
    excellent idea in this respect.
    
    	-Ellen

    re .9
    Alfred, Why - just becuase I do not prefer a woman only notes file
    - should I feel obliged to protest every time a woman says she
    wants a woman only file? 
    Bonnie

     A question, specifically to Ellen G and Suzanne C, but also to
     anyone else who would not object to a men-only conference:
     
     Would you object to a conference open only to white people?
     
     If so, how do you explain objecting to race-basded membership
     restrictions but not gender-based restrictions?
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    RE: .14 Bonnie, you miss state my point. If you do not prefer
    a woman only notes file but have no problem with it (ie do
    not consider it unfair discrimination) then you should not
    feel the need to protest. On the other hand, if you do believe
    it is discrimination then you have the obligation to speak out
    against it as you would any other discrimination.
    
    			Alfred

    re.15 
    define "white"
    

    re .15:
    
    Interesting question.  I know I would not object to a black
    people-only conference, but offhand I cannot see any purpose behind
    a white people-only conference.  I outlined the conditions I think
    would be okay for a men-only conference.  I can't come up with any
    for a white-only conference.
    
    	-Ellen

             
    Alfred,
    
    I will never be a moderator of a conference that exludes people
    on the basis of sex, or race or anything else. 
    
    However, I think that the people who write to the conference of which
    I am a comoderator have the right to express their opinions unless
    and until they become offensive to other people. Therefore I do
    not feel that I have to rush in when someone expresses an opinion
    or feeling that I do not agree with. I will speak out when I see 
    people making what *I feel*� are blatantly biased remarks ( and I 
    think that anyone who has "known me" in notes over the past year 
    would agree that I have done so frequently). Perhaps the difference 
    is in what each of us considers to be a prejudiced remark.
    
    Personally I would be happy to have Kerry write in womannotes if
    he could grow in grace an wisdom and find a new gift of expressing
    himself without putting his foot in his mouth all the time.
    
    I am also happy for the women who express more militantly feminist 
    attitudes than I do. although I have not had life experiences that
    have brought me to the kind of anger and frustration that many of
    them express. But at times I feel like my middle class Black friends
    have told me they felt at the rage of the ghetto dwellers....I support
    them, I understand where their rage is coming from, I do not agree
    with everything they say or do...but I support their right to speak
    out, (as I support anyone's right to speak out).
    
    I rather doubt that the two disparate types we are talking about
    will ever be able to coexist....but if womansnotes has fail in trying
    to work to that goal then I am a major reason for that because I
    tried to mediate the situation and see if this time it was a
    possibility
    
    
    Bonnie

       Al, how come as I read the notes listing I see some private
    conferences? What is the difference?
    
                       REK
    
    Didn't I put something like this in women notes?????

Each person in Digital should have her/his own notes file.

This would eliminate the glut of unsolvable problems which are
encountered when people exchange ideas. 

	~Mike

    What seems to have been missed by those advocating conferences
    restricted to only a certain class of people (be it by gender, race,
    sexual preference, hair color, whatever) is that the conferences
    exist on computer systems and the network of Digital Equipment
    Corporation.  Any attempt to create a conference where a certain
    class of employees was systematically excluded would be stopped
    cold by the corporation.  And for good reason, in my view.
    
    Yes, there exist restricted conferences.  I am not aware of any
    of these that systematically deny membership to a certain group
    of employees; the restriction is to increase the privacy of the
    contents of the conference.  For example, the restricted conference
    for gay Digital employees warmly admits noters of all sexual
    preferences; the restricted nature of the conference discourages
    malicious browsers.
    
    There is indeed an analogy between DEC conferences and "clubs" that
    receive some form of public support.  In neither case is discrimination
    tolerated.
    
    Personally, I will strongly object to any attempt to create a
    men-only or women-only conference.  I see no place for such a thing
    on our network, or anywhere else for that matter.
    
    This topic started out on an acceptable topic - mainly a discussion
    in general of men wanting to have their own space.  It seems
    to degenerated once again into a discussion of another conference
    and certain noters.  If someone wishes to restart the topic along
    the original line, I welcome it.  Further replies to this topic
    are disabled.
    
    					Steve